Covid vaccine - opinions?

[Moxie]

5 million from 7 billion is minuscule, and we should never make light of the fact that the majority of people who catch covid will have an easy time of it.

And we should definitely never make light of how much many people who survive it actually suffer having it, including from long-term symptoms.

I’m not hitting age and obesity at all. There are a lot co-morbidities at play here. But look at that mortality figures in your country, and mine, and anywhere else, the older the age group, the more chance of death, unfortunately. But even here it isn’t all bad news, Covid isn’t a certain fatality for even the very old. They still have a good chance of surviving. As for the other co-morbidities, some of them are things which should inspire people to look deeply at their lifestyles and see if they can help themselves a bit more. We can’t always say that people are victims, and are unable to make changes, no matter how small. We all have our own immune system and we have to make efforts to help it fight this thing. The vaccine alone isn’t sufficient.

You haven't been hitting on "age and obesity" much. I'd go back and count all the times you and Front cited them, combined, but I'm not that puny. And again with the "lifestyles." OK, I'm over telling you you're a judgmental old so-and-so. But here's where we agree: vaccines alone aren't sufficient. I don't think anyone, including the politicians you so slag have said that. But, if I did just get a concession there, vaccines CAN get us further down the road. If we armor ourselves against it, we can stop the spread, but, IMO, that takes vaccine.

Why try change me now?

If your missus can put up with you, who am I to say?

 

[Moxie]

No, I realize the disproportionate deaths in the US by race but poverty and socio-economic disadvantage doesn't mean you have to eat really badly and not exercise. There are tons of cheap and healthy foods and walking or running is free. No matter what the circumstances, these two are easily managed. There will always be exceptions and obviously some younger and healthier people are affected by covid but by and large the stats don't lie it remains mostly a virus affecting the elderly and immunocompromised.

And why does that make it of less importance?

 

[Front242]

And why does that make it of less importance?

How about you tell me where I said it was cos I didn't?

 

[Kieran]

And we should definitely never make light of how much many people who survive it actually suffer having it, including from long-term symptoms.

Of course, though I’d like to see the stats that compare these people with the ones who breeze through it, let alone those who go through it without symptoms. These stats don’t exist, of course, but you can’t say anyone is making light of the pandemic when we’re all trying to place it in context. Of course we’re sympathetic to anyone who has badly suffered, and even more so with fatalities, but we have to be glad that this is a much more benign pandemic than the more scaremongering aspects of government and media make it out to be.

You haven't been hitting on "age and obesity" much. I'd go back and count all the times you and Front cited them, combined, but I'm not that puny. And again with the "lifestyles." OK, I'm over telling you you're a judgmental old so-and-so.

No, I’m not judgmental. I’ve shown stats and it’s a bugbear with me that no government or health agency is pushing this, “get outside, exercise more, drink less alcohol, watch your diet, take responsibility for your health and help your immune system, it’s your best pal in a pandemic.”

And before AP reminds us again of how frail and fragile we all are, and that some of us can’t do this, I know some people can’t do it. The majority can and it’s in our best interests to make an effort.

We shouldn’t only be fed a diet of government propaganda, which is often wrong and deliberately misleading, and almost always pushing the mono culture. Less government in your life is always better anyway, but this is an area of positive development, for people, to see this as an opportunity to finally keep a New Years resolution regarding diet and exercise. Most people don’t need the vaccine, they have a functioning, stubborn immune system that’s holding its own, but we all can try to improve our health - and this is also a factor in fighting the disease.

But, if I did just get a concession there, vaccines CAN get us further down the road. If we armor ourselves against it, we can stop the spread, but, IMO, that takes vaccine.

This depends on the durability of the vaccine, which so far is not looking promising if we require a booster after only 3 months and whether it’s going to hold up under the strain of the variants. It isn’t superstition to say that there are genuine qualms about releasing a vaccine when the virus is still in flux, there’s also logic there. If the virus mutates to resist the vaccine, then we’ve just handed Pfizer $1000 a second for nothing.

But in principle, and in practice so far, the vaccine has definitely helped.

If your missus can put up with you, who am I to say?

Oh, young Front can put up with me too, he knows I need to publicly shows my Dublin colours when the dreadful southern hell hole Cork gets mentioned!

 

[Front242]

So far it looks like the Omicron scariant could be the best news of the year so far. As everyone hopes and, as is the norm for viruses, they get more transmissible and less deadly with time. If this takes over delta as the dominant strain life could be way better soon and the morons in power need to chill the hell out with the scaremongering and restrictions if it does and stop all the vaccine mandates and covid passes.

