Barcelona Open 2017, Barcelona, Spain, ATP 500

[Carol]

I didn't know that Ramos was hurt in the third set, that probably helped Muzz to win

 

[Moxie]

I understand the conditions there,eg,high altitude does not help any player for RG,in saying that, seeing Madrid is the capital of Spain,Rafa is their favorite Spanish tennis player he might get lynched if he skipped it also I hated when they had the 'blue clay' I was brought up on the proper red clay surface.

Margaret, I think you're wrong about Rafa's ability to skip Madrid. Barcelona is the closest he has to a "home tournament," which is why he's played that 500 so often. Madrid was conceived as a glitzy affair by Ian Tiriac, who has forced Rafa to play it, even at times when he'd have preferred the rest. (It used to be Hamburg, which he could skip or play without pressure.) Rafa has done right by his home country in playing Barcelona. I promise you that Spaniards will understand if he skips Madrid, especially if he wins RG.

 

[DarthFed]

While I know we don't want to do this to death at this moment, I'm very pleased I was able to bait you, and give you a smile.

If you leave aside blinkered fandom for a moment and look at your basic position: that Rafa has long-doped, to get a leg-up, and that Roger had no incentive, at 35, to start doping. I made a detailed argument (in a past thread) why it made no sense that a 16-18 year old Nadal would start doping when he was already beating his contemporaries and his elders all the way along. You may not have said you agreed, but a lot of people here found it a compelling argument. He was a prodigy, with much early success, which Roger never really was, though the promise was always there. A prodigy has no reason to think that success won't continue without aid. A 35-year-old who is used to winning big prizes and would like to continue to do so, does, especially after 4 1/2 years without a Major. That's a logical parallel. Another one, to the point you make about stupidity would be: if Nadal didn't dope early because he didn't need to, why would he do it later, when he'd been exposed to endless scrutiny? THAT would be stupid. Not stupid would be doing it when you are the all-but-anointed GOAT, since you and others have said that there is no price to pay.

As I've said before, I'm not campaigning for the notion that has Roger doped. I'm trying to hold the feet to the fire of you and like-minded Roger fans who still hold in your hearts that Rafa beat up so much on Roger by cheating. Look at your arguments and don't hold a double-standard.

This is more reasonable but also again we are just going in circles here. A couple things:

1. EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat no matter what. And obviously the risk, aside from their health which they probably aren't concerned about, is getting caught and being considered a disgraced nobody. It is a huge risk especially as a player builds a huge legacy. But Roger, Rafa, Nole, the world #1,000, always will have an incentive to cheat just to become better than they can without PED's. All athletes no matter how great wish they were just a little greater. That's human nature.

2. Roger doing it would be stupid because if he got caught he goes from GOAT in most people's minds, and ATG in the rest, to a disgraced nobody overnight. of course that's the big risk to doing PED's for him at this point.

As for Rafa he went from barely top 50 at the start of 2005 to being by far the 2nd best player in the world and already pretty much unbeatable on clay in the course of a few months. This was age 18-19 so you do expect there can be a big rise in play but this was extremely unusual. That doesn't mean he was cheating. What's more damning to me is the insane transformation in his body from AO 2005 to Miami 2005, just a few months and he went from skinny little boy to a guy who looked like he could be an NFL linebacker. His game always to a large degree has been about being stronger, faster, and able to last longer than everyone else. He's got incredible genetics maybe, because nobody else can come close to doing that. Their arms would fall off or they'd be dead tired after a couple sets.

 

[Carol]

This is more reasonable but also again we are just going in circles here. A couple things:

1. EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat no matter what. And obviously the risk, aside from their health which they probably aren't concerned about, is getting caught and being considered a disgraced nobody. It is a huge risk especially as a player builds a huge legacy. But Roger, Rafa, Nole, the world #1,000, always will have an incentive to cheat just to become better than they can without PED's. All athletes no matter how great wish they were just a little greater. That's human nature.

2. Roger doing it would be stupid because if he got caught he goes from GOAT in most people's minds, and ATG in the rest, to a disgraced nobody overnight. of course that's the big risk to doing PED's for him at this point.

As for Rafa he went from barely top 50 at the start of 2005 to being by far the 2nd best player in the world and already pretty much unbeatable on clay in the course of a few months. This was age 18-19 so you do expect there can be a big rise in play but this was extremely unusual. That doesn't mean he was cheating. What's more damning to me is the insane transformation in his body from AO 2005 to Miami 2005, just a few months and he went from skinny little boy to a guy who looked like he could be an NFL linebacker. His game always to a large degree has been about being stronger, faster, and able to last longer than everyone else. He's got incredible genetics maybe, because nobody else can come close to doing that. Their arms would fall off or they'd be dead tired after a couple sets.

