Brexit

Federberg

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Clutching at straws Fberg... I voted because I thought my vote wouldn't count... doesn't really cut it with me... Good luck with that argument.

Just saw it in the news mate. I'm not making any point other than expressing my contempt for people who would say that, please don't misunderstand me. The vote is the vote is the vote. Not in my nature to dwell. I'm to busy trying to figure out how to make the best of it. Just thought it was funny mate.
 

britbox

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Yeah, it was quite funny... I've had a riot on social media today listening to people pick apart the Brexit vote. I'm an idiot, capitalist, socialist, racist, xenophobe, clueless... all rather hilarious to be honest... water off a duck's back.. Even funnier considering I never even cast a vote in the first place.
 
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EdbergsGhost

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^My worry is that they'll have no choice but to get us out of the EU as quickly and ruthlessly as possible. Ironically it might end up being a great thing for the remaining countries if they try to create improvements that stop break ups from happening. But we'll not get the benefit of that

There are going to have to be strong words, and no doubt the Guardian will aid and abet in the sabre rattling from Brussels. When it's all said and done I doubt they will be so summarily dismissive of their largest military power and second largest economy. I also doubt Brussels will change much at all... that's not in its nature.
 

Mary

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Mary, something has been broken for quite some time. When you take away the people's voice, when you appoint bureaucrats without real understanding of what's going on, when your elected officials pat you on the head like little children and don't do what you elected them to do, when they tell you what to think and how to think and what to say and how to say it whether you agree with it or not, then resentment builds.

This has been twenty years in coming. It's good that the boil has been lanced and all the gunk has surfaced. Healing will come. The people that voted leave aren't evil, xenophobic, racists. Neither are they fat, unintelligent, backward looking and thinking folk. The remain contingent needs to drop that belittling, elitist language or things will take a lot longer to reconcile.

I could not agree with you more. It has been more than fifty years coming. I come from the North East - Newcastle where poverty has been a reality for generations. I shared the disgust of Northeners when a minister with special responsibility for the NE was appointed He had never been to the NE and never came! That was 1967 or 1968. Since then the feeling in the North that the UK is governed by old Etonians in the South for them to line their own pockets and that policiticians are not to be trusted has grown and been shown to be true with every year. I now live in the SE near London and I hear many stereotypes about beer swilling flat cap Northeners. And people still say there is no North South divide.

I also agree that leave voters are not racists - this was a protest vote against austerity and against a system that no longer represents the people with integrity. But there are plenty of racists in the UK and this referendum gave them a platform. Someone tweeted recently showing the front pages of a national newspaper - page after page of racist rubbish. About 40 front pages.

The tragedy now is that I think many have lost the wish to reconcile and that rather than a UK it willm be England dragging poor Wales along and goodbye to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Both political parties in disarray and the EEC determined to punish us won't help.

Sorry if this sounds emotive. It is a bad day to be English I think.
 
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Federberg

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I could not agree with you more. It has been more than fifty years coming. I come from the North East - Newcastle where poverty has been a reality for generations. I shared the disgust of Northeners when a minister with special responsibility for the NE was appointed He had never been to the NE and never came! That was 1967 or 1968. Since then the feeling in the North that the UK is governed by old Etonians in the South for them to line their own pockets and that policiticians are not to be trusted has grown and been shown to be true with every year. I now live in the SE near London and I hear many stereotypes about beer swilling flat cap Northeners. And people still say there is no North South divide.

I also agree that leave voters are not racists - this was a protest vote against austerity and against a system that no longer represents the people with integrity. But there are plenty of racists in the UK and this referendum gave them a platform. Someone tweeted recently showing the front pages of a national newspaper - page after page of racist rubbish. About 40 front pages.

The tragedy now is that I think many have lost the wish to reconcile and that rather than a UK it willm be England dragging poor Wales along and goodbye to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Both political parties in disarray and the EEC determined to punish us won't help.

Sorry if this sounds emotive. It is a bad day to be English I think.

