General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Kieran]

You're telling me to be objective, yet here you're saying the BBC guy is right and so are you. I've had enough for one night and off to bed early

Peas.

https://www.tennisfrontier.com/thre...ercy-france-atp-masters-1000.7554/post-490102

No, I’m not saying the BBC guy is right, or if he’s right that this is proof of doping. I’m saying that we should all apply the same standards even to our own favourite players. You look at every other great player and say they’re doping, but when Federer is doing something unusual - and 2017 was very unusual - you say, um he’s different cos, eh, he tanked sets, and uh…

If a BBC man said anything similar about Novak or Rafa, you’d bookmark it and haul its skinny threadbare arse out every single time you wanted to attack those players. Be consistent! Even now you’re attacking young bucks for having lots of energy? Well, of course they do, they’re young…

 

[Moxie]

Calling someone out for having a fanboyish double standard is one thing, but do you really need to imply that Roger was doping in 2017? And what about your boy, who was swirling the drain for two (mostly healthy) years before surging again? Meaning, you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing Front of: turning a blind eye on questionable performance.

I'm not saying that Rafa was doping. I simply don't know, and don't think it is worth talking about without actual proof. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. But glass houses and all...

Sorry if my post was too subtle on the point, but I would have thought you've been around here long enough to know that I've always said that I'm not accusing Roger of doping, and I never have. I'm accusing Front (and likewise Darth, back when he was around,) of holding a double-standard on the point. I have had this conversation with Front a million times, and I always say I'm not accusing Roger. I would have thought you'd have seen at least a few of those. My problem is that, for all the suspicions Front lays out there on other players, he never once even acknowledged that Roger's resurgence might look bad, given how much it lined up with the criteria he and Darth had set-up up over the years for their case against, particularly, Nadal.

For the record, I am NOT in the camp that believes they all dope. I believe in exceptional athletic ability. And I think there's a lot that goes on in tennis that you can't get by doping. To me, the benefit that top players have beyond their natural talents, tennis IQs, will to win and ruthlessness on court, is that they can afford the best physios, doctors and treatments available to an athlete. Their support systems are huge. This is an advantage, no doubt.

 

[Jelenafan]

All i know is that little Holger Rune was “clean” in his titanic win over Novak. His only “drug” was 19 year old legs.

 

[Moxie]

I’m a very private person so I understand why they don’t want prying eyes watching them - I’d be even more so if I was famous. Remember, it’s not their bottle, it’s somebody else’s bottle, so then the need for privacy is even greater.

Bear this in mind, that drug officials also see these videos, so the thought that they’d be trying to get away with something terrible in full view of the public becomes even less likely.

And also, we’re Rafa fans, we’ve heard enough of this nonsense from Federer fans who couldn’t handle Rafa’s owning him naturally.

I’m not saying that the big 3 aren’t doping, by the way, I’m just saying that this video didn’t tell me that anything unusual is going on…

I finally got around to watching that video. I saw this on the threads, but was too busy watching the match.

What I saw was that what the physio was doing was completely out in the open until Goran spotted someone filming, so they blocked it. I've seen a few creditable journalists saying that the optics were "strange." But I agree with you: if my boss was a famous person, I'd make the effort to protect privacy. They didn't know they'd make it look worse. Larger point is: Players have recovery drinks sent to them all the time. This is not unusual. No one can detect what is being put in it with an iPhone. Also, Novak is the guy who won't get vaccinated. He's very careful about what he puts into his body. I find him an unlikely candidate for medications to enhance performance.

 

[TheSicilian]

"Novak, do you care to explain this?" - Journalist asks Novak Djokovic for clarification after seeing vide of Serb being handed secret drink during Paris Masters SF

Speculation has arisen over a mystery drink given to Novak Djokovic by his trainer during the Serb's Paris Masters semifinal against Stefanos Tsitsipas.

www.sportskeeda.com

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

"Novak, do you care to explain this?" - Journalist asks Novak Djokovic for clarification after seeing vide of Serb being handed secret drink during Paris Masters SF

Speculation has arisen over a mystery drink given to Novak Djokovic by his trainer during the Serb's Paris Masters semifinal against Stefanos Tsitsipas.

www.sportskeeda.com

I know Novak wasnt asked about the drink he was given in his press conference after the Paris Masters. I have to agree with Jon Wertheim seeking an explanation regarding this incident, as it is not the first time it has happened, I understand athletes have privacy issues.The tennis world is still waiting for this documentary on these so called 'magic potions; from Djokovic.

 

[Moxie]

"Novak, do you care to explain this?" - Journalist asks Novak Djokovic for clarification after seeing vide of Serb being handed secret drink during Paris Masters SF

Speculation has arisen over a mystery drink given to Novak Djokovic by his trainer during the Serb's Paris Masters semifinal against Stefanos Tsitsipas.

www.sportskeeda.com

I think I addressed a lot of the concerns in your article. And Jon Wertheim was the main journalist of note I was thinking of, though Ben Rothensberg, who tends to be more sensationalistic, also weighed in. It seems that answer should be simple, and Novak should address it right away. The huffing in the bottle is weirder, and he should explain that, as well. If it's nothing of consequence, then he shouldn't take months to figure out how to explain it. He's doing it in public. He clearly thinks he has nothing to hide. It's sports...he has to tell people what it is.