WHO says no deaths reported from Omicron yet as Covid variant spreads.​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ted-from-omicron-yet-as-covid-variant-spreads

 

[Kieran]

So far it looks like the Omicron scariant could be the best news of the year so far. As everyone hopes and, as is the norm for viruses, they get more transmissible and less deadly with time. If this takes over delta as the dominant strain life could be way better soon and the morons in power need to chill the hell out with the scaremongering and restrictions if it does and stop all the vaccine mandates and covid passes.

WHO says no deaths reported from Omicron yet as Covid variant spreads.​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ted-from-omicron-yet-as-covid-variant-spreads

That is good news, but I’ve learned from the good news we got, that the vaccine may last a lifetime, that good news in this Covid era needs to pass a test of time to be proven.

But I agree with you, brother, it’s the pattern of viruses that they mutate themselves into oblivion, while the populace builds immunity against it. Omicron is predicted to become the dominant version, so fingers crossed!

 

[Front242]

That is good news, but I’ve learned from the good news we got, that the vaccine may last a lifetime, that good news in this Covid era needs to pass a test of time to be proven.

But I agree with you, brother, it’s the pattern of viruses that they mutate themselves into oblivion, while the populace builds immunity against it. Omicron is predicted to become the dominant version, so fingers crossed!

Well, the vaccines are here to stay and my mum got her booster recently and I dunno if she's just naive or genuinely was hopeful but said to the pharmacist I hope I won't see you again and the pharmacist was like, you'll be back for more in a few months. This is gonna be a case of booster for the booster of the 10th booster.

 

[Moxie]

How about you tell me where I said it was cos I didn't?

It's my opinion that you make light of the virus all the time, and you keep citing those reasons.

 

[Kieran]

It's my opinion that you make light of the virus all the time, and you keep citing those reasons.

I don’t think he makes light of the virus at all. He cites official sources, and so are they making light of it when they list the age groups most at risk? The co-morbidities most in danger?

Yourself and Anti-Pusher have been trying this for a few days now, accusing me and front of lacking sympathy, of being judgmental, of making light of things, you show us personal anecdotes and accuse us of not weeping loud enough, it’s as if you’re portraying yourselves somehow as being more compassionate, which is farcical, and smacks of virtue signalling, because the discussion isn’t about any of our levels of compassion, but it’s about the science, and the virus, and the ethical issues with the waning vaccines.

You're being judgmental yourself when you accuse us like this, meanwhile it took me the pages to get anti-pusher to agree that he believes the stats the CDC release. Stats that are actually relevant to the discussion.

Why don’t you both stop with personal judgments on us, you can’t read our minds.

 

[Moxie]

That is good news, but I’ve learned from the good news we got, that the vaccine may last a lifetime, that good news in this Covid era needs to pass a test of time to be proven.

But I agree with you, brother, it’s the pattern of viruses that they mutate themselves into oblivion, while the populace builds immunity against it. Omicron is predicted to become the dominant version, so fingers crossed!

I read this about mutations, which is informative:

We shouldn’t worry when a virus mutates during disease outbreaks - Nature Microbiology

Mutation. The word naturally conjures fears of unexpected and freakish changes. Ill-informed discussions of mutations thrive during virus outbreaks, including the ongoing spread of SARS-CoV-2. In reality, mutations are a natural part of the virus life cycle and rarely impact outbreaks dramatically.

www.nature.com

And thanks, Brother Front, for the Guardian article above.

It's rather complicated, apparently, to predict which direction mutations go, (as to more deadly or less,) but "mutating" is not, in and of itself, it appears, something to be feared.

I also understood that the original Covid 19 was very deadly, and this is not, in evolutionary terms, "good" or advantageous for a virus, in that it kills its host too quickly to transmit effectively, and therefore risks extinction. Therefore, it mutates to be less deadly, but more highly transmissible. They can't guarantee us that each mutation will be reduced in virulence. It can go either way. But, with the vaccines, I think, the less the little bastards can transmit, and therefore, have a greater chance of dying on the vine, rather than living on and mutating further. Vaccinations have always been about isolating disease and blocking transmission. I think this one is working to some extent at doing that. Hopefully, eventually, (and soon,) we have a watered-down version that is controllable and doesn't make most too sick. Maybe we're already close.

 

[Moxie]

I don’t think he makes light of the virus at all. He cites official sources, and so are they making light of it when they list the age groups most at risk? The co-morbidities most in danger?

Yourself and Anti-Pusher have been trying this for a few days now, accusing me and front of lacking sympathy, of being judgmental, of making light of things, you show us personal anecdotes and accuse us of not weeping loud enough, it’s as if you’re portraying yourselves somehow as being more compassionate, which is farcical, and smacks of virtue signalling, because the discussion isn’t about any of our levels of compassion, but it’s about the science, and the virus, and the ethical issues with the waning vaccines.

