Covid vaccine - opinions?

[Moxie]

No, though I listened to a couple of interviews with him about it.

It is interesting how the book is a huge bestseller, but receiving absolutely no coverage from any mainstream sources.

Well, it's made the Boston Globe, and lots of right-wing media in the general mainstream. What's your takeaway?

 

[Kieran]

I hope you don't think that anything I have said is designed to make you or Front "hesitant to speak." Though, knowing you both, and you being Oirish and all, I suppose that would be a fool's errand, anyway.

Wow! Lucky we’re not trans, that could have been an incident.

Generally though, this can be strategy of people in modern political debate to silence others. Don’t say anything, you’re killing people you, transphobe, racist etc. This strategy is used by people who have no real argument to defend their position and so call people names instead.

I’m not saying you have no real argument but what I am saying is that deciphering a persons comments in that way, to repeatedly accuse them of being judgmental rather than accepting that they’re only going by the science, sounds like you’re trying to marginalise opinions you don’t like.

Obviously, we see this issue very differently, but I don't think either of you is heartless or judgmental. I'm just saying that these particular opinions sound judgmental, to me. No matter what I say, you keep coming back with "aged" and "immune-compromised," as if nothing else is a factor. So, you weren't so interested in my opinion, after all. But if we are to "cocoon" the people that you agree should be and need to be, then a vaccine is a way of doing it. That's the point of vaccines.

Yes, the statistics show that the virus kills and puts most in danger the immune compromised and the aged. For us to pretend that this is an equal opportunity’s killer is a mistake. The older we get, the higher the death rates. The countries with the highest obesity rates are most affected. If you have your full health and youth, you have better chance than a person who’s aged, and smokes like a fish. It’s not judgmental to say this, unless we can all agree that the statistics need to be judged so that the more vulnerable can be pinpointed and protected.

I have listened to your opinion and I agree with large swathes of it, and I’m not hostile to any of it, but I sense that in some of the factors leading to a worse covid, you’re minimalising them, and don’t want us to mention them. The stats on this, however, are everywhere. You won’t find statistic in any country that show the young are dying at prohibitively higher rates than the very old.

As for cocooning versus the vaccine, I would agree with you about the vaccine if it was the magic bullet we hoped for, but it seems it’s not enough - certainly not over here - and we expect that even the vaccinated will be further restricted if the news on omicron becomes worse…

 

[Kieran]

If we're going to be really fair here, we do know that a lot of information and data is in flux.

Unfortunately, this is even true about The Science, and as I often complain here, it would be helpful if every government and health tsar admitted this, in order to get the population to assent to their new restrictions.

I can offer you a new study that says the unvaccinated are 11x more likely to die of Covid than the unvaccinated, here in the US.

This is probably similar to statistics in Ireland regarding who is ending up in the ICU, though I haven’t got numbers for it, but non-vaccinated account for 52% of the numbers, while only making up about 15-20% of the population. We don’t get stats on pre-covid health condition of patients, however, for obvious reasons.

I understand that mandates are a controversial topic, which I'd like to debate separately.

Very controversial, and most likely a legal issue too, until the full safety and durability of the vaccine is assured…

 

[Kieran]

Anyone read or going to read RJK Jr's new book?

I heard that he made waves but I didn’t know why. He’s obviously swimming against the prevailing culture, and so he’s being attacked. He must be saying something sensible…

 

[Front242]

Please read my above, which is also directed at you. You dismiss every other factor I have presented as making people susceptible to Covid, and just hammer on about elderly and immunocompromised. I resent that you can't read what I say and take in other factors. Your claim that natural immunity offers 13x more cover than vaccine is disputed, if you are fair. If we're going to be really fair here, we do know that a lot of information and data is in flux. I can offer you a new study that says the unvaccinated are 11x more likely to die of Covid than the unvaccinated, here in the US. I disagree with you that it's "all" about money, corruption, control and power. That position is way too paranoid for me, as I have said. I'm entitled to my opinion, so please stop telling me that I am "completely wrong again" and all the time.

As to the bolded above, you do want to protect the vulnerable. Which I admire and agree with. I just say that all of us being vaccinated would be the way. You don't agree.

I understand that mandates are a controversial topic, which I'd like to debate separately.

Firstly it was pretty obvious why I said you were completely wrong as I was alluding to your complete misinterpretation that I supposedly don't care about elderly and immunocompromised dying which is rubbish. Yet again I was merely backing up that as they are the ones the vaccines were made for and who they are supposed to protect they are pretty much pointless for the majority besides them.

Sorry but this is all about money cos kids should never be vaccinated against this unless they are very sick kids with underlying conditions and the corrupt pharmaceutical companies are milking this as money trumps health and they'd rather have tons of kids suffer bad effects or worse just to get rich which is completely unethical and this goes down to government level too seeing as they're being paid off by Big Pharma.

