Is Federer the biggest choker among ATGs?

Is he?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • No

    Votes: 6 50.0%
  • Of course

    Votes: 4 33.3%

  • Total voters
    12

MikeOne

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Djokovic hasn’t surpassed Nadal in h2h in the goat debate. The flawed logic is that everyone speaks about “slam titles” over “overall titles” but then when it comes to head to head you guys use the “overall h2h” Instead of the “slam h2h”. You can’t have it both ways. If what matters most are the slam titles then what matters most are also the slam h2h and RAFA leads both 9-6 and 10-4.

valid point but does it matter that this is partly to do with the many times Rafa has beaten them at RG?

Also, it's not apples to apples. Comparing their non-slam wins is not exactly the same as looking at H2H in non-slams. This implies they had to go through each other in all of these wins, they didn't.

H2H is important... let's not diminish that. Of course, to your point, H2H in slams is more important but overall h2h is an important stat.
 

Moxie

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Djokovic passed them in H2H within weeks of each other in 2016 actually. And it's fine if you think Roger is on sauce, it's a bit rich coming from a Nadal fan. Roger can still go 4-5 hours one match, he struggles to recover after a tough 5 setter unlike a couple guys. And also his game isn't anywhere near as physical as Nadal or Djokovic.
Yes, but Djoker tied Roger a couple of times without passing him, but never Nadal until after Roger, IIRC. It's not at all rich for me to imply what you think I am. It's rich that it offends you, given as often as you do it to Nadal. If you didn't have such a one-track mind, you'd see the irony.
 

MikeOne

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Mike, there is a lot of bullshit in here. And certainly no nuance or understanding of the machinations between the 3 over the past 12-15 years. Firstly, you're lumping early Nadal beating Roger, with early Novak beating him once or twice. That's a false equivalency, and I'm sure you know it. On top of that, the moments and years when each has been best aren't just exactly age-equivalent. The rest is just useless flourish, as well. Don Fabio told you about the legal drinking age in Serbia, and I can confirm about the legal drinking age in Spain, so you can stop using that one. You're here to down-grade Roger, and I think everyone knows that. It's not even like you show up regularly.

stop trying to be voice of reason sometimes, i have seen you do this... you get into arguments with Darth and then counter someone like me as 'hey, wait, i'm reasonable'

My point is VALID. When Darth mentions that Roger is OLD and that he is beating Nadal and Djokovic when he should be retired, what do you think he means? He means, very obvious, that 04-07 Fed would DOMINATE today's Novak and Nadal. What i argue and you should be smart enough to recognize this, is that it's not that simple. I never said Nadal and Djokovic, in their teen years, were dominating Federer, what i said is that they were giving him problems and they were. Nadal, at 18, straight stetted Federer on hard courts in 05 and Djokovic, at 19, beat Federer in a masters final, in 07. Djokovic then straight setted Fed in 08 AO, all this WAY before his prime. So what does this mean? If pre prime Novak and Nadal were already starting to give Fed hell... is Darth right that 04-07 Fed would dominate today's versions of them? NOT THAT SIMPLE. There are complicated dynamics at play here. Maybe Fed's 04-07 game wasn't better suited to handle today's Nadal and Novak, even if he was younger. Maybe today's 'OLD' Fed is older but has adjusted his game over many years to better handle Nadal, clearly he's had success. These guys make adjustments, Nadal was thoroughly OWNED by Novak in 11-12, he then made adjustments, over years. Similarly, Nadal owned Federer for years, Fed has made adjustments and at 37 doing better, took him years. Novak made adjustments against Federer, now Federer is looking to adjust. These guys all are good enough to make adjustments but it takes time. So, it is possible that 04-07 Federer, whilst younger, may have had big problems with today's Djokovic and Nadal, it's possible. My argument is strong and valid, there is contradictory evidence to support what Darth believes - that 04-07 Federer would fare better vs today's Novak/Nadal. One one hand, he was younger but he played a different style. On the other hand, baby Nadal and Novak were already giving him problems so it is logical to assume, today's versions would be even more of a problem.
 

Nadalfan2013

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After analyzing the comments in this thread, I think it's safe to conclude that we all agree that Nadal is the Goat but that we just choose different words to express it.
 