Following on to @Ricardo: If you continue reading down from the above, Novak says: "Every tournament is important at this stage of my career." Thus, the pressure I was talking about.

​

 

[Kieran]

I finally got around to watching that video. I saw this on the threads, but was too busy watching the match.

What I saw was that what the physio was doing was completely out in the open until Goran spotted someone filming, so they blocked it. I've seen a few creditable journalists saying that the optics were "strange." But I agree with you: if my boss was a famous person, I'd make the effort to protect privacy. They didn't know they'd make it look worse. Larger point is: Players have recovery drinks sent to them all the time. This is not unusual. No one can detect what is being put in it with an iPhone. Also, Novak is the guy who won't get vaccinated. He's very careful about what he puts into his body. I find him an unlikely candidate for medications to enhance performance.

Exactly. And I think fans shouldn’t accuse players of taking drugs - just because they don’t like that players success. If a player fails a dope test, then it’s fair game to wallop that player and their career and reputation and ascribe the worst motives and actions to them, where it comes to drugs.

But they’re innocent until proven guilty, and as you know, it just sounds like sour grapes on behalf of fans. And it’s a good point you make about how careful Novak is with regards to what he puts in his body. I just don’t see these boys passing drugs around in the stadium during the match. It seems like a ridiculous notion…

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I think I addressed a lot of the concerns in your article. And Jon Wertheim was the main journalist of note I was thinking of, though Ben Rothensberg, who tends to be more sensationalistic, also weighed in. It seems that answer should be simple, and Novak should address it right away. The huffing in the bottle is weirder, and he should explain that, as well. If it's nothing of consequence, then he shouldn't take months to figure out how to explain it. He's doing it in public. He clearly thinks he has nothing to hide. It's sports...he has to tell people what it is.

Following on to @Ricardo: If you continue reading down from the above, Novak says: "Every tournament is important at this stage of my career." Thus, the pressure I was talking about.

​

I agree with your comment...if he clearly think he has nothing to hide, its sport he has to tell people what it is? as this isnt the first time it has happened, of course people are going to question it, it is a natural reaction isnt it?
BTW I have not accused Novak of taking drugs, or doping.,if he hasnt anything to hide then I dont know why all the secrecy with these potions' he gets his team to mix up for him, not to mention sniffing from a bottle?

 

[Kieran]

An article about Djokers bottle controversy on tennis.com:

Novak Djokovic’s mid-match drink stirs internet speculation​

 

[TheSicilian]

Exactly. And I think fans shouldn’t accuse players of taking drugs - just because they don’t like that players success. If a player fails a dope test, then it’s fair game to wallop that player and their career and reputation and ascribe the worst motives and actions to them, where it comes to drugs.

But they’re innocent until proven guilty, and as you know, it just sounds like sour grapes on behalf of fans. And it’s a good point you make about how careful Novak is with regards to what he puts in his body. I just don’t see these boys passing drugs around in the stadium during the match. It seems like a ridiculous notion…

That's fair enough, but when an athlete not just tennis improves from good to potential goat seemingly overnight people are going to ask questions. Especially when multiple videos surface of strange behaviour.

 

[TheSicilian]

An article about Djokers bottle controversy on tennis.com:

Novak Djokovic’s mid-match drink stirs internet speculation​

Why not just have the drink ready in his bag pre match? His team looking suspicious is the problem if they made the drink without looking suspect nobody would even question it

 

[Front242]

No, I’m not saying the BBC guy is right, or if he’s right that this is proof of doping. I’m saying that we should all apply the same standards even to our own favourite players. You look at every other great player and say they’re doping, but when Federer is doing something unusual - and 2017 was very unusual - you say, um he’s different cos, eh, he tanked sets, and uh…

If a BBC man said anything similar about Novak or Rafa, you’d bookmark it and haul its skinny threadbare arse out every single time you wanted to attack those players. Be consistent! Even now you’re attacking young bucks for having lots of energy? Well, of course they do, they’re young…

4 straight weeks of tennis and 3 straight finals is suss at any age. Imagine how bashed up and sore the average person would be after going to the gym for 4 straight weeks. Given the physicality of tennis, this is a good analogy. I said multiple times already it's quite likely all the top players dope but, equally so, 2017 from Federer doesn't stand out as anything resembling doping at all. Not allowing himself to be pinned in the backhand corner and hitting thru his backhand was something he should have done years ago. If you want to use the word dope then he was a complete dope with his strategy till 2017. And yes, he tanked sets while trailing badly as far back as 2010 and 2011 (USO against Djokovic) cos he doesn't have unlimited stamina. Never did.

 

[El Dude]

That's fair enough, but when an athlete not just tennis improves from good to potential goat seemingly overnight people are going to ask questions. Especially when multiple videos surface of strange behaviour.

Who are you talking about? Novak? When did he go from "good to potential goat seemingly overnight?" Are you talking about 2011?