I think you're spot on. Do you know that there is no other country in the world with such a relationship with its capital city? London is unique. Not only is it a ridiculous proportion of the national economy but politicians continuously do whatever it takes to increase the anomaly. Just take the constant push to add another runway to Heathrow. It's utterly baffling. You have people travelling down from Birmingham and Manchester to travel abroad. How does this make sense? If politicians were serious about increasing employment in the north you would be hearing about efforts to expand Liverpool or Manchester airport and dissuade traveller from those areas from coming south to travel. And there's so much more of this type of thing. Utterly bizarre. And the political dividend of pushing development outside the south east would be so big I can't understand why they don't do it
 
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Mary

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They have been happy to push unwanted developments - Windscale AKA Sellafield, almost a massive nuclear disaster. Fracking for Yorkshire. But apart from North Sea Oil very little that the North has wanted.
And of course our biggest industries were coal and ship building and fishing. It's hard to describe the impact of the death of mining. They closed the pit, the post office, the Church and then they closed the village - Total devastation for so many communities.
Nissan has been a lifeline for the Sunderland area but what now? Over half their output has been going to Europe....
Time for a double gin and an early night I think. Thanks for listening!
 
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EdbergsGhost

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They have been happy to push unwanted developments - Windscale AKA Sizewell, almost a massive nuclear disaster. Fracking for Yorkshire. But apart from North Sea Oil very little that the North has wanted.
And of course our biggest industries were coal and ship building and fishing. It's hard to describe the impact of the death of mining. They closed the pit, the post office, the Church and then they closed the village - Total devastation for so many communities.
Nissan has been a lifeline for the Sunderland area but what now? Over half their output has been going to Europe....
Time for a double gin and an early night I think. Thanks for listening!

Bless your heart Mary, it's devastating to watch that unfold and even more so when you're close to people who are going through it.
 

teddytennisfan

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SO LONG as britain keeps going towards REAL independence FROM THE USA SPAWN --

this FIRST STEP to DISSOLVE the EU-NATO really -- as it OUGHT to be -- which are THE

right and left hands of AMERICAN empire of fascist corporatist war and money racketeering --

being the 'NATO -- 'military enforcement arm' on one hand
and the IMF/world bank, TTIP american wall street corporatism arm on the OTHER hand

in other words -- the combination of economic, political , military FASCISM that is the USA -- OVER EUROPE...and through it the ''expansion" to the world as ''allies" (which are more like the USA'S pawns and foot soldiers).

then the EXIT by britain an hopefull the REST OF EUROPE -to dissolve this EU/NATO ENTITY and reconstitute europe as a family of unique nations in peace --

is a GOOD THING.

BRITAIN -- DID A GOOD THING BY the PEOPLE'S actual choice.
the OTHER good thing -- if mainly by CAMERON'S and only the government's decision -- (not that they really cared about the people -- but nonetheless it is a GOOD thing and of economic political indepenence FROM THE USA)

WAS LAST YEAR -- when BRITAIN ALSO was the FIRST to BREAK RANKS

FROM WASHINGTON DC'S diktat:

which ordered and twisted governments' arms everywhnere to NOT JOIN

the CHINESE CREATED ASIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AND INVESTMENT BANK ..to rival the IMF, WORLD BANK --

washington had ordered countries to ''ISOLATE CHINA" -- clearly for fear that there is NOW A powerful -- very well-funded (half of it by china's ministry of finance) -- bank with starting capital of at least 200 billion CASH - to rise to at least 500 B in 2 years -- to

TRULY fund job creating, infrastructure creating projects in needy asian nations -- that IN TURN become prosperous so that GOOD commerce can be had -- not just with themselves BUT EVEN EUROPE and the rest of the world.

