Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

always the innuendos, never the balls to spell out names.

The more you win in tennis, the more exposure to testing; before and after events. I would like to know how the technology match-up as in the dopers and those who try to catch them but even then; it's all speculation. The only possibility it's for the ATP and major investors to purposefully cover-up the positive results with the aim to protect the marketability of the sport. But such conspiracies although plausible requires air tight seal of approval among all parties involve.....lat time I check the ATP ain't wall-street money making wise........somebody would have spill the beans by now or we are close to. Until then, wishful thinking by a particular group of fans.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

can somebody provide the list of substances? Not all are created equal and some of those "substances" are actually a joke that are ban in the first place. so; where is the list of these elixirs?

 

[colleen66]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

While I do not condone PED or other enhancements in sports, in regards to cycling, if so many of the cyclist cheat, could the problem be with the sport itself? Is cheating done only for the money and glory or are we (the public, promoters, media etc.) pushing these athletes to always improve and thus back them into a corner where cheating becomes the norm in order to recover. I liken this to problems in education. In trying to always improve scores and have higher and higher standards, students and educators have become inventive in ways to address high stakes testing. Once again, I am not condoning or making excuses for cheating, but maybe some things need to be reevaluated.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

For my own part, I do wonder why anyone would follow cycling, at this point.

I agree. Does any sport have such an all-consuming bad reputation as cycling? Can anyone look at it and think of anything other than PEDs?

Cycling is a joke alright but it's probably the best time to watch it now ironically! They're being forced to clean up their act and perform drug free. Of course there will always be cheats in sport but at the height of Armstrong's reign it was a joke of a sport to watch.

 

[Front242]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

can somebody provide the list of substances? Not all are created equal and some of those "substances" are actually a joke that are ban in the first place. so; where is the list of these elixirs?

No idea actually and wouldn't it be great if this info was made public. All I can say is over here our government even ban stuff like NO Explode and other pre-workout and completely safe weight lifting supplements simply because they believe the level of B-vitamins to be too high. Moronic really.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

I must say Im surprised Cilic got a silent ban. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind we wouldn't hear about a top player testing positive if it ever happened. But Cilic is not an elite player and hardly a household name. Anyways as Front said, the silent ban in sports is not some old wives tale after all.

Cilic is a top player.

Top player means top 5 and specifically Djokovic, Rafa, Murray and Fed. Any of those 4 tested positive we would never hear about it from the ATP because that'd damn near kill tennis. And what apparently has happened with Cilic just confirms this. Cilic is a good player but not a household name

Why would it kill tennis? Many top baseball players have faced suspensions or denied HOF entrance yet the sport continues to thrive. The same could be said for track and field. I believe that it is very dangerous to assume or imply that every top player must be using some form of enhancement. If they are guilty, let them pay the price. No one person or persons controls an entire sport.

If one or multiple legends of the game were found to be PED users that would have a huge impact on tennis for the foreseeable future. Sure, the fanatics will probably watch just like before but the casual viewers who only tune in for the grand slams or the heavyweight matches would find something else to do with their Sundays.

Baseball might be thriving now (not sure if that's true or not) but it suffered after the strike and it suffered after the first huge round of PED use, etc. Nowhere did I say or even imply that everyone is using. Probably not even 5% of pro players are using.

---

can somebody provide the list of substances? Not all are created equal and some of those "substances" are actually a joke that are ban in the first place. so; where is the list of these elixirs?

Excellent point. It is rare these days that we actually find out what supplement was used or what triggered the "failed" test (high or synthetic testosterone or something else). If the public could get this information we'd have a better idea of whether or not certain excuses from the athletes are legit.

 

[Front242]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

Don't forget contaminated steaks! ROFL! Contador is hilarious.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Tour de France is still the greatest show on earth.


It is the single most viewed and watched athletic event on the planet.

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: World No. 15 Cilic Quietly Serving Doping Ban

List of banned substances:

http://www.usada.org/prohibited-list/athlete-guide

---

The ITF is officially a joke. It cannot recommend any supplements? LOL

http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/education/supplements/overview.aspx

 

[Iona16]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

In 10 years Troicki's blood was only tested 5 times. Just once every 2 years. That is absolutely shocking. I do wonder how much blood they take for testing. I know you're advised not to donate blood when unwell but they take 1 pint when you donate. Surely they take very little for blood testing.

BTW I don't think the Wimbledon Junior champion will win many friends with this article.

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-07-27/13149.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[britbox]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

ITF didn't announce it. Croatian Media broke the story.

 

[britbox]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Exactly. Tennis gets mentioned, ever so vaguely in these scandals, and I'm not saying there aren't bad eggs, but it's one thing to worry about the state of the sport, in general, in terms of doping, and it's another to cast aspersions on particular players without proof...which people do. It's not like they're coming out, player after player as clearly doping, like they are in cycling and baseball. And I don't think that's just ITF cover-up. I'm pretty sure the cycling governing body would have preferred if it hadn't come off so badly.