Not only is such a performance jump not unheard of and actually just part of many developmental paths (see, "Roger Federer, 2003-04"), but there are other, better explanations for his improved performance.

 

[TheSicilian]

Who are you talking about? Novak? When did he go from "good to potential goat seemingly overnight?" Are you talking about 2011?

Not only is such a performance jump not unheard of and actually just part of many developmental paths (see, "Roger Federer, 2003-04"), but there are other, better explanations for his improved performance.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular here. I'm just saying any time an athlete improves in a short time some people will ask questions. Go on any tennis doping site and you will find tons of players accused of doping.

 

[don_fabio]

An article about Djokers bottle controversy on tennis.com:

Novak Djokovic’s mid-match drink stirs internet speculation​

I think they are just trying to make a story where there isn't one.

 

[El Dude]

I'm not talking about anyone in particular here. I'm just saying any time an athlete improves in a short time some people will ask questions. Go on any tennis doping site and you will find tons of players accused of doping.

OK, fair enough.

I'm just pointing out development usually doesn't happen linearly: meaning, getting a bit better in a consistent fashion over time. The norm is that players have breakthroughs - things click, and they take a big leap forward, and we shouldn't assume this is because of steroids, when in fact it is just how most players develop.

This is actually synonymous with a concept from evolutionary biology: punctuated equilibrium, in which evolution involves long periods of stability punctuated by evolutionary jumps.

When players develop, it is sort of like climbing a multi-story building, but hanging out at least level for awhile (consolidation). Eventually all players plateau at a "peak," beyond which they won't improve further. This usually occurs somewhere in the age 22-25 range (give or take). In rare cases, it happens later, and a player finds another gear in their later 20s, perhaps through getting more serious or fixing an ongoing problem (e.g. Stan Wawrinka).

IMO, the best candidate for Stan-esque late 20s jump is Nick Kyrgios. The talent is there, but whether or not he'll take things seriously enough to maximize his talent remains to be seen.

 

[TheSicilian]

OK, fair enough.

I'm just pointing out development usually doesn't happen linearly: meaning, getting a bit better in a consistent fashion over time. The norm is that players have breakthroughs - things click, and they take a big leap forward, and we shouldn't assume this is because of steroids, when in fact it is just how most players develop.

This is actually synonymous with a concept from evolutionary biology: punctuated equilibrium, in which evolution involves long periods of stability punctuated by evolutionary jumps.

When players develop, it is sort of like climbing a multi-story building, but hanging out at least level for awhile (consolidation). Eventually all players plateau at a "peak," beyond which they won't improve further. This usually occurs somewhere in the age 22-25 range (give or take). In rare cases, it happens later, and a player finds another gear in their later 20s, perhaps through getting more serious or fixing an ongoing problem (e.g. Stan Wawrinka).

IMO, the best candidate for Stan-esque late 20s jump is Nick Kyrgios. The talent is there, but whether or not he'll take things seriously enough to maximize his talent remains to be seen.

Good post makes sense. But there will always be athletes who improve a ridiculous amount in a short time people will question it.

 

[Kieran]

4 straight weeks of tennis and 3 straight finals is suss at any age. Imagine how bashed up and sore the average person would be after going to the gym for 4 straight weeks. Given the physicality of tennis, this is a good analogy.

Who did 4 weeks in a row? Rune had a week off after Sofia. And he’s 19 years old! He could have gone clubbing virtually every night and still played.

Federer has had similar runs when he was even older.

I said multiple times already it's quite likely all the top players dope but, equally so, 2017 from Federer doesn't stand out as anything resembling doping at all. Not allowing himself to be pinned in the backhand corner and hitting thru his backhand was something he should have done years ago. If you want to use the word dope then he was a complete dope with his strategy till 2017. And yes, he tanked sets while trailing badly as far back as 2010 and 2011 (USO against Djokovic) cos he doesn't have unlimited stamina. Never did.

Federer spiked in 2017. He hadn’t won a slam in five years and then he won 3 in 13 months. He hadn’t beaten Nadal in a slam since 2007, and he’d been beaten progressively easier by Rafa in 3 previous Australian Open matches.

He rose back to number one in the world and began to win back to back long matches for the first time in his career.

Now, I’m not saying Roger was doping - you are! After all, I’m only applying your methods here…

 

[Front242]

I think I addressed a lot of the concerns in your article. And Jon Wertheim was the main journalist of note I was thinking of, though Ben Rothensberg, who tends to be more sensationalistic, also weighed in. It seems that answer should be simple, and Novak should address it right away. The huffing in the bottle is weirder, and he should explain that, as well. If it's nothing of consequence, then he shouldn't take months to figure out how to explain it. He's doing it in public. He clearly thinks he has nothing to hide. It's sports...he has to tell people what it is.

Following on to @Ricardo: If you continue reading down from the above, Novak says: "Every tournament is important at this stage of my career." Thus, the pressure I was talking about.

​

Translation: Every tournament is important at this point so expect more of my dodgy bottles from now on.

At least he's honest there.