BRITAIN WAS THE FIRST to courageously DEFY washington's -- OBAMA'S ''royal command" --

and it BROKE THE DAM -- OVERNIGHT after britain showed THAT courage to be one of the founding, contributing members which WILL come back to britain in forms of GOOD prospering emerging nations as partner markets for BRITISH commerce NOT dictated TO by BRUSSELS OR WASHINGTON --

dozens OF european countries joined - their asian counterparts...until over 50 founding members were the result NO MATTER HOW emperor obama and washington and wall street WHINED AND WHINED and made putdowns.

lol.

now britain -- should STOP trying to resurrect the ''british empire" -- it is OVER - gone, long ago -- but INSTEAD be a NORMAL independent country - full of its own creativem, productive people that doesn't NEED to FOLLOW WASHINGTON'S ORDERS -- militarily or economically or politically -- and THRIVE just as BRITAIN --

IT IS GOOD ENOUGH TO JUST BE BRITAIN and nothing more -- and be prosperous enough as much as british people WANT! WITH all the rest of the world just waiting to BE trreated by britain as EQUALS rather than former co.lonies and potential adversaries where there is NO need for it.

ONLY WASHINGTON LOVES THAT KIND OF GAME! it's the ''exceptional nation" as OBAMA SAYS -- after all...

NOT!!!...............except in KILLING, ENSLAVING, DESTROYING COUNTRIES THAT WONT' BOW TO WASHINGTON AND WALL STREET AND THE PENTAGON, LOL.
 

teddytennisfan

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Which threat from Russia and China are you talking about?

EXACTLY -- WHAT IS THIS ''THREAT FROM RUSSIA AND CHINA?"

people -- europeans are STILL SWALLOWING THAT PHANTOM they made themselves and washington keeps pusshing>


the ''THREAT" IS -- ''the threat to washington's global hegemony and impunity TO order countries about or destroy them at will"

that's what!!

china has NO INTEREST IN GLOBAL EMPIRE -- SHE IS OLD AND ANCIENT AND WISE ENOUGH -- AND HAS BEEN AN EMPIRE IN HER OWN CONFINES -- to know it is an impossibility and FUTILE AND SELF-DEFEATING...

SO DOES RUSSIA KNOW -- russia has NO interest in grabbing LAND from europe - or anywhere -- she is THE BIGGEST RESOURCE RICHEST COUNTRY on earth!!

and is worth TEN TIMES EUROPE just by her resources!

ONLY WASHINGTON WANTS ALL THAT LAND AND RESOURCES AND CONTROL OVER THINGS AND PEOPLE america has NO BUSINESS imaging It HAS the right to be the worlds ruler when ALL it has shown is DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND MISERY wherever washington sinks its CLAWS in!!
 

teddytennisfan

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sputniknews.com
Why the UK Said Bye Bye to the EU
Sputnik
© REUTERS/ Francois Lenoir

The irrepressibly mediocre Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, posing as a “historian”, had warned that Brexit, “could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but Western political civilization in its entirety”.

That’s foolish. Brexit proved that it’s immigration, stupid. And once again, it’s the economy, stupid (although the British neoliberal establishment never paid attention). But serious bets can be made the EU system in Brussels won’t learn anything from the shock therapy – and won’t reform itself. There will be rationalizations that after all the UK was always classically whiny, obtrusive and demanding special privileges when dealing with the EU. As for “Western political civilization”, what will end – and this is a big thing — is the special transatlantic relationship between the US and the EU with Britain as an American Trojan Horse.

So of course this all goes monumentally beyond a mere match between a hopelessly miscalculating Cameron, now fallen on his sword, and the recklessly ambitious court jester Boris Johnson – a Donald Trump with better vocabulary and speech patterns.

Scotland, predictably, voted Remain, and may probably hold a new referendum — and leave the UK — rather than be dragged out by white working class English votes. Sinn Fein already wants a vote on united Ireland. Denmark, the Netherlands and even Poland and Hungary will want special status inside the EU, or else. Across Europe, the extreme right stampede is on. Marine Le Pen wants a French referendum. Geert Wilders wants a Dutch referendum. As for the vast majority of British under-25s who voted Remain, they may be contemplating one-way tickets not to the continent, but beyond.

Show me the people

Anglo-French historian Robert Tombs has remarked that when Europeans talk about history they refer to the Roman Empire, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Great Britain is somewhat overlooked. In reciprocity, quite a few Britons still consider Europe an entity that should be kept at a safe distance.

