Gerry Weber Open (Halle) 9-15 June 2014

[Front242]

If it's any consolation, Federer's ROS on grass is complete garbage the last few years, and certainly in Halle at least, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Brown beat him too. The chipped return if he managed to get a racquet on a few of those bombs might frustrate Brown over 5 sets in Wimbledon but I'm not optimistic about Fed against big servers on grass these days either.

 

[Kieran]

Main difference between Murray and Nadal on grass is that Andy has two main weapons that can get him out of trouble when he's not playing well: the serve and his return. Whereas, Nadal needs his ground game to work but against these players that give him no rhythm, it's all about how well he serves and returns (two things he's not doing well at the moment).

He's only played one match. It's early to get down about it. Now, he has no more matches before Wimbledon. He knows what he has to do. Let's wait and see when he's there. One thing I agree with you on, I think it was you, is that if he gets through the first week, he'll be fairly strong for the second week, but at the moment, I'm not overly concerned, mainly because I think the fact that he even showed up in halle is a good sign.

Last year, he wasn't able.

We'll see...

 

[Fiero425]

Interesting stat: Nadal has lost his last 3 matches on grass. To #85 Brown, #135 Darcis and #100 Rosol. Not exactly a confidence booster.

Thank you! Finally sanity and reality prevail! :clap :angel:

 

[tented]

Interesting stat: Nadal has lost his last 3 matches on grass. To #85 Brown, #135 Darcis and #100 Rosol. Not exactly a confidence booster.

Thank you! Finally sanity and reality prevails! :clap :angel:

Listing stats has nothing to do with sanity prevailing.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Main difference between Murray and Nadal on grass is that Andy has two main weapons that can get him out of trouble when he's not playing well: the serve and his return. Whereas, Nadal needs his ground game to work but against these players that give him no rhythm, it's all about how well he serves and returns (two things he's not doing well at the moment).

He's only played one match. It's early to get down about it. Now, he has no more matches before Wimbledon. He knows what he has to do. Let's wait and see when he's there. One thing I agree with you on, I think it was you, is that if he gets through the first week, he'll be fairly strong for the second week, but at the moment, I'm not overly concerned, mainly because I think the fact that he even showed up in halle is a good sign.

Last year, he wasn't able.

We'll see...

Showing up and losing your first match isn't a marked improvement over not showing up at all. I know he knows what he needs to do, but some of the things he needs to do on grass haven't been working well for him in a while, which makes these matches a struggle. It's not just this match, but literally every single match he's played on grass since 2011. I'm never one to overreact to ONE loss, especially after he just won a major, but there is a trend here, and grass is not clay (despite what some will tell you about surfaces playing the same).

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

 

[DarthFed]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Interesting stat: Nadal has lost his last 3 matches on grass. To #85 Brown, #135 Darcis and #100 Rosol. Not exactly a confidence booster.

Thank you! Finally sanity and reality prevail! :clap :angel:

Nothing sane or insane about this. It's just a fact.

Borg being greater than Nadal on the other hand, isn't, and falls more in the "insanity" category, since it ignores the "reality" you speak of.

Let me give you a reality: 14 majors > 12. Majors on all surfaces > Majors on two surfaces. Career slam > no career slam.

 

[Fiero425]

Interesting stat: Nadal has lost his last 3 matches on grass. To #85 Brown, #135 Darcis and #100 Rosol. Not exactly a confidence booster.

Thank you! Finally sanity and reality prevails! :clap :angel:

Listing stats has nothing to do with sanity prevailing.

:spacecadet: :violins: :chillout:

 

[brokenshoelace]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

It's not so much top spin and defense. We know this won't work. But that's not how Nadal plays on grass. What's always been impressive about him is the way he made the adjustment, hit the ball with less spin, served well, returned further up the court, etc once he transitions to grass. This hasn't happened in a couple of years now.

