Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[Moxie]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

If Marin Cilic got 3 months for failing one, then why should Troicki get 18 months for refusing one? I don't understand this system of punishment. Shouldn't it be at least equal, if you're calling a refusal an admission of guilt?

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I agree, and we've discussed why proving and not just hoping the sport is clean is important, and ways of moving forward on that, all of which I agree with. My argument is against a "hair-on-fire" approach to every article on the internet. Of the sports that are dirty, I doubt tennis is amongst the dirtiest, and I've stated my reasons why I don't think doping really helps that much in tennis. Cilic and Troicki have been called out recently, and I would only say that we should proceed with caution, particularly when potentially damaging a specific player. What I most object to is innuendo, of which there is all too much. However, why should it be hard to make the testing process and the results more universal and less opaque?

Patting tennis on the back for not being as dirty as the likes of cycling and baseball is hardly reassuring. It's like finding comfort in someone being less guilty than OJ.

And as for the idea that doping doesn't help much in tennis I really think you have the idea that "doping" means meatheads taking HGH and/or a needle in the arse and hitting the ball 500 feet. Think more of cycling and the doping methods that helped them win the ultimate test of endurance. EPO, blood doping and countless other things that can artificially boost endurance would undoubtedly give players an edge and in a sport where the margins aren't too big to begin with...it can be huge.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

If Marin Cilic got 3 months for failing one, then why should Troicki get 18 months for refusing one? I don't understand this system of punishment. Shouldn't it be at least equal, if you're calling a refusal an admission of guilt?

Exactly, unless there are levels of drugs which cause longer or shorter bans. With Cilic, they know what he took: with Troiki, they assume he's hiding the worst of it. It could be that, but I don't really know.

But typically for drug-busts, both these versions are shrouded in gossip, innuendo, denials and rumour. The innocent get named alongside the ones fighting to blame somebody else...

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I agree, and we've discussed why proving and not just hoping the sport is clean is important, and ways of moving forward on that, all of which I agree with. My argument is against a "hair-on-fire" approach to every article on the internet. Of the sports that are dirty, I doubt tennis is amongst the dirtiest, and I've stated my reasons why I don't think doping really helps that much in tennis. Cilic and Troicki have been called out recently, and I would only say that we should proceed with caution, particularly when potentially damaging a specific player. What I most object to is innuendo, of which there is all too much. However, why should it be hard to make the testing process and the results more universal and less opaque?

Patting tennis on the back for not being as dirty as the likes of cycling and baseball is hardly reassuring. It's like finding comfort in someone being less guilty than OJ.

And as for the idea that doping doesn't help much in tennis I really think you have the idea that "doping" means meatheads taking HGH and/or a needle in the arse and hitting the ball 500 feet. Think more of cycling and the doping methods that helped them win the ultimate test of endurance. EPO, blood doping and countless other things that can artificially boost endurance would undoubtedly give players an edge and in a sport where the margins aren't too big to begin with...it can be huge.

Perhaps OJ is the perfect metaphor, because I will remind you that he was actually not guilty, by law. And I do realize there are a lot of athletes getting away with stuff. I also understand that there are different kinds of doping for different effects, and I do understand what endurance means to tennis. However, my argument has always been that doping doesn't give you great shots, or tennis IQ. That's why I don't believe it happens at the highest level. At the top, they're there for other reasons, and they are also so high-profile, and get tested so often, I don't think they'd risk it. They often mention having to go through dope-testing, amongst the litany of things they have to do when they win a Slam, before they're free to go home and celebrate. And we can sometimes see the little plasters on their veins in the pressers. Doesn't that tell us anything? I would see why mid-level guys would look for a bump, however. It's worth a lot of money.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

But typically for drug-busts, both these versions are shrouded in gossip, innuendo, denials and rumour. The innocent get named alongside the ones fighting to blame somebody else...