To compound the problem, this is not a “Europe of peoples”. Brussels absolutely detests European public opinion, and the system exhibits an iron resistance to reform. This current EU project that ultimately aims at a federation, modeled on the US, does not cut it in most of Britain. Arguably this is one of the key reasons behind Brexit – which for its part has already disunited the kingdom and may eventually downgrade it into a tiny trading post on the edge of Europe.

Lacking a “European people”, the Brussels system could not but be articulated as a Kafkaesque, unelected bureaucracy. Moreover, the representatives of this people-deprived Europe in Brussels actually defend what they consider to be their national interest, and not the “European” interest.

© AFP 2016/ Lindsey Parnaby

Brexit
though does not mean Britain will be free from the dictates of the European Commission (EC). The EC does propose policy, but nothing can be followed through without decisions from the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers, which group representatives of all elected governments of member states.

Arguably Remain, in the best possible case, would have led to some soul-searching in Brussels, and a wake-up call, translating into a more flexible monetary policy; a push to contain immigration inside African borders; and more opening towards Russia. The UK would remain in Europe giving more weight to countries outside the eurozone while Germany would concentrate on the 19-member eurozone nations.

So Remain would have led to the UK increasing its politico-economic weight in Brussels while Germany would be more open to moderate growth (instead of austerity). Although Britain arguably would wince at the notion of a future eurozone Treasure Minister, a European FBI and a European Minister of the Interior, in fact the whole notion of a complete economic and monetary union.

That’s all water under the bridge now. Additionally, don't forget the mighty single market drama.

© AFP 2016/ DANIEL ROLAND

The UK not only will lose duty-free access to the EU’s single market of 500 million people; it will have to renegotiate every single trade deal with the rest of the world since all of them have been EU-negotiated. French economy minister and presidential hopeful Emmanuel Macron has already warned that, “if the UK wants a commercial access treaty to the European market, the British must contribute to the European budget like the Norwegians and the Swiss do. If London doesn’t want that, then it must be a total exit.” Britain will be locked out of the single market – to which over 50% of its exports go — unless it pays almost all that it currently pays. Moreover, London must still accept freedom of movement, as in European immigration.

The City gets a black eye

Brexit defeated an overwhelming array of what Zygmunt Bauman defined as the global elites of liquid modernity; the City of London, Wall Street, the IMF, the Fed, the European Central Bank (ECB), major hedge/investment funds, the whole interconnected global banking system.

The City of London, predictably, voted Remain by over 75%. An overwhelming $2.7 trillion is traded every day in the “square mile”, which employs almost 400,000 people. And it’s not only the square mile, as the City now also includes Canary Wharf (HQ of quite a few big banks) and Mayfair (privileged hang out of hedge funds).

The City of London – the undisputed financial capital of Europe — also manages a whopping $1.65 trillion of client assets, wealth literally from all over the planet. In Treasure Islands, Nicholas Shaxson argues, “financial services companies have flocked to London because it lets them do what they cannot do at home”.

Unbridled deregulation coupled with unrivalled influence on the global economic system amount to a toxic mix. So Brexit may also be interpreted as a vote against corruption permeating England’s most lucrative industry.

Things will change. Drastically. There will be no more “passporting”, by which banks can sell products for all 28 EU members, accessing a $19 trillion integrated economy. All it takes is a HQ in London and a few satellite mini-offices. Passporting will be up for fierce negotiation, as well as what happens to London’s euro-denominated trading floors.

I followed Brexit out of Hong Kong – which 19 years ago had its own Brexit, actually saying bye bye to the British Empire to join China. Beijing is worried that Brexit will translate into capital outflows, “depreciation pressure” on the yuan, and disturbance of the Bank of China’s management of monetary policy.

Brexit could even seriously affect China-EU relations, as Beijing in thesis might lose influence in Brussels without British support. It’s crucial to remember that Britain backed an investment pact between China and the EU and a joint feasibility study on a China-EU free trade agreement.