If you seriously think unvaccinated are 11x times more likely to die of covid then I feel bad for you and your completely blind belief of mainstream media lies. My answer to 11x more likely is this. For the overwhelming majority, they won't go to hospital or die and the stats don't lie with 99.6% in mild condition globally at almost any time on the official stats. 0 x 11 is still zero. Take a bow.

You need a lot more than a silly baseless stat like that. 11x more likely if 300lbs and unvaccinated or smoke 60 a day and unvaccinated or drink a litre of vodka a day and unvaccinated. Then maybe yes. Healthy BMI and no health issues, exercise daily, eat well but unvaccinated does NOT = 11x more likely to die from covid and you damn well know it too so stop posting bs.

 

[Front242]

 

[Front242]

 

[Kieran]

That’s how it feels, except with a Pfizer loyalty card you won’t get one free when the card is full…

 

[tented]

Age, obesity, diabetes, cancer, HIV status, Hep C, asthma, etc. There are lots of co-concurring conditions besides age and obesity, which is why I object to you two for hitting age and obesity so hard. And I don't really understand the bolded above. Sure, this thread is "broad," but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't take poverty into account.

From the CDC: Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19

Here's a particularly relevant section:

"Obesity Worsens Outcomes from COVID-19

Adults with excess weight are at even greater risk during the COVID-19 pandemic:

- Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
- Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.
- Obesity is linked to impaired immune function.
- Obesity decreases lung capacity and reserve and can make ventilation more difficult.
- A study of COVID-19 cases suggests that risks of hospitalization, intensive care unit admission, invasive mechanical ventilation, and death are higher with increasing BMI.
- The increased risk for hospitalization or death was particularly pronounced in those under age 65.
- More than 900,000 adult COVID-19 hospitalizations occurred in the United States between the beginning of the pandemic and November 18, 2020. Models estimate that 271,800 (30.2%) of these hospitalizations were attributed to obesity.

Children diagnosed with obesity may suffer worse outcomes from COVID-19. In a study of COVID-19 cases in patients aged 18 years and younger, having obesity was associated with a 3.07 times higher risk of hospitalization and a 1.42 times higher risk of severe illness (intensive care unit admission, invasive mechanical ventilation, or death) when hospitalized."

 

[Moxie]

From the CDC: Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19

Here's a particularly relevant section:

"Obesity Worsens Outcomes from COVID-19

Adults with excess weight are at even greater risk during the COVID-19 pandemic:

- Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
- Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.
- Obesity is linked to impaired immune function.
- Obesity decreases lung capacity and reserve and can make ventilation more difficult.
- A study of COVID-19 cases suggests that risks of hospitalization, intensive care unit admission, invasive mechanical ventilation, and death are higher with increasing BMI.
- The increased risk for hospitalization or death was particularly pronounced in those under age 65.
- More than 900,000 adult COVID-19 hospitalizations occurred in the United States between the beginning of the pandemic and November 18, 2020. Models estimate that 271,800 (30.2%) of these hospitalizations were attributed to obesity.

Children diagnosed with obesity may suffer worse outcomes from COVID-19. In a study of COVID-19 cases in patients aged 18 years and younger, having obesity was associated with a 3.07 times higher risk of hospitalization and a 1.42 times higher risk of severe illness (intensive care unit admission, invasive mechanical ventilation, or death) when hospitalized."

In case others don't click on the link, it does go on to make the point that obesity is disproportionate in certain ethic minorities, in the US, that poverty is a factor, and, to address Kieran's complaint, not of Ireland or the EU, but at the US government follows it up with what can be done to prevent it, i.e., eat better, get more exercise, get enough sleep and eliminate stress.

 

[Moxie]

If you seriously think unvaccinated are 11x times more likely to die of covid then I feel bad for you and your completely blind belief of mainstream media lies. My answer to 11x more likely is this. For the overwhelming majority, they won't go to hospital or die and the stats don't lie with 99.6% in mild condition globally at almost any time on the official stats. 0 x 11 is still zero. Take a bow.

You need a lot more than a silly baseless stat like that. 11x more likely if 300lbs and unvaccinated or smoke 60 a day and unvaccinated or drink a litre of vodka a day and unvaccinated. Then maybe yes. Healthy BMI and no health issues, exercise daily, eat well but unvaccinated does NOT = 11x more likely to die from covid and you damn well know it too so stop posting bs.

I said "I can offer you a study," and, without asking to have a look, you completely dismiss it, and assume it's from "mainstream media," whatever that means to you. That's a fairly closed mind, I'd say.

 

[Front242]

I said "I can offer you a study," and, without asking to have a look, you completely dismiss it, and assume it's from "mainstream media," whatever that means to you. That's a fairly closed mind, I'd say.