DarthFed

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Yes, but Djoker tied Roger a couple of times without passing him, but never Nadal until after Roger, IIRC. It's not at all rich for me to imply what you think I am. It's rich that it offends you, given as often as you do it to Nadal. If you didn't have such a one-track mind, you'd see the irony.

Djoker first tied him at USO 2015 and first tied Rafa at 2015 YEC if memory serves me right. Not exactly an enormous difference.
 

Moxie

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Djoker first tied him at USO 2015 and first tied Rafa at 2015 YEC if memory serves me right. Not exactly an enormous difference.
I think that's wrong...I'll look it up. Tomorrow.
 

DarthFed

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I think that's wrong...I'll look it up. Tomorrow.

Heh good luck with that.

Edit: I looked it up, was right about Rafa but Novak tied Roger up at Wimbledon 15. I'm getting old myself
 

Moxie

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stop trying to be voice of reason sometimes, i have seen you do this... you get into arguments with Darth and then counter someone like me as 'hey, wait, i'm reasonable'

My point is VALID. When Darth mentions that Roger is OLD and that he is beating Nadal and Djokovic when he should be retired, what do you think he means? He means, very obvious, that 04-07 Fed would DOMINATE today's Novak and Nadal. What i argue and you should be smart enough to recognize this, is that it's not that simple. I never said Nadal and Djokovic, in their teen years, were dominating Federer, what i said is that they were giving him problems and they were. Nadal, at 18, straight stetted Federer on hard courts in 05 and Djokovic, at 19, beat Federer in a masters final, in 07. Djokovic then straight setted Fed in 08 AO, all this WAY before his prime. So what does this mean? If pre prime Novak and Nadal were already starting to give Fed hell... is Darth right that 04-07 Fed would dominate today's versions of them? NOT THAT SIMPLE. There are complicated dynamics at play here. Maybe Fed's 04-07 game wasn't better suited to handle today's Nadal and Novak, even if he was younger. Maybe today's 'OLD' Fed is older but has adjusted his game over many years to better handle Nadal, clearly he's had success. These guys make adjustments, Nadal was thoroughly OWNED by Novak in 11-12, he then made adjustments, over years. Similarly, Nadal owned Federer for years, Fed has made adjustments and at 37 doing better, took him years. Novak made adjustments against Federer, now Federer is looking to adjust. These guys all are good enough to make adjustments but it takes time. So, it is possible that 04-07 Federer, whilst younger, may have had big problems with today's Djokovic and Nadal, it's possible. My argument is strong and valid, there is contradictory evidence to support what Darth believes - that 04-07 Federer would fare better vs today's Novak/Nadal. One one hand, he was younger but he played a different style. On the other hand, baby Nadal and Novak were already giving him problems so it is logical to assume, today's versions would be even more of a problem.
You and Cali whine about the same thing...that some of us posters are too "reasonable." Well, cry me a river, and forgive the fuck out of me for being reasonable. If the two of you showed up more often, you'd know it was par for the course, with the likes of me and Broken and even us with Darth, who can also be reasonable. As to the rest, it was a bit eye-glazing, given how hard you keep trying to make the same points. I'm off to watch my movie. Bore someone else for the rest of the evening.
 

DarthFed

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You and Cali whine about the same thing...that some of us posters are too "reasonable." Well, cry me a river, and forgive the fuck out of me for being reasonable. If the two of you showed up more often, you'd know it was par for the course, with the likes of me and Broken and even us with Darth, who can also be reasonable. As to the rest, it was a bit eye-glazing, given how hard you keep trying to make the same points. I'm off to watch my movie. Bore someone else for the rest of the evening.

That movie will do a good job of boring you for the rest of the evening. I was forced to watch that crap
 

Moxie

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That movie will do a good job of boring you for the rest of the evening. I was forced to watch that crap
Chick-flick? Rom-com? I'm already more enthralled than this conversation. Now stop making me pause it.
 
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The_Grand_Slam

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he's always the better player according to you....the problem is that the better player usually wins....so Nole was the better player

You're the worst poster on this site.

Stop polluting this thread and buzz off moron.
 