He Weiwen, co-director of the China-US-EU Study Centre under the China Association of International Trade, part of the Ministry of Commerce, is blunt; “The European Union is likely to adopt a more protectionist approach when dealing with China. For Chinese companies which have set up headquarters or branches in the UK, they may not be able to enjoy tariff-free access to the wider European market after Britain leave the EU.”

That applies, for instance, to leading Chinese high-tech companies like Huawei and Tencent. Between 2000 and 2015, Britain was the top European destination for Chinese direct investment, and was the second-largest trading partner with China inside the EU.

© REUTERS/ Hannibal Hanschke

Still, it may all revert into a win-win for China. Germany, France and Luxembourg – all of them competing with London for the juicy offshore yuan business – will increase their role. Chen Long, economist with Bank of Dongguan, is confident “the European continent, especially Central and Eastern European countries, will be more actively involved in China’s ‘One Belt, One Road’ programs.”

So will Britain become the new Norway? It’s possible. Norway did very well after rejecting EU membership in a 1995 referendum. It will be a long and winding road before Article 50 is invoked and a two-year UK-EU negotiation in uncharted territory starts. Former UK Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling summed it all up; “Nobody has a clue what ‘Out’ looks like.”

The views expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Sputnik.

==============

like i've said --

the EU -- is revealed by INTERNAL leaked or forced to be opened documents by demands from ''freedom of information act" -- from old archival material in washington --

to have b een a PROJECT OF AMERICAN EMPIRE occupation and control over europe SINCE the 1940's - 1950;s.

AND I kept saying the EU -- THROUGH BRUSSELS AND NATO -- is OCCUPIED TERRITORY BY THE USA...

with ''britain as the special relationship" (due of course to being both ''angl0-societies" --)

that the USA uses as a trojan horse through UK'S captive or servile or willing fellow devotees of the anglo-american empire and ionfluence .

eXCEPT THAT AMERICA has outgrown you guys -- of britain and to america you are NOTHING but a TOOL to continue to capture EU.
 

teddytennisfan

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ONE BIG HURRAY FOR THE BRITISH LADS OF YOUR ARMY.

they voted to LEAVE EU -- BECAUSE they -- the FOOT SOLDIERS OF WASHINGTON'S ''economic miracles" --

KNOW what EU really means -- an ARM OF WASHINGTON tied to NATO..

they VOTED ''OUT'' because THEY DON'T WANT TO 'FIGHT AMERICA'S WARS".

BRAVO BRITISH LADS !!

====================================

sputniknews.com
More on Brexit
Sputnik
Columnists
20:22 24.06.2016Get short URL

They voted exit because they do not believe they should be involved in Washingtons wars. He said that his unit agreed that the wars are dictated by Washington, via Brussels, and not by the British people. He also said that that the soldiers were “taking their own pen” to the ballot box, because “they only use pencils at the polls and they could be rubbed out and changed.”

© Sputnik/ Alexei Druzhinin

Richie Allen in London, a radio presenter in Manchester, England, said that as an Irishman he remembers how the Irish vote against the EU was overturned when the people rejected the Lisbon Treaty and that already in England “they’ve begun talking about the possibility that the EU will come back with a better offer.” In other words, the exit vote is not being treated as meaningful. See his guest column

here
.

And as Stephen Lendman reports, the propaganda is already in high gear with David Cameron setting the tone by emphasizing how happy the vote has surely made Putin and ISIS (somehow these two deadly enemies are happy over the same thing!). The self-hating Russian, Garry Kasparov, said Brexit was “the perfect gift for Vladimir Putin,” as Britain’s exit leaves the EU a “weakened institution with less power to confront Putin’s assaults on Europe’s borders.” What assaults, Garry?

Former US ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul is “shocked, shocked!” The US and EU lost, Putin wins.

Of course, the vote had nothing to do with Putin or Russia. But the liars are going to try to make the British feel that they betrayed England and gave Russia power over Europe. Russian spokesman Dmitry Peskov replied to the nonsense: We are accustomed to “the Russian factor” as the explanation of all events in the universe.

The British people might think that they are out of the EU, but they are not. They have a long hard fight ahead. Washington and the British political and media establishments that serve Washington are not going to let them leave.