You're being judgmental yourself when you accuse us like this, meanwhile it took me the pages to get anti-pusher to agree that he believes the stats the CDC release. Stats that are actually relevant to the discussion.

Why don’t you both stop with personal judgments on us, you can’t read our minds.

Sorry but I think he does and always has. Clearly, we have some difference of opinion as to how impactful this virus has been. So, sure, it's going to feel a little more cold-blooded, to those of us who feel more impact, say, here in NYC. Your position is that people should take more responsibility for their own health. My position is that not everyone is in the position to do that. Here we differ. But I do resent the phrase "virtue-signaling," as it implies that I don't feel deeply my position. That it's a pose. It's not. And I don't see why the discussion isn't about compassion. For me, it is. Which is specifically why I choose to take a vaccine. I'm not fearful, for myself, of getting Covid.

No, I can't read your minds, but I can read your posts, and that is what I am reacting to.

 

[Kieran]

Sorry but I think he does and always has. Clearly, we have some difference of opinion as to how impactful this virus has been. So, sure, it's going to feel a little more cold-blooded, to those of us who feel more impact, say, here in NYC. Your position is that people should take more responsibility for their own health. My position is that not everyone is in the position to do that. Here we differ. But I do resent the phrase "virtue-signaling," as it implies that I don't feel deeply my position. That it's a pose. It's not. And I don't see why the discussion isn't about compassion. For me, it is. Which is specifically why I choose to take a vaccine. I'm not fearful, for myself, of getting Covid.

No, I can't read your minds, but I can read your posts, and that is what I am reacting to.

And you’re being judgmental about them, while reminding us how compassionate you are. As for who’s been impacted, we all have been impacted. We’re all going through this. We’re not living in a country unaffected by Covid. You may resent the phrase virtue signalling, if so then stop calling us callous and judgmental and saying we don’t care. We resent that too. We have families and friends who are equally affected by the virus and equally in danger. Do you think so little of us that you think we don’t care?

You took the vaccine because you feel compassion. Why did I take it? I haven’t for one single second during the pandemic feared the virus personally, and I don’t feel I need the vaccine, but I told earlier in the thread why I took it - it was because the young and old alike were being locked down too long and the vaccines showed really promise of bringing this to an end.

We’re all making sacrifices.

As for people taking more reasonably for their health, I have also said several times that is not always possible for everyone - so we are on this - but it is possible for most people. It’s necessary during a pandemic to help your immune system, and we can do that by more exercise, looking at our diet and driving habits. This is common sense.

The topic is huge enough for us without us attacking each other. And it’s a very interesting topic too, there’s so much detail to absorb, and so much to learn…

 

[Moxie]

And you’re being judgmental about them, while reminding us how compassionate you are. As for who’s been impacted, we all have been impacted. We’re all going through this. We’re not living in a country unaffected by Covid. You may resent the phrase virtue signalling, if so then stop calling us callous and judgmental and saying we don’t care. We resent that too. We have families and friends who are equally affected by the virus and equally in danger. Do you think so little of us that you think we don’t care?

You took the vaccine because you feel compassion. Why did I take it? I haven’t for one single second during the pandemic feared the virus personally, and I don’t feel I need the vaccine, but I told earlier in the thread why I took it - it was because the young and old alike were being locked down too long and the vaccines showed really promise of bringing this to an end.

We’re all making sacrifices.

As for people taking more reasonably for their health, I have also said several times that is not always possible for everyone - so we are on this - but it is possible for most people. It’s necessary during a pandemic to help your immune system, and we can do that by more exercise, looking at our diet and driving habits. This is common sense.

The topic is huge enough for us without us attacking each other. And it’s a very interesting topic too, there’s so much detail to absorb, and so much to learn…

I honestly didn't think I was attacking. I thought it was a discussion. These topics can be emotional, as you said. I'm trying to understand everyone's position, but debate my own POV.

 

[Kieran]

I honestly didn't think I was attacking. I thought it was a discussion. These topics can be emotional, as you said. I'm trying to understand everyone's position, but debate my own POV.

It’s not that the topic can be emotional, but that people get emotional discussing it. This is a consequence of us having too many nasty culture wars where people make claims about their opponent that are designed to silence them, or make them hesitant to speak. Nazi, racist, transphobe, when their opponent might be nothing of the sort, they might simply dislike the BLM organisation, or disagree that a man can become a woman. That doesn’t mean they fear or hate anyone. Now me and Front are accused of being heartless and judgmental, but you and AP present yourselves as being the compassionate ones.

