Is Nadal still undefeated in GS when not injured?

[Front242]

Come on, you're going crazy online here. Del Potro? You obviously didn't watch the match. Rafa asked for assistance after he'd just reached set point.

What about the MTO in the Wimbledon final in 2007, you always ignore that one. Why? Because you have an agenda and it doesn't square with this one.

You hate Rafa, we get it. But that's your problem, not his, or ours...

I don't have any agenda here. I as pointed out already I don't approve of any player abusing the rules or taking too long for a minor issue that didn't exist not only for the rest of the match, but the rest of the tournament. It's the umpire's fault but Rafa went along with it naturally enough, nice guy that he is. That MTO wouldn't have been needed if they saw to his absolutely destroyed beyond belief (not) foot at the change of ends after the set was over, which would've been the fairer thing to do I'm sure you'll agree.

I don't think you have an agenda, Front, per se, though you don't like Rafa. There you are within your rights, especially as a Roger man. However, I think you've bought into a narrative about Rafa that is out-sized compared to the amount it has been used, or to what deleterious effect. As TsarMatt points out, Del Potro took one at the USO, and nary a peep. In fact, Del Potro has injury issues, and the forums are generally sympathetic to him. Why? Because he's not as much of a threat, and the debate is between the Big 2-3 of our era for history.

I don't know if you noticed that I mentioned the MTO that Djokovic took after losing a set in the 2011 USO final. I know Roger rarely takes them, but he did in the 2005 AO SF v. Safin after losing the 4th set. He had his back worked on. Surely that was a heavy-hitting match. But gamesmanship? If it had been Nadal, you would have said yes. I'd say that top players who go deep into tournaments, year in and year out, probably suffer niggles worth looking at to keep a match going that needn't be match-enders. Rafa isn't the only one of the top guys who has availed himself of it.

I hadn't even bothered reading any more here 'cos Nadal fans can do nothing but defend everything he does. Apparently he doesn't even pout. Unreal. Anyway, I've no idea what the MTO Djokovic took has to do with anything seeing as it was genuine and he was serving WTA style for all of the 4th set. I cut Rafa some slack last weekend as he had a similar back issue like Novak in that US Open 2011 match and both were genuine. The issue that was being discussed in this thread was dodgy MTOs where Nadal had no movement differences before or after the MTO so they seemed tactical, which is low down cheating. Bending of the rules if you prefer as it's within the rules but frankly it's just a polite form of cheating to reverse a bad situation where you're losing using whatever means at your disposal.

I've no respect for ANY player abusing MTOs, not just Nadal but frankly he's been the worst I've ever seen and watching footage of the matches in question doesn't change my mind one iota. He was moving fine and losing so he needed a solution so he abused the system. Blame the umpires for allowing it, but he should also have the decency to know better. But clearly winning comes before sportsmanship and common decency and respect.

Defend him all you like, Wimbledon 2010 first 2 matches and Hamburg 2008 final he was really taking the mick and likewise with his toilet break before Roger served for the Indian Wells final. Knowing many Nadal fans that will probably be defended too :nono And for the record I've yet to see a match where Roger took a timeout where his back didn't appear stiff or movement in some way hampered and that is the difference.

 

[Moxie]

Come on, you're going crazy online here. Del Potro? You obviously didn't watch the match. Rafa asked for assistance after he'd just reached set point.

What about the MTO in the Wimbledon final in 2007, you always ignore that one. Why? Because you have an agenda and it doesn't square with this one.

You hate Rafa, we get it. But that's your problem, not his, or ours...

I don't have any agenda here. I as pointed out already I don't approve of any player abusing the rules or taking too long for a minor issue that didn't exist not only for the rest of the match, but the rest of the tournament. It's the umpire's fault but Rafa went along with it naturally enough, nice guy that he is. That MTO wouldn't have been needed if they saw to his absolutely destroyed beyond belief (not) foot at the change of ends after the set was over, which would've been the fairer thing to do I'm sure you'll agree.