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don_fabio

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Lost matches after not converting match points:

Federer 22/1487 (1,48 %)
Nadal 5/1152 (0,43 %)
Djokovic 3/1053 (0,28 %)

Fed leads by far, but he has plenty more matches than the other 2. It's obvious Fed gets tight in those situations, but it does not diminish any of his achievements. It's just missed opportunities for a guy who plays the most beautiful tennis ever.
 

MikeOne

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You and Cali whine about the same thing...that some of us posters are too "reasonable." Well, cry me a river, and forgive the fuck out of me for being reasonable. If the two of you showed up more often, you'd know it was par for the course, with the likes of me and Broken and even us with Darth, who can also be reasonable. As to the rest, it was a bit eye-glazing, given how hard you keep trying to make the same points. I'm off to watch my movie. Bore someone else for the rest of the evening.

HAHAHAHA... You all are reasonable? BUAHAHAHAHA good one Moxie! nice joke.

as if you don't bore with the same points you make over and over again... as if Darth doesn't regurgitate the same crap 1,000 times over, every time, every single time. Every time i read his posts, it's as if he's posting the same thing, for years - Federer old, Federer chokes, crap match etc... then you all start talking about Sampras... 'Sampras this, Sampras that, you just hate Federer' talk about eye-glazing...

what you all have which i don't envy is how all of you personally insult posters, i never do that. Read around... You and darth get personal, Broken writes pages viciously attacking posters, 'moron, idiot'.. not to mention others like ricardo, monfed, you all start to personally insult posters, but you are 'reasonable'. Yes Moxie, you all are not boring nor repetitive and you all are 'reasonable'.
 

MikeOne

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Lost matches after not converting match points:

Federer 22/1487 (1,48 %)
Nadal 5/1152 (0,43 %)
Djokovic 3/1053 (0,28 %)

Fed leads by far, but he has plenty more matches than the other 2. It's obvious Fed gets tight in those situations, but it does not diminish any of his achievements. It's just missed opportunities for a guy who plays the most beautiful tennis ever.

interesting stats... How many of those were against Nadal and Djokovic?
 

brokenshoelace

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interesting stats... How many of those were against Nadal and Djokovic?

Federer held match points vs. Nadal in Rome 2006 and lost. That's the only Nadal match. He lost 3 GS matches vs. Djokovic after holding match points. Not sure if there were other matches vs Novak in non majors.
 

monfed

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Fed fans can't catch a break man. After doing all the hardwork of overcoming the raging bull , he does this to a guy he fucking bitchslapped and owned. Remember Fed was 16-9 against this pushbot once upon a time. He even kept it close after that till about 2014. Went down the gutter since 2014. Choke after choke after choke.

Couldn't he muster some mental strength even once? Fuck he's a loser man. A real loser. I don't feel sad for Federer or his family. I feel sad and gutted for his fans who believed in him all these years.

I bet he rolls joints with his francs while we're wiping our tears.
 
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DarthFed

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Lost matches after not converting match points:

Federer 22/1487 (1,48 %)
Nadal 5/1152 (0,43 %)
Djokovic 3/1053 (0,28 %)

Fed leads by far, but he has plenty more matches than the other 2. It's obvious Fed gets tight in those situations, but it does not diminish any of his achievements. It's just missed opportunities for a guy who plays the most beautiful tennis ever.

It's fucking pathetic is what it is. There is no sugar coating it. 5 of those in majors QF, SF, and Finals. The problem for Roger is if you save MP against him the match is over.
 

DarthFed

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HAHAHAHA... You all are reasonable? BUAHAHAHAHA good one Moxie! nice joke.

as if you don't bore with the same points you make over and over again... as if Darth doesn't regurgitate the same crap 1,000 times over, every time, every single time. Every time i read his posts, it's as if he's posting the same thing, for years - Federer old, Federer chokes, crap match etc... then you all start talking about Sampras... 'Sampras this, Sampras that, you just hate Federer' talk about eye-glazing...

what you all have which i don't envy is how all of you personally insult posters, i never do that. Read around... You and darth get personal, Broken writes pages viciously attacking posters, 'moron, idiot'.. not to mention others like ricardo, monfed, you all start to personally insult posters, but you are 'reasonable'. Yes Moxie, you all are not boring nor repetitive and you all are 'reasonable'.

lol and you aren't repetitive at all. Hell the worst part of the Roger choke is that you are around here all week.