Exactly. Tennis gets mentioned, ever so vaguely in these scandals, and I'm not saying there aren't bad eggs, but it's one thing to worry about the state of the sport, in general, in terms of doping, and it's another to cast aspersions on particular players without proof...which people do. It's not like they're coming out, player after player as clearly doping, like they are in cycling and baseball. And I don't think that's just ITF cover-up. I'm pretty sure the cycling governing body would have preferred if it hadn't come off so badly.

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

When are they gonna test Wolverine? He's surely taken more 'roids than Cilic or Troikl, right?

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Yep! Just when we got a certain poster to begrudgingly acknowledge that a top legend of the sport has knees which affect his play and cause him to miss tourneys, now we're back with the "silent ban" whispers. The word "d'oh" is maybe appropriate...

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

all the doping in the world is not going to buy you the kind of movement and shot making we see from the best of the best.

and then you can add tennis intelligence which is a factor as well obviously.


tennis is very much like a very fast moving chess game. you have to able to constantly think on the dead run.



but even more than that is the absolute relentless will. that you cant buy anywhere. you either have it or you do not. that is the single greatest variable at the very top of our sport.




as for swimming, I think my guess comes fairly well educated. it makes sense. if they are using the stuff in track field and then swimmers have to be able to benefit from it as well. both the endurance level swimmers and even the speed oriented swimmers can benefit from doping.

we will just have to do some research and find out what is happening in swimming.

certainly they can benefit in the off season as they can train harder and recover a little quicker.

 

[Moxie]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

The plot thickens. Apparently he had passed a doping control in Monte Carlo only 2 weeks prior. Perhaps he thought he would not have been controlled again so soon? Anyway, a glucose supplement? Sugar pills? Is this serious? Is glucose a masking agent?

Cilic's positive test shows though that you don't have to be muscular to be on drugs, as cyclists had already shown.

Since he passed a doping control just 2 weeks prior, why wouldn't the assumption be that he was, in fact, just caught by a carelessly taken OTC supplement? This is the kind of over-bearing assumption that I object to. Instead of thinking that, having just passed a drug test, that might mean that he really is innocent, instead you find that a double-blind for why he would have thought himself out of the woods. That's too much conspiracy assumption for me.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I think that's all it needs - transparency. Having an independent body doing the testing rather than the ITF (who are involved in promoting the sport). Putting more money into testing (particularly blood testing) and finally storing random samples for future testing years down the line.

I think that would solve the problem as in giving the fans peace of mind. That won't eradicate doping (nothing ever will) but it's about as good as it will get.

Transparent, and more clearly systematic. The recent Troicki and Cilic news highlights how confusing the rules for identifying and punishing are for the fans. As it stands today, testing and sanctioning both seem random and quixotic, which doesn't give us fans much hope for solution.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

tennis is very much like a very fast moving chess game. you have to able to constantly think on the dead run.

but even more than that is the absolute relentless will. that you cant buy anywhere. you either have it or you do not. that is the single greatest variable at the very top of our sport.

Been over this too. Willpower and enhanced brain stimulation are very much a benefit of certain steroids. I'll go back to the example of weight lifting. Guys on roids don't just push huge weights because they now feel light to them, their mind also signals triggers to their bodies saying "I can do this" because the stuff they're taking makes them superhuman. Now this isn't obviously beneficial for just weight lifting as anyone in any sport can benefit from being able to do anything their mind tells them they can do. In terms of stamina EPO gives you so much extra lung capacity you can compete at the highest level for way longer than natural sports people. It's a huge edge not only physically but psychologically because they know that even if they go down 2 sets to 0 if they hang in there they can outlast their opponents. That and the fact that playing a mammoth match means a lot less to them as their legs and bodies won't be completely destroyed like a person not on PEDs. Instead their powers of recovery are second to none and they come out the next day like a cyborg ready for more against weary opponents with nothing left in the tank.

 

[Front242]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Yep! Just when we got a certain poster to begrudgingly acknowledge that a top legend of the sport has knees which affect his play and cause him to miss tourneys, now we're back with the "silent ban" whispers. The word "d'oh" is maybe appropriate...