I don't think you have an agenda, Front, per se, though you don't like Rafa. There you are within your rights, especially as a Roger man. However, I think you've bought into a narrative about Rafa that is out-sized compared to the amount it has been used, or to what deleterious effect. As TsarMatt points out, Del Potro took one at the USO, and nary a peep. In fact, Del Potro has injury issues, and the forums are generally sympathetic to him. Why? Because he's not as much of a threat, and the debate is between the Big 2-3 of our era for history.

I don't know if you noticed that I mentioned the MTO that Djokovic took after losing a set in the 2011 USO final. I know Roger rarely takes them, but he did in the 2005 AO SF v. Safin after losing the 4th set. He had his back worked on. Surely that was a heavy-hitting match. But gamesmanship? If it had been Nadal, you would have said yes. I'd say that top players who go deep into tournaments, year in and year out, probably suffer niggles worth looking at to keep a match going that needn't be match-enders. Rafa isn't the only one of the top guys who has availed himself of it.

I hadn't even bothered reading any more here 'cos Nadal fans can do nothing but defend everything he does. Apparently he doesn't even pout. Unreal. Anyway, I've no idea what the MTO Djokovic took has to do with anything seeing as it was genuine and he was serving WTA style for all of the 4th set. I cut Rafa some slack last weekend as he had a similar back issue like Novak in that US Open 2011 match and both were genuine. The issue that was being discussed in this thread was dodgy MTOs where Nadal had no movement differences before or after the MTO so they seemed tactical, which is low down cheating. Bending of the rules if you prefer as it's within the rules but frankly it's just a polite form of cheating to reverse a bad situation where you're losing using whatever means at your disposal.

I've no respect for ANY player abusing MTOs, not just Nadal but frankly he's been the worst I've ever seen and watching footage of the matches in question doesn't change my mind one iota. He was moving fine and losing so he needed a solution so he abused the system. Blame the umpires for allowing it, but he should also have the decency to know better. But clearly winning comes before sportsmanship and common decency and respect.

Defend him all you like, Wimbledon 2010 first 2 matches and Hamburg 2008 final he was really taking the mick and likewise with his toilet break before Roger served for the Indian Wells final. Knowing many Nadal fans that will probably be defended too :nono And for the record I've yet to see a match where Roger took a timeout where his back didn't appear stiff or movement in some way hampered and that is the difference.

The issue is that even if there were dodgy time outs, they were long ago. And there have been other players do the same, including Federer. You're trying too hard to make Nadal the bad guy on this issue. Note what you said above (which I bolded) about Djokovic's MTO having nothing to do with this argument, as it was "legitimate." Well, how prejudiced does that sound? And you don't address the MTO that I mention Roger took v. Marat in 2005. Legitimate, again, I'm sure. But anything that a Nadal fan has to say about a MTO, or injury, is fan-ishness, and not worthy of defense.

 

[Federberg]

Let's just agree we're never going to agree. To be honest, the argument seems less about what specific players do, and more about what some fans find to be acceptable behaviour, and what's not. I find that more interesting..

I was a bit put out with Roger in his match against Davydenko a few years back in the AO, similarly against Murray in Shanghai. For me.. I'm a fan of the tennis first and foremost. I don't have to love everything my player does. Mac certainly made me very uncomfortable back in the day. I just find the type of fandom that gives carte blanche a little... odd

 

[brokenshoelace]

People will find anything to complain about.

 

[Front242]

Come on, you're going crazy online here. Del Potro? You obviously didn't watch the match. Rafa asked for assistance after he'd just reached set point.

What about the MTO in the Wimbledon final in 2007, you always ignore that one. Why? Because you have an agenda and it doesn't square with this one.

You hate Rafa, we get it. But that's your problem, not his, or ours...

I don't have any agenda here. I as pointed out already I don't approve of any player abusing the rules or taking too long for a minor issue that didn't exist not only for the rest of the match, but the rest of the tournament. It's the umpire's fault but Rafa went along with it naturally enough, nice guy that he is. That MTO wouldn't have been needed if they saw to his absolutely destroyed beyond belief (not) foot at the change of ends after the set was over, which would've been the fairer thing to do I'm sure you'll agree.