To do weights does't hurt and lees under a good supervision, PED's is a different story and usually they look skinny

 

[DarthFed]

^ Depends on the type of PED's. Back in the early 2000's anabolic steroids were more popular.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Margaret, I think you're wrong about Rafa's ability to skip Madrid. Barcelona is the closest he has to a "home tournament," which is why he's played that 500 so often. Madrid was conceived as a glitzy affair by Ian Tiriac, who has forced Rafa to play it, even at times when he'd have preferred the rest. (It used to be Hamburg, which he could skip or play without pressure.) Rafa has done right by his home country in playing Barcelona. I promise you that Spaniards will understand if he skips Madrid, especially if he wins RG.

I personally do not think Rafa will skip Madrid,barring injury of course,I know Barcelona is more of a home tournament and I cannot stand Tiriac who built that complex in honor of himself,less said about him the better.If he does decide to skip Madrid it would not worry me in the slightest.

 

[Carol]

^ Depends on the type of PED's. Back in the early 2000's anabolic steroids were more popular.

Have you seen Nadal playing at that time live from the stands and close? he looked half than he looked in the pictures and through the TV, I mean you can tell that he was doing weights like others players were doing but playing sleeveless he showed the muscles more than the others. AND I have to add that he is coming from a family that all men have a natural strong body like his father and uncles. If you would met my brother you could see how strong he looks and believe me, he doesn't take not even an aspirin but he also likes to do exercises, weighs, playing tennis and soccer,, he is a strong guy without to need to take any kind of s%^t

 

[Moxie]

This is more reasonable but also again we are just going in circles here. A couple things:

1. EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat no matter what. And obviously the risk, aside from their health which they probably aren't concerned about, is getting caught and being considered a disgraced nobody. It is a huge risk especially as a player builds a huge legacy. But Roger, Rafa, Nole, the world #1,000, always will have an incentive to cheat just to become better than they can without PED's. All athletes no matter how great wish they were just a little greater. That's human nature.

2. Roger doing it would be stupid because if he got caught he goes from GOAT in most people's minds, and ATG in the rest, to a disgraced nobody overnight. of course that's the big risk to doing PED's for him at this point.

As for Rafa he went from barely top 50 at the start of 2005 to being by far the 2nd best player in the world and already pretty much unbeatable on clay in the course of a few months. This was age 18-19 so you do expect there can be a big rise in play but this was extremely unusual. That doesn't mean he was cheating. What's more damning to me is the insane transformation in his body from AO 2005 to Miami 2005, just a few months and he went from skinny little boy to a guy who looked like he could be an NFL linebacker. His game always to a large degree has been about being stronger, faster, and able to last longer than everyone else. He's got incredible genetics maybe, because nobody else can come close to doing that. Their arms would fall off or they'd be dead tired after a couple sets.

1. Yes, but a player who is having enormous success early has less incentive. You never acknowledge this about Rafa.
2. It's the same risk for Rafa, all along his career, and he's had more scrutiny. He'd won a Major at barely 19.
3. You've tried this argument before about Rafa's rise and even JLLB has shot you down on your numbers. You keep forgetting how high Nadal had gotten the year before, and then had an injury, that took him back to 50. Also your insistence that there was an "insane" transformation of his body in that time. You can't judge that from photos or videos. A boy will fill out. And you belligerently ignore that he was beating former world #1s at 16, beat Roger at 17 (before this incredible transformation that you insist upon.) What you discount is that he was clearly a prodigy. The last great teenager that we've had in men's tennis. He won an under-10 all Balearic Islands when he was 8 years old. He beat Pat Cash in an exhibition when he was 14 and still an amateur. I'm still waiting for you to explain to me when you think he needed to dope to be better than everyone else in front of him. He didn't really run into a solid competitor until Djokovic in 2011. Which is many years after you would say he doped. It doesn't make sense that he would have felt compelled before.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I didn't know that Ramos was hurt in the third set, that probably helped Muzz to win

Yes.Ramos had a very extended injury time out.. Murray ran off 3 straight games but Ramos was able to level the match..it was decent match..

 

[Carol]

I personally do not think Rafa will skip Madrid,barring injury of course,I know Barcelona is more of a home tournament and I cannot stand Tiriac who built that complex in honor of himself,less said about him the better.If he does decide to skip Madrid it would not worry me in the slightest.

Barcelona is "his home" even that he is a R. Madrid huge fan and the catalans don't like it too much

 

[Carol]

I didn't know that Ramos was hurt in the third set, that probably helped Muzz to win

Yes.Ramos had a very extended injury time out.. Murray ran off 3 straight games but Ramos was able to level the match..it was decent match..

I was watching the match replay, now I'm going to watch Rafa's match. Can someone ask Blake that he doesn't need to talk so much?:s

 

[Carol]

I'm watching the Rafa's match replay, can someone ask Blake that he doesn't need to talk so much?

 

[DarthFed]

Moxie he had only barely reached top 50, back then that wasn't out of the norm for a teenager. It definitely is not normal now but back then...

Anyways we will agree to disagree on certain things, it's all good.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie he had only barely reached top 50, back then that wasn't out of the norm for a teenager. It definitely is not normal now but back then...

Anyways we will agree to disagree on certain things, it's all good.