The views expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Sputnik.

===================

THE ARTICLE IS WRITTEN BY DR. PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS ..

former economics adviser to RONALD REAGAN.

 

britbox

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Interesting discussion on Brexit from Down Under... lots of interesting views from politicians who didn't have a dog in the fight. Refreshing.

 

Mary

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I'm still of the mind that there is a strong chance Brexit doesn't happen.

Me too - or that somehow it will be watered down. The Eastern block of the EEC seems to be opposed to the six.
 

britbox

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Me too - or that somehow it will be watered down. The Eastern block of the EEC seems to be opposed to the six.

EEC is a term I've not heard in a long time... if only :)

I mentioned to Federberg early on in this debate that I thought a No vote would lead to a second referendum... it's not as if there isn't a precedent for it... it's already happened in the past when an important treaty has been voted down... like they did in Ireland.

The whole Brexit vote scenario will already have been carefully planned for by the powers that be, and the British Government... there will be no full blown Brexit... That's why Cameron didn't invoke Article 50 (formal notice of leaving the EU) and gave three months notice... it will be part of a pre-defined contingency measure. Cameron had said during the Remain campaign that Article 50 would be invoked with immediate effect... I'll take that as more of a scaremongering tactic with regard to finality aimed at the Leave campaigners.

The biggest movers and shakers behind the scenes are the huge corporations who have huge influence and to all intents and purposes pretty much own the politicians... it's true in both the EU and the UK. Those huge corporations such as Royal Dutch Shell, BP... the major banks (who have an enormous influence) will direct the narrative and the politicians are basically puppets. A lot of EU policy is written by corporates... that's not opinion, it's fact.

I suspect a couple of bones will be thrown the way of the UK, it will be packaged as a new deal and a second referendum will end up being a Remain vote. They only need a 3% swing.
 

Mary

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I think you are right. I am so concerned at the damage done though- both economic and social. The increase in racist offences is I believe about 50 %. Would like to see Johnson and Farage start supporting these UK Citizens and disassociating themselves from the known Racist and Nazi groups. And we all need to openly oppose racism - to turn away from it is to collude with it.
 
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Federberg

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^I desperately hope you're right mate. As things stand, it's pretty clear the 'Leave' campaigners didn't plan for a win, and a lot of people who voted for 'Leave' didn't anticipate that Scotland and Northern Ireland might push to stay in the EU. Worst case scenario, the United Kingdom won't be so united anymore :(
 

Federberg

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I think you are right. I am so concerned at the damage done though- both economic and social. The increase in racist offences is I believe about 50 %. Would like to see Johnson and Farage start supporting these UK Citizens and disassociating themselves from the known Racist and Nazi groups. And we all need to openly oppose racism - to turn away from it is to colours with it.

Well I can see Boris retreating, but Farage is pretty racist, and his rant at the EU parliament yesterday doesn't provide any evidence of retreat
 

britbox

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^I desperately hope you're right mate. As things stand, it's pretty clear the 'Leave' campaigners didn't plan for a win, and a lot of people who voted for 'Leave' didn't anticipate that Scotland and Northern Ireland might push to stay in the EU. Worst case scenario, the United Kingdom won't be so united anymore :(

NI wouldn't vote out (of the UK). Voting out of the EU as part of a UK is very different from voting out from the UK altogether. NI doesn't have the numbers... the Unionist vote would come together and they'd vote to stay in (the UK)... It will take another 15-20 years before there is a Republican majority in NI... and speaking to plenty of citizens of Eire... I'm not sure they want them anyway... a vote out of the UK would lead to prolonged loyalist violence.

Scotland is another matter... but a vote into the EU outside the UK... will be close. They might carry it but it's not a good time for the Scots to do it with the oil price at rock bottom.

So, the UK as a whole... Until I see Article 50 signed and enacted then it's not a done deal... far from it. These contingencies will have been planned for beforehand by the Remain Group... and corporate Europe. I think we're going through a process that will ultimately lead to a second referendum, a few bones throne to swing the vote... and a remain in Europe vote.