I don't think you have an agenda, Front, per se, though you don't like Rafa. There you are within your rights, especially as a Roger man. However, I think you've bought into a narrative about Rafa that is out-sized compared to the amount it has been used, or to what deleterious effect. As TsarMatt points out, Del Potro took one at the USO, and nary a peep. In fact, Del Potro has injury issues, and the forums are generally sympathetic to him. Why? Because he's not as much of a threat, and the debate is between the Big 2-3 of our era for history.

I don't know if you noticed that I mentioned the MTO that Djokovic took after losing a set in the 2011 USO final. I know Roger rarely takes them, but he did in the 2005 AO SF v. Safin after losing the 4th set. He had his back worked on. Surely that was a heavy-hitting match. But gamesmanship? If it had been Nadal, you would have said yes. I'd say that top players who go deep into tournaments, year in and year out, probably suffer niggles worth looking at to keep a match going that needn't be match-enders. Rafa isn't the only one of the top guys who has availed himself of it.

I hadn't even bothered reading any more here 'cos Nadal fans can do nothing but defend everything he does. Apparently he doesn't even pout. Unreal. Anyway, I've no idea what the MTO Djokovic took has to do with anything seeing as it was genuine and he was serving WTA style for all of the 4th set. I cut Rafa some slack last weekend as he had a similar back issue like Novak in that US Open 2011 match and both were genuine. The issue that was being discussed in this thread was dodgy MTOs where Nadal had no movement differences before or after the MTO so they seemed tactical, which is low down cheating. Bending of the rules if you prefer as it's within the rules but frankly it's just a polite form of cheating to reverse a bad situation where you're losing using whatever means at your disposal.

I've no respect for ANY player abusing MTOs, not just Nadal but frankly he's been the worst I've ever seen and watching footage of the matches in question doesn't change my mind one iota. He was moving fine and losing so he needed a solution so he abused the system. Blame the umpires for allowing it, but he should also have the decency to know better. But clearly winning comes before sportsmanship and common decency and respect.

Defend him all you like, Wimbledon 2010 first 2 matches and Hamburg 2008 final he was really taking the mick and likewise with his toilet break before Roger served for the Indian Wells final. Knowing many Nadal fans that will probably be defended too :nono And for the record I've yet to see a match where Roger took a timeout where his back didn't appear stiff or movement in some way hampered and that is the difference.

The issue is that even if there were dodgy time outs, they were long ago. And there have been other players do the same, including Federer. You're trying too hard to make Nadal the bad guy on this issue. Note what you said above (which I bolded) about Djokovic's MTO having nothing to do with this argument, as it was "legitimate." Well, how prejudiced does that sound? And you don't address the MTO that I mention Roger took v. Marat in 2005. Legitimate, again, I'm sure. But anything that a Nadal fan has to say about a MTO, or injury, is fan-ishness, and not worthy of defense.

Actually I did address Fed's MTOs, you just didn't read what I typed. See above. Anytime Federer has ever taken an MTO it was obvious his back looked stiff and rigid or his movement was clearly hampered. Now compare that to Nadal running around like a gazelle before and after. It's night and day difference sorry. Re the Djokovic one, it doesn't sound at all prejudiced as he was serving very, very slowing in the 4th set and his movement was off, anyone could see that and I compared that to Nadal's legit one last weekend, which seemingly you also didn't read. Both of those were acceptable, legit and both players clearly had issues with their backs.

At least you didn't try and defend the toilet break at Indian Wells 2012 before Roger served for the match...

 

[Federberg]

Actually I did address Fed's MTOs, you just didn't read what I typed. See above. Anytime Federer has ever taken an MTO it was obvious his back looked stiff and rigid or his movement was clearly hampered. Now compare that to Nadal running around like a gazelle before and after. It's night and day difference sorry. Re the Djokovic one, it doesn't sound at all prejudiced as he was serving very, very slowing in the 4th set and his movement was off, anyone could see that and I compared that to Nadal's legit one last weekend, which seemingly you also didn't read. Both of those were acceptable, legit and both players clearly had issues with their backs.

At least you didn't try and defend the toilet break at Indian Wells 2012 before Roger served for the match...

I've always had a huge problem with the whole.. "I'm injured" one minute, then the next minute running around like Usain Bolt. Frankly I'm amazed that others don't have the same issue. It's like diving in football. Just don't like it. It's.. slimy.