He'd reached 34 at 17. Call it normal if you like, but you've completely evaded my other points...and I only addressed them as your bullet points. Chicken? No response? It's rather limp to "agree to disagree" with so many points on the table, and all of them yours. I'll be awaiting a more meaningful response. B-)

 

[Carol]

Very good played by the young Corean guy but he had to give too much of him in the first set and then in the second set he was "ready to go....out"

 

[DarthFed]

He'd reached 34 at 17. Call it normal if you like, but you've completely evaded my other points...and I only addressed them as your bullet points. Chicken? No response? It's rather limp to "agree to disagree" with so many points on the table, and all of them yours. I'll be awaiting a more meaningful response. B-)

There is a world of difference between being barely in the top 50 and being a pretty dominant #2. This was the fastest jump up the ladder we've ever seen, at least since I've been watching (early 90's) and that is more unusual than a 17-18 year old being in the top 50 in the early 2000's.

Many "great" careers have been built by guys who cheated from the get go. Again it's different sports but Lance Armstrong, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, and a whole bunch of others. What you're saying about Rafa having no incentive (you're just fundamentally wrong with that opinion) could be applied to a lot of guys who have been exposed as cheaters. I can only type this to you on a screen: EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat. These are fiercely competitive people who play a sport all their lives and suddenly there are millions on the line as well as fame and glory. Even the #1 player in a sport has incentive to take PED's because in a great athlete's mind they could always stand to be even greater. Roger, Rafa, Nole, Andy, and some guy ranked #1,000, doesn't matter, they all have incentive and always will.

 

[Moxie]

There is a world of difference between being barely in the top 50 and being a pretty dominant #2. This was the fastest jump up the ladder we've ever seen, at least since I've been watching (early 90's) and that is more unusual than a 17-18 year old being in the top 50 in the early 2000's.

Many "great" careers have been built by guys who cheated from the get go. Again it's different sports but Lance Armstrong, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, and a whole bunch of others. What you're saying about Rafa having no incentive (you're just fundamentally wrong with that opinion) could be applied to a lot of guys who have been exposed as cheaters. I can only type this to you on a screen: EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat. These are fiercely competitive people who play a sport all their lives and suddenly there are millions on the line as well as fame and glory. Even the #1 player in a sport has incentive to take PED's because in a great athlete's mind they could always stand to be even greater. Roger, Rafa, Nole, Andy, and some guy ranked #1,000, doesn't matter, they all have incentive and always will.

Fine. Then my only point to you, as it ever was: hold the same standards for both. And apparently you might, if you read your own posts: (quoted from your above): "EVERY athlete has an incentive to cheat." While you said earlier: "Also, if he decided to just dope this year when he's already considered to be the GOAT by most people that'd be pretty stupid." Well, then, however stupid you might say it is, Roger had an incentive to cheat, if he wanted more Major titles. As I've said before, I'm not claiming he did, but just consider how hypocritical it sounds, from the outside. You're going with your intuition on both of them, and your intuition is clouded by bias.

As to Rafa, you petulantly keep ignoring the more steady trajectory that his career was on, even though others besides me have tried to explain it to you. Without an injury in 2004, he would likely have made a steadier rise in the rankings. But he was long-poised to be exactly that clay player to come to full-flower in 2005. It is a feature of your fan-blindedness that you believe fully that Roger is so talented that he dominated tennis for so long on his beautiful game, but that it can't be true that another super-talented player couldn't have come up at the shortly behind. That a "Roger Federer" is simply a gift from the gods, and that a "Rafael Nadal" must somehow be manufactured by PEDs. Regardless of our being on opposite sides of the fan-chasm, you have to admit that that's not an even-handed notion. What both have accomplished is down to, more than anything else, extraordinary amounts of talent, dedication to the sport, natural ability and will to achieve. In the skills and IQ specific to tennis, I don't think that PEDs are enough to make up the difference at the very top. For that reason, I'm not interested in your comparisons to ball-bashers in baseball, or the guy who can cheat via mere endurance in the Tour de France.

 

[isabelle]

Sir Andy seems to play a little bit better than in MC, hope he can reach final and (why not ? ) win...keep my fingers crossed

 

[the AntiPusher]

I didn't know that Ramos was hurt in the third set, that probably helped Muzz to win

Yes.Ramos had a very extended injury time out.. Murray ran off 3 straight games but Ramos was able to level the match..it was decent match..

I was watching the match replay, now I'm going to watch Rafa's match. Can someone ask Blake that he doesn't need to talk so much?:s

James Blake was the one guy who gave young Rafa fits and he could be very competitive vs Roger..Leif S is the commentator..he is doing a great job feeding questions to James..James is just responding ..James isn't bias against his former opponents like Rafa or Roger. I find his analysis very refreshing..Give the guy a chance.. talking too much would be like Patrick McEnroe or even John at times..although I am a big John fan( btw..they lost their dear father , John McEnroe Sr earlier this year..just the perfect role model for a tennis parent). RIP Big Mac Sr

 

[isabelle]

hope Sir Andy can win the tourney, he needs to improve his level