 

[tented]

Interesting stat: Nadal has lost his last 3 matches on grass. To #85 Brown, #135 Darcis and #100 Rosol. Not exactly a confidence booster.

Thank you! Finally sanity and reality prevails! :clap :angel:

Listing stats has nothing to do with sanity prevailing.

:spacecadet: :violins: :chillout:

Now you're just being stubborn and ridiculous. There's no way you can justify equating sanity prevailing with the listing of numbers.

But who am I kidding. You've never admitted you're wrong, despite being proven so many times.

 

[Kieran]

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

Showing up and losing is much better than not having the energy to show up at all. Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface. In the first set today, Rafa was holding easier than Brown until Brown hit a few inspired shots to break. That's how it goes. The thing about the grass now is, we don't get the chance to see any patterns emerge, so we basically go from this match - to the first round at Wimbo. We don't get to see how he develops.

But still, this match isn't an indicator of anything other than the fact that it's Rafa first match on the surface in a year and he got caught cold. It doesn't tell us how he'll do at Wimbledon...

 

[brokenshoelace]

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

Showing up and losing is much better than not having the energy to show up at all. Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface. In the first set today, Rafa was holding easier than Brown until Brown hit a few inspired shots to break. That's how it goes. The thing about the grass now is, we don't get the chance to see any patterns emerge, so we basically go from this match - to the first round at Wimbo. We don't get to see how he develops.

But still, this match isn't an indicator of anything other than the fact that it's Rafa first match on the surface in a year and he got caught cold. It doesn't tell us how he'll do at Wimbledon...

If the problem last year was energy, then he wouldn't have lost to Darcis, since skipping Halle gave him that energy...and he still showed up and lost his first match.

You're still focusing on what this match indicates. Alone, it doesn't indicate much. The fact that Nadal has won a combined two matches on grass in 2012, 2013 and 2014, indicates far more.

 

[Fiero425]

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

Showing up and losing is much better than not having the energy to show up at all. Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface. In the first set today, Rafa was holding easier than Brown until Brown hit a few inspired shots to break. That's how it goes. The thing about the grass now is, we don't get the chance to see any patterns emerge, so we basically go from this match - to the first round at Wimbo. We don't get to see how he develops.

But still, this match isn't an indicator of anything other than the fact that it's Rafa first match on the surface in a year and he got caught cold. It doesn't tell us how he'll do at Wimbledon...

Well we'll see in a couple weeks won't we? :angel:

 

[tented]

Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface.

This is the most important aspect, considering he skipped Halle last year. I don't know if he practiced on grass elsewhere (in Mallorca? I heard something about grass courts being put in there, but can't remember the specifics), but we know he didn't practice in Halle or Queen's Club.

 

[DarthFed]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

It's not so much top spin and defense. We know this won't work. But that's not how Nadal plays on grass. What's always been impressive about him is the way he made the adjustment, hit the ball with less spin, served well, returned further up the court, etc once he transitions to grass. This hasn't happened in a couple of years now.

And still, all much more effective in the 2nd week of Wimbledon when the ball is kicking up higher and playing quite a bit slower.

 

[Fiero425]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

It's not so much top spin and defense. We know this won't work. But that's not how Nadal plays on grass. What's always been impressive about him is the way he made the adjustment, hit the ball with less spin, served well, returned further up the court, etc once he transitions to grass. This hasn't happened in a couple of years now.

And still, all much more effective in the 2nd week of Wimbledon when the ball is kicking up higher and playing quite a bit slower.

You're assuming Rafa will make the 2nd week; I don't! :nono :angel:

 

[Kieran]

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

Showing up and losing is much better than not having the energy to show up at all. Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface. In the first set today, Rafa was holding easier than Brown until Brown hit a few inspired shots to break. That's how it goes. The thing about the grass now is, we don't get the chance to see any patterns emerge, so we basically go from this match - to the first round at Wimbo. We don't get to see how he develops.