Special note for Novak, Murray and Delpo as guys who one minute look ok, then they start acting as if they've been shot, only to pick up again later. Supremely irritating. But it gets worse when MTO's are used tactically..

 

[Front242]

Precisely. Diving in football is why I no longer watch football. Embarrassing to see grown men fly through the air like they're auditioning for the next Superman (yes you Ronaldo and Drogba) and then rolling around on the ground holding their hands over their faces like they've been kicked in the face by Bob Sapp. Totally embarrassing behaviour for grown men who are about as manly as a 10 year old girl. Klinsmann started off the whole diving craze but guys like Ronaldo and Drogba took it to a whole new level and ruined the sport imo.

Spelt precisely as preciously like a tool yesterday! ROFL!

 

[Moxie]

I don't have any agenda here. I as pointed out already I don't approve of any player abusing the rules or taking too long for a minor issue that didn't exist not only for the rest of the match, but the rest of the tournament. It's the umpire's fault but Rafa went along with it naturally enough, nice guy that he is. That MTO wouldn't have been needed if they saw to his absolutely destroyed beyond belief (not) foot at the change of ends after the set was over, which would've been the fairer thing to do I'm sure you'll agree.

I don't think you have an agenda, Front, per se, though you don't like Rafa. There you are within your rights, especially as a Roger man. However, I think you've bought into a narrative about Rafa that is out-sized compared to the amount it has been used, or to what deleterious effect. As TsarMatt points out, Del Potro took one at the USO, and nary a peep. In fact, Del Potro has injury issues, and the forums are generally sympathetic to him. Why? Because he's not as much of a threat, and the debate is between the Big 2-3 of our era for history.

I don't know if you noticed that I mentioned the MTO that Djokovic took after losing a set in the 2011 USO final. I know Roger rarely takes them, but he did in the 2005 AO SF v. Safin after losing the 4th set. He had his back worked on. Surely that was a heavy-hitting match. But gamesmanship? If it had been Nadal, you would have said yes. I'd say that top players who go deep into tournaments, year in and year out, probably suffer niggles worth looking at to keep a match going that needn't be match-enders. Rafa isn't the only one of the top guys who has availed himself of it.

I hadn't even bothered reading any more here 'cos Nadal fans can do nothing but defend everything he does. Apparently he doesn't even pout. Unreal. Anyway, I've no idea what the MTO Djokovic took has to do with anything seeing as it was genuine and he was serving WTA style for all of the 4th set. I cut Rafa some slack last weekend as he had a similar back issue like Novak in that US Open 2011 match and both were genuine. The issue that was being discussed in this thread was dodgy MTOs where Nadal had no movement differences before or after the MTO so they seemed tactical, which is low down cheating. Bending of the rules if you prefer as it's within the rules but frankly it's just a polite form of cheating to reverse a bad situation where you're losing using whatever means at your disposal.

I've no respect for ANY player abusing MTOs, not just Nadal but frankly he's been the worst I've ever seen and watching footage of the matches in question doesn't change my mind one iota. He was moving fine and losing so he needed a solution so he abused the system. Blame the umpires for allowing it, but he should also have the decency to know better. But clearly winning comes before sportsmanship and common decency and respect.

Defend him all you like, Wimbledon 2010 first 2 matches and Hamburg 2008 final he was really taking the mick and likewise with his toilet break before Roger served for the Indian Wells final. Knowing many Nadal fans that will probably be defended too :nono And for the record I've yet to see a match where Roger took a timeout where his back didn't appear stiff or movement in some way hampered and that is the difference.

The issue is that even if there were dodgy time outs, they were long ago. And there have been other players do the same, including Federer. You're trying too hard to make Nadal the bad guy on this issue. Note what you said above (which I bolded) about Djokovic's MTO having nothing to do with this argument, as it was "legitimate." Well, how prejudiced does that sound? And you don't address the MTO that I mention Roger took v. Marat in 2005. Legitimate, again, I'm sure. But anything that a Nadal fan has to say about a MTO, or injury, is fan-ishness, and not worthy of defense.