You might as well just call me by name. And as anyone can see the silent ban is no longer a myth and doesn't need to be whispered. They claimed Cilic was found guilty of testing positive in April and only announced it now. There's your silent ban.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

 

[Front242]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

Er maybe 'cos it's practically August and he was caught in April? And also because he was told to make up a fake injury to forfeit his 2nd round match at Wimbledon this year.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

Er maybe 'cos it's practically August and he was caught in April? And also because he was told to make up a fake injury to forfeit his 2nd round match at Wimbledon this year.

But that's the point, isn't it? The idea that a top player could merrily serve a ban without anyone ever knowing is pie in the sky - and unfair on everyone. Cilic's suspension was announced, possibly after due process had happened.

If any of the top 4 were to serve a "silent ban", then the others in the top 4 would know about it sooner than internet chatrooms - and it wouldn't be very silent any more...

 

[Front242]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

Er maybe 'cos it's practically August and he was caught in April? And also because he was told to make up a fake injury to forfeit his 2nd round match at Wimbledon this year.

But that's the point, isn't it? The idea that a top player could merrily serve a ban without anyone ever knowing is pie in the sky - and unfair on everyone. Cilic's suspension was announced, possibly after due process had happened.

If any of the top 4 were to serve a "silent ban", then the others in the top 4 would know about it sooner than internet chatrooms - and it wouldn't be very silent any more...

They'd probably be paid to keep quiet mafia style. Case in point, the guy involved in the Biogenesis case has already received a death threat.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

Er maybe 'cos it's practically August and he was caught in April? And also because he was told to make up a fake injury to forfeit his 2nd round match at Wimbledon this year.

But that's the point, isn't it? The idea that a top player could merrily serve a ban without anyone ever knowing is pie in the sky - and unfair on everyone. Cilic's suspension was announced, possibly after due process had happened.

If any of the top 4 were to serve a "silent ban", then the others in the top 4 would know about it sooner than internet chatrooms - and it wouldn't be very silent any more...

They'd probably be paid to keep quiet mafia style.

...by the Vatican, maybe, in cahoots with the Rothschilds...

 

[tented]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

^ Front, if you believe this, then why do you even follow tennis? Or, (let's just say it,) is it that you think Roger is sterling, and squeaky clean, and Rafa, and perhaps the other 2 dope? Or do you even suspect Federer? If you're going to make the Armstrong analogy, and talk about players "winning everything in sight" then you do imply TMF. So, how far do you think it extends?

Every time this topic comes up, Front performs his one-man version of The Crucible. Why stay in Salem if it's so bad?

For my own part, I do wonder why anyone would follow cycling, at this point.

I agree. Does any sport have such an all-consuming bad reputation as cycling? Can anyone look at it and think of anything other than PEDs?

 

[colleen66]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

I must say Im surprised Cilic got a silent ban. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind we wouldn't hear about a top player testing positive if it ever happened. But Cilic is not an elite player and hardly a household name. Anyways as Front said, the silent ban in sports is not some old wives tale after all.

Cilic is a top player.

Top player means top 5 and specifically Djokovic, Rafa, Murray and Fed. Any of those 4 tested positive we would never hear about it from the ATP because that'd damn near kill tennis. And what apparently has happened with Cilic just confirms this. Cilic is a good player but not a household name

Why would it kill tennis? Many top baseball players have faced suspensions or denied HOF entrance yet the sport continues to thrive. The same could be said for track and field. I believe that it is very dangerous to assume or imply that every top player must be using some form of enhancement. If they are guilty, let them pay the price. No one person or persons controls an entire sport.

 

[colleen66]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I think that's all it needs - transparency. Having an independent body doing the testing rather than the ITF (who are involved in promoting the sport). Putting more money into testing (particularly blood testing) and finally storing random samples for future testing years down the line.

I think that would solve the problem as in giving the fans peace of mind. That won't eradicate doping (nothing ever will) but it's about as good as it will get.

Britbox, hopefully you can shed some light on the testing procedure. I was under the impression that 3 different agencies may test a player in/out-competition. Besides the ITF, WADA also test and local anti-doping tennis agencies for the countries where tournaments are held. Do you know if they all publish their findings?