Well frankly no study claiming unvaccinated people are 11 x more likely to die from covid is worth looking at 'cos it's 100% bs going by the official stats always hovering around 99.6% globally in mild condition. As I mentioned earlier, 11 x more likely plus very significant comorbidities (smoker/lung issues, big drinker, diabetes, heart disease etc) and fat asf and no doubt a greatly increased risk but if you genuinely think 100% healthy but unvaccinated people with a healthy BMI who eat well and exercise regularly are 11x more likely to die from covid you're being very naive. Not a closed mind, I just don't read rubbish stats to push any pro vaccine agenda. There are plenty of fake studies out there too or else they forget significant supplementary information like weight, age, underlying health issues etc, not to mention the Pfizer whistleblower's report with lamestream media conveniently brushed aside and ignored for obvious reasons since they're in Big Pharma's pockets.

 

[Horsa]

Anyone read or going to read RJK Jr's new book?

I wish I had time to. I wish I had time to read any book for that matter. I've been very busy with work & with a "working with under-12s" course work put me on & then I got staff roles on another forum I'm on. 1st I got put as a chat-room co-ordinator & moderator on the forum & came up with ideas for events I wanted to start but it didn't take off as people wanted to chat in threads or in P.M. as that was what they were used to. Now I've been given the role of forum archivist which is a very time-consuming role. I'm still in training but most of the time I'm left to my own devices anyway. I got a fun job to do at work the other week though. There was a Xmas tree festival & unfortunately the guy who was playing Santa had an accident & we couldn't get anyone else to be Santa so they wanted Mrs. Claus. I'd always wanted to be Mrs. Claus. I saw Mrs. Claus's costume & asked who was being Mrs. Claus. I was asked to try it on. It fit me & suited me very well & I got told as I was brilliant with children & looked the part I could be Mrs. Claus. I loved it & the children loved it.

I'd love to read that book though. Maybe I'll get a chance to read it later when I have more time.

 

[Moxie]

Well frankly no study claiming unvaccinated people are 11 x more likely to die from covid is worth looking at 'cos it's 100% bs going by the official stats always hovering around 99.6% globally in mild condition. As I mentioned earlier, 11 x more likely plus very significant comorbidities (smoker/lung issues, big drinker, diabetes, heart disease etc) and fat asf and no doubt a greatly increased risk but if you genuinely think 100% healthy but unvaccinated people with a healthy BMI who eat well and exercise regularly are 11x more likely to die from covid you're being very naive. Not a closed mind, I just don't read rubbish stats to push any pro vaccine agenda. There are plenty of fake studies out there too or else they forget significant supplementary information like weight, age, underlying health issues etc, not to mention the Pfizer whistleblower's report with lamestream media conveniently brushed aside and ignored for obvious reasons since they're in Big Pharma's pockets.

You're very interested in your own opinion, and don't mind repeating the same things over and over. For those who might be interested though, this is from NPR, (our public radio, who are NOT in Big Pharma's pockets, which you can look up but I have noted that here before https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely

 

[Front242]

You're very interested in your own opinion, and don't mind repeating the same things over and over. For those who might be interested though, this is from NPR, (our public radio, who are NOT in Big Pharma's pockets, which you can look up but I have noted that here before https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely

Not many are gullible enough to believe that, especially since the study is from cdc.gov lol. You'll have to do better than that, sorry.

 

[Front242]

This woman is an utter pos scum of the earth and she's laid it out for all to see here.

 

[El Dude]

Well, it's made the Boston Globe, and lots of right-wing media in the general mainstream. What's your takeaway?

My takeaway is that--if half of what RJK says is true--Tony Fauci is a terrible human being - not just run-of-the-mill big government pencil pusher, but someone who may be responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not multiples of that. Yet he's a hero among the American "left" because he rolled his eyes at Trump.

 

[El Dude]

This is very much worth listening to, especially for those "with questions" but still want mainstream scientific takes:

 

[Moxie]

My takeaway is that--if half of what RJK says is true--Tony Fauci is a terrible human being - not just run-of-the-mill big government pencil pusher, but someone who may be responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not multiples of that. Yet he's a hero among the American "left" because he rolled his eyes at Trump.

In fairness, he's a hero to many because he completely changed his mind about the AIDS crisis, and helped change public policy on it. So it's not really that tribal and facile.

 

[Moxie]

This is very much worth listening to, especially for those "with questions" but still want mainstream scientific takes:

I'm not clear how that doctor qualifies as a "mainstream scientific take," as he was fired from Baylor for his claims, which are deemed to be unscientific and false, by Baylor. If it were 15 minutes long, I'd give it a listen. At 1 hr. 13 min, it may or may not. I have read some of what he's about, and promise to look more. Leaving off some of the more controversial stuff for now, though, he does seem to agree that monoclonal antibodies work, once the virus is contracted, which I think everyone agrees with. However, for those who are opposed to Big Pharma getting rich off of Covid-19, the monoclonal antibody therapy is VERY expensive. Prevention is cheaper. I guess we all just still disagree on what "prevention" means. Or mostly.