Actually I did address Fed's MTOs, you just didn't read what I typed. See above. Anytime Federer has ever taken an MTO it was obvious his back looked stiff and rigid or his movement was clearly hampered. Now compare that to Nadal running around like a gazelle before and after. It's night and day difference sorry. Re the Djokovic one, it doesn't sound at all prejudiced as he was serving very, very slowing in the 4th set and his movement was off, anyone could see that and I compared that to Nadal's legit one last weekend, which seemingly you also didn't read. Both of those were acceptable, legit and both players clearly had issues with their backs.

At least you didn't try and defend the toilet break at Indian Wells 2012 before Roger served for the match...

If you call that a response. It was so vague that I didn't, personally. Just briefly and dismissively calling the above examples "legitimate," which is your opinion, isn't really engaging in debate, now, is it? It's all your opinion, and clearly, nothing is going to sway it.

 

[Front242]

Right then, did Nadal's running appear any less gazelle-like before and after the MTOs against Haase and Petzschner at Wimbledon 2010? To anyone I've asked, the answer was a resounding no, and that they appeared to be mere tactical ploys to regain the lead and the same with Hamburg. I actually watched that Hamburg 2008 final first set again a few days ago and there didn't appear to be any difference in Nadal's movement before or after and that's not just my opinion as Broken also stated he believed that was a bogus MTO.

And calling the examples of last week's final and USO Djokovic 4th set above legit would be backed up any of tennis fans here no matter who they support as I'm sure all will agree Djokovic and Nadal don't really opt to serve a set around 70-80mph unless there's clearly a physical impairment, which there was in both cases of that US Open 2011 MTO by Djokovic and Nadal's last weekend. Both clearly had back problems that were affecting their game. That's an observation by anyone who watches tennis, not an opinion. These guys both normally serve on average 30mph faster than that.

However, the matches cited in the first paragraph appeared dodgy as hell to anyone I've discussed them with outside this forum, with even 2 Nadal fans admitting they saw no movement issues either. Backed up by Petzschner too who was quoted as saying "I'd like this kind of injury if I could run like that" and he also remarked he believed Nadal could run/play for another 3 sets. Clearly he could 'cos he went on to the final..

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

Did anyone remember Delpo's timeout at the AO this year in his losing match? Didn't he have a shower? He got a pretty gentle pass on that. Now, if it were Nadal...

looks like tsar bomba ?..the most powerful nuclear bomb detonation ever. (1961).

Fedfan International Headquarters, 21:15 BST, Sunday, July 6, 2008

lol wut..:snigger good job it didn't really go off over Wimbledon..a 50-55mt thermonuclear explosion might have damaged the court slightly, and the blast might have knocked rafa's water bottles over.

 

[atttomole]

Preciously. Diving in football is why I no longer watch football. Embarrassing to see grown men fly through the air like they're auditioning for the next Superman (yes you Ronaldo and Drogba) and then rolling around on the ground holding their hands over their faces like they've been kicked in the face by Bob Sapp. Totally embarrassing behaviour for grown men who are about as manly as a 10 year old girl. Klinsmann started off the whole diving craze but guys like Ronaldo and Drogba took it to a whole new level and ruined the sport imo.

Which is a favorite football team Front?

 

[atttomole]

Preciously. Diving in football is why I no longer watch football. Embarrassing to see grown men fly through the air like they're auditioning for the next Superman (yes you Ronaldo and Drogba) and then rolling around on the ground holding their hands over their faces like they've been kicked in the face by Bob Sapp. Totally embarrassing behaviour for grown men who are about as manly as a 10 year old girl. Klinsmann started off the whole diving craze but guys like Ronaldo and Drogba took it to a whole new level and ruined the sport imo.

Which is a favorite football team Front?

Sorry, I meant to say which is your favorite football (soccer) team.

 

[Front242]

No favourite team, attomole. Gave up watching years ago. When it comes to the world cup though I like Brazil for their attacking skills although even in the past with their strongest side, their defense was always a bit lacking. And ps, I've updated my post you quoted above so the first word is precisely instead of preciously haha. I must have been half asleep/braindead typing that!

 

[atttomole]

I guess tennis took over from football for you. You have been bewitched by the Great One, but I would not blame you. The Great One has been magical on court for decade.