Moxie, there isn't anything vague about it. Tennis was explicity mentioned in the Fuentes trial, but he was instructed to talk about cyclists alone and the judge decreed that the evidence for non-cycling sports be destroyed, despite WADA requesting it. Frankly, a shameful episode.

Tennis players have been said to be on the list of clients by the Miami clinic whistleblower. What's vague about the involvement of tennis? The sport has been named specifically. Again.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

In 10 years Troicki's blood was only tested 5 times. Just once every 2 years. That is absolutely shocking. I do wonder how much blood they take for testing. I know you're advised not to donate blood when unwell but they take 1 pint when you donate. Surely they take very little for blood testing.

BTW I don't think the Wimbledon Junior champion will win many friends with this article.

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-07-27/13149.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Oh, boy...that kid's going to learn a few things about giving interviews and talking out of his patootie. Rookie error. :s Thanks for sharing, Iona. (I listened to the interview. The headline in Italian was that the kid wanted to be a competitive skier. The opinions about doping come at the end. Amusingly, and also not very politically, he says he likes tennis a bit less than skiing. LOL!)

 

[Iona16]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

In 10 years Troicki's blood was only tested 5 times. Just once every 2 years. That is absolutely shocking. I do wonder how much blood they take for testing. I know you're advised not to donate blood when unwell but they take 1 pint when you donate. Surely they take very little for blood testing.

BTW I don't think the Wimbledon Junior champion will win many friends with this article.

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-07-27/13149.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Oh, boy...that kid's going to learn a few things about giving interviews and talking out of his patootie. Rookie error. :s Thanks for sharing, Iona. (I listened to the interview. The headline in Italian was that the kid wanted to be a competitive skier. The opinions about doping come at the end. Amusingly, and also not very politically, he says he likes tennis a bit less than skiing. LOL!)

Well, he wouldn't be the first teenager to shoot this mouth off. I hope he'll learn.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Where's the silent ban, if "they announced it?"

People love conspiracy theories, but the truth will out eventually. Let's stick only to what we know...

Er maybe 'cos it's practically August and he was caught in April? And also because he was told to make up a fake injury to forfeit his 2nd round match at Wimbledon this year.

But that's the point, isn't it? The idea that a top player could merrily serve a ban without anyone ever knowing is pie in the sky - and unfair on everyone. Cilic's suspension was announced, possibly after due process had happened.

If any of the top 4 were to serve a "silent ban", then the others in the top 4 would know about it sooner than internet chatrooms - and it wouldn't be very silent any more...

They'd probably be paid to keep quiet mafia style. Case in point, the guy involved in the Biogenesis case has already received a death threat.

According to him. And while he says he turned down $125,000, he admits to taking $5K. People are taking him seriously enough to investigate, and to interview him, but a gimlet eye might suspect him of a bit of self-aggrandizement, and maybe being a bit of a drama queen.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

If Marin Cilic got 3 months for failing one, then why should Troicki get 18 months for refusing one? I don't understand this system of punishment. Shouldn't it be at least equal, if you're calling a refusal an admission of guilt?

It is not a fact that Marin Cilic got 3 month's ban only. There is
no official announcement yet from ITF about Marin Cilic. It is my
belief that the tribunal is still considering the case and needs to
decide on the punishment and then make it public. As an aside,
it is also not a fact that Cilic's ban is being kept silently intentionally.
I assume ITF would soon make an official announcement with the
details.

The players involved often decide (especially if they know
they are guilty) not to participate in tournaments for a while
until the verdict is out (as any prize money and points that
they gain in the mean time would only go down the drain).
For example, Wayne Odesnik did it before.

Umag is Cilic's home tournament. He was the titlist there
in 2012 and finalist in 2011. Given that suddenly he is not
playing in Umag, the Croatian media go to the bottom of
it and released the news.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

sample size is too small. so small so as to be totally negligent.

no way in hell can you draw any reliable conclusions from it.


there is a whole history of doping in sports like cycling going back 20 years and more.


no such history exists in our sport. top players have no need for it.

take roger in his prime: no amount of doping would have allowed you beat him on grass or on hard courts. the man has no less than 9 slams on hard courts alone. he has every shot in the book and his movement was beyond ridiculous.

now nole has taken the movement to another level. his movement completely engulfs the court. there is no place to hit. that is not doping. that was a gift from the gods and he just perfected it.

nobody in the sport has ever hit a forehand like nadal. their arm would fall off for one thing. and then how on earth can you average 3200 rpm`s on the topspin forehand?