But still, this match isn't an indicator of anything other than the fact that it's Rafa first match on the surface in a year and he got caught cold. It doesn't tell us how he'll do at Wimbledon...

If the problem last year was energy, then he wouldn't have lost to Darcis, since skipping Halle gave him that energy...and he still showed up and lost his first match.

You're still focusing on what this match indicates. Alone, it doesn't indicate much. The fact that Nadal has won a combined two matches on grass in 2012, 2013 and 2014, indicates far more.

I'm not focusing on this match indicating anything, since I just said that in the post you replied to.

I wouldn't write Rafa off or get anxious based upon last year's Wimbledon, or the year before. Nor would I say that these are indicators that he can only do better, therefore he'll do better this year. I'm saying that it's too soon to call him on anything yet, especially just a couple of days after winning a match that was emotionally and physically draining.

I expect him to do a lot better this year at Wimbledon, however...

 

[DarthFed]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

It's not so much top spin and defense. We know this won't work. But that's not how Nadal plays on grass. What's always been impressive about him is the way he made the adjustment, hit the ball with less spin, served well, returned further up the court, etc once he transitions to grass. This hasn't happened in a couple of years now.

And still, all much more effective in the 2nd week of Wimbledon when the ball is kicking up higher and playing quite a bit slower.

You're assuming Rafa will make the 2nd week; I don't! :nono :angel:

I'm definitely not assuming it, and definitely not hoping for it

 

[Front242]

What concerns me more than the defeat itself is Nadal's game to be honest. It's easy to lose a match on grass since a lot hinges a couple of points, but that wasn't one of those defeats.

Showing up and losing is much better than not having the energy to show up at all. Plus, he got a few days hitting on the surface. In the first set today, Rafa was holding easier than Brown until Brown hit a few inspired shots to break. That's how it goes. The thing about the grass now is, we don't get the chance to see any patterns emerge, so we basically go from this match - to the first round at Wimbo. We don't get to see how he develops.

But still, this match isn't an indicator of anything other than the fact that it's Rafa first match on the surface in a year and he got caught cold. It doesn't tell us how he'll do at Wimbledon...

If the problem last year was energy, then he wouldn't have lost to Darcis, since skipping Halle gave him that energy...and he still showed up and lost his first match.

You're still focusing on what this match indicates. Alone, it doesn't indicate much. The fact that Nadal has won a combined two matches on grass in 2012, 2013 and 2014, indicates far more.

I'm not focusing on this match indicating anything, since I just said that in the post you replied to.

I wouldn't write Rafa off or get anxious based upon last year's Wimbledon, or the year before. Nor would I say that these are indicators that he can only do better, therefore he'll do better this year. I'm saying that it's too soon to call him on anything yet, especially just a couple of days after winning a match that was emotionally and physically draining.

I expect him to do a lot better this year at Wimbledon, however...

Me too. Third round is a lot better than the first Hopefully same for old Wodge

 

[Fiero425]

Well it's clear Rafa was lucky not to face mighty Dustin Brown at RG!

All joking aside it's not too surprising. Topspin doesn't kick up here and defense is a lot less effective. There is a reason or 2 he has hardly ever looked decent on grass aside from 2nd week Wimbledon.

It's not so much top spin and defense. We know this won't work. But that's not how Nadal plays on grass. What's always been impressive about him is the way he made the adjustment, hit the ball with less spin, served well, returned further up the court, etc once he transitions to grass. This hasn't happened in a couple of years now.

And still, all much more effective in the 2nd week of Wimbledon when the ball is kicking up higher and playing quite a bit slower.

You're assuming Rafa will make the 2nd week; I don't! :nono :angel:

I'm definitely not assuming it, and definitely not hoping for it

You and me both! I've never cared for his game; the epitome of ugly tennis! Normally you root for the underdog, but from day one I had a problem with that kid! Agassi and Connors were right up there with him in my lack of esteem!