The facts: this is a pandemic of the aged and the immunity compromised. It’s harming mostly the ones who have less resistance to it, and they’re the ones go should by most concerned, and most looked after by society, and most cocooned..

 

[Front242]

It's my opinion that you make light of the virus all the time, and you keep citing those reasons.

And you're completely wrong yet again. I'm giving clear facts as has been stated here many times that the most affected are the elderly and immunocompromised to point out the utter madness of trying to vaccinate everyone else besides those cohorts and to have the audacity to mandate vaccines to those who don't need them, denying unvaccinated people privileges in society, treating them as lepers for a virus most of the them don't even have and if they DID have it then they now have natural immunity 13 x better than 2 Pfizer shots per data from Israel and should therefore not be subjected to this bs. This is all about money, corruption, control and power and NOT a virus. If the vaccines are so great then surely the ones most at risk are protected and why the need for anything further ?! Let the rest of the world get on with their lives 100% as normal if the vulnerable are protected. There is also absolutely ZERO heartless about ANY of that. It's 100% realistic. Treatments will be coming in a big way also in 2022 so this vaccine push needs to stop. Treat those who get sick badly 'cos most don't.

 

[El Dude]

Anyone read or going to read RJK Jr's new book?

 

[Moxie]

It’s not that the topic can be emotional, but that people get emotional discussing it. This is a consequence of us having too many nasty culture wars where people make claims about their opponent that are designed to silence them, or make them hesitant to speak. Nazi, racist, transphobe, when their opponent might be nothing of the sort, they might simply dislike the BLM organisation, or disagree that a man can become a woman. That doesn’t mean they fear or hate anyone. Now me and Front are accused of being heartless and judgmental, but you and AP present yourselves as being the compassionate ones.

The facts: this is a pandemic of the aged and the immunity compromised. It’s harming mostly the ones who have less resistance to it, and they’re the ones go should by most concerned, and most looked after by society, and most cocooned..

I hope you don't think that anything I have said is designed to make you or Front "hesitant to speak." Though, knowing you both, and you being Oirish and all, I suppose that would be a fool's errand, anyway. Obviously, we see this issue very differently, but I don't think either of you is heartless or judgmental. I'm just saying that these particular opinions sound judgmental, to me. No matter what I say, you keep coming back with "aged" and "immune-compromised," as if nothing else is a factor. So, you weren't so interested in my opinion, after all. But if we are to "cocoon" the people that you agree should be and need to be, then a vaccine is a way of doing it. That's the point of vaccines.

 

[Moxie]

And you're completely wrong yet again. I'm giving clear facts as has been stated here many times that the most affected are the elderly and immunocompromised to point out the utter madness of trying to vaccinate everyone else besides those cohorts and to have the audacity to mandate vaccines to those who don't need them, denying unvaccinated people privileges in society, treating them as lepers for a virus most of the them don't even have and if they DID have it then they now have natural immunity 13 x better than 2 Pfizer shots per data from Israel and should therefore not be subjected to this bs. This is all about money, corruption, control and power and NOT a virus. If the vaccines are so great then surely the ones most at risk are protected and why the need for anything further ?! Let the rest of the world get on with their lives 100% as normal if the vulnerable are protected. There is also absolutely ZERO heartless about ANY of that. It's 100% realistic. Treatments will be coming in a big way also in 2022 so this vaccine push needs to stop. Treat those who get sick badly 'cos most don't.

Please read my above, which is also directed at you. You dismiss every other factor I have presented as making people susceptible to Covid, and just hammer on about elderly and immunocompromised. I resent that you can't read what I say and take in other factors. Your claim that natural immunity offers 13x more cover than vaccine is disputed, if you are fair. If we're going to be really fair here, we do know that a lot of information and data is in flux. I can offer you a new study that says the unvaccinated are 11x more likely to die of Covid than the unvaccinated, here in the US. I disagree with you that it's "all" about money, corruption, control and power. That position is way too paranoid for me, as I have said. I'm entitled to my opinion, so please stop telling me that I am "completely wrong again" and all the time.

As to the bolded above, you do want to protect the vulnerable. Which I admire and agree with. I just say that all of us being vaccinated would be the way. You don't agree.

I understand that mandates are a controversial topic, which I'd like to debate separately.

 

[Moxie]

Anyone read or going to read RJK Jr's new book?

Not me, because life is short, and there are so many good books to read. You?

 

[El Dude]

Not me, because life is short, and there are so many good books to read. You?

No, though I listened to a couple of interviews with him about it.

It is interesting how the book is a huge bestseller, but receiving absolutely no coverage from any mainstream sources.