I defy you to call that a miracle of doping. that is sheer god given ability. and his will has been second to none until he decided to get lazy like he did after the end of 2010. in his prime he was as fast as the fastest cornerbacks in the NFL. his movement was just sick.

doping really cant help you in tennis. it is a sport that requires an immense amount of natural athletic ability. and then you have to have the greatest strokes on the planet to be able to dominate. as if that was not enough, you then need monster testicular fortitude and relentless will to be able to win slams. drugs cant buy you that.

in his prime and at the height of his powers, nadal basically never missed in the clutch off either wing. that is what murray and gasquet said and I think they know more than we do.

murray managed to stand on the shoulders of players like roger, nadal, and nole and improve his standing in the sport. he watched them and learned from them. he too was gifted. he just needed to put it all together.



the problem as I see it is this: some people just cant get over how fit these players are. see that is why i put together that thread on the direction of the sport.

one of the biggest trends in the sport is ultra supreme fitness. that is why you have 9-10 players over 30 this year that have won titles.

tommy haas is 35 and managing to win titles. ferru is 32 and ranked in the top 5.

bryan brothers will be 40 one of these days and they just cant be stopped anywhere and on any bloody surface.


we might as well go after these players first before anybody else.


people simply fail to realize that the one of the greatest trends in the sport is ultra supreme fitness and that also means dramatic changes in nutrition.

that is not doping. that is the sport being taken to its highest level ever. tennis players are having to adapt to the new realities and the new imperatives.



either that or they cant pay their mortgage.



handful of fools that might try something gain nothing from it. they are not winning anymore or less as a result of it. in fact they are winning less since they might have thought they could improve their game by doping.

the game has to be a gift from the gods. and then you work all your life to do something with it.

doping nets you nothing in tennis.

---

excellent thread.

keep them coming.

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I think that's all it needs - transparency. Having an independent body doing the testing rather than the ITF (who are involved in promoting the sport). Putting more money into testing (particularly blood testing) and finally storing random samples for future testing years down the line.

I think that would solve the problem as in giving the fans peace of mind. That won't eradicate doping (nothing ever will) but it's about as good as it will get.

Britbox, hopefully you can shed some light on the testing procedure. I was under the impression that 3 different agencies may test a player in/out-competition. Besides the ITF, WADA also test and local anti-doping tennis agencies for the countries where tournaments are held. Do you know if they all publish their findings?

In theory they could but I think the arrangement is that ITF conduct the testing on the code laid out by WADA. There is I believe, some negotiation between the French local agencies and the ITF regarding testing in France - the French want to be directly involved with the testing at Roland Garros in 2014.

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

sample size is too small. so small so as to be totally negligent.

no way in hell can you draw any reliable conclusions from it.


there is a whole history of doping in sports like cycling going back 20 years and more.


no such history exists in our sport. top players have no need for it.

take roger in his prime: no amount of doping would have allowed you beat him on grass or on hard courts. the man has no less than 9 slams on hard courts alone. he has every shot in the book and his movement was beyond ridiculous.

now nole has taken the movement to another level. his movement completely engulfs the court. there is no place to hit. that is not doping. that was a gift from the gods and he just perfected it.

nobody in the sport has ever hit a forehand like nadal. their arm would fall off for one thing. and then how on earth can you average 3200 rpm`s on the topspin forehand?

I defy you to call that a miracle of doping. that is sheer god given ability. and his will has been second to none until he decided to get lazy like he did after the end of 2010. in his prime he was as fast as the fastest cornerbacks in the NFL. his movement was just sick.

doping really cant help you in tennis. it is a sport that requires an immense amount of natural athletic ability. and then you have to have the greatest strokes on the planet to be able to dominate. as if that was not enough, you then need monster testicular fortitude and relentless will to be able to win slams. drugs cant buy you that.

in his prime and at the height of his powers, nadal basically never missed in the clutch off either wing. that is what murray and gasquet said and I think they know more than we do.

murray managed to stand on the shoulders of players like roger, nadal, and nole and improve his standing in the sport. he watched them and learned from them. he too was gifted. he just needed to put it all together.



the problem as I see it is this: some people just cant get over how fit these players are. see that is why i put together that thread on the direction of the sport.

one of the biggest trends in the sport is ultra supreme fitness. that is why you have 9-10 players over 30 this year that have won titles.

tommy haas is 35 and managing to win titles. ferru is 32 and ranked in the top 5.

bryan brothers will be 40 one of these days and they just cant be stopped anywhere and on any bloody surface.


we might as well go after these players first before anybody else.


people simply fail to realize that the one of the greatest trends in the sport is ultra supreme fitness and that also means dramatic changes in nutrition.

that is not doping. that is the sport being taken to its highest level ever. tennis players are having to adapt to the new realities and the new imperatives.



either that or they cant pay their mortgage.



handful of fools that might try something gain nothing from it. they are not winning anymore or less as a result of it. in fact they are winning less since they might have thought they could improve their game by doping.

the game has to be a gift from the gods. and then you work all your life to do something with it.

doping nets you nothing in tennis.

---

excellent thread.

keep them coming.

---

CD... doping would never make anyone a great tennis player on it's own. I think the point is more to do with the edge it gives one amongst comparative equals.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Doping is a part of this sport and we've had two cases already exposed this week alone. If it did them no good why would they choose to do it. It gets you supreme stamina which when running around like a maniac in often crazy heat is a huge asset. Stamina won't turn a nobody into somebody but if they already possess a high quality game it makes a huge difference. If they happen to be near the top it makes the difference between losing to the other top players and beating them if you manage to outlast them physically. You can choose to ignore it but doping definitely makes a big difference in tennis. Why else are they finally trying to do something about it.