2018 US Open Final: S. Williams vs. N. Osaka

[GameSetAndMath]

no. Actually in some of those no penalties were given. As I've said, Serena was in the wrong. She's entitled and frankly she's irritated me in the past. What I take issue with is the application of the rules against her, when others have been given a pass. Umpires need to be consistent or they have no credibility for me. Just the other day, Rafa was getting coached. It was obvious and one of the commentators on my stream talked about it live. Did he get punished? No. Yet Serena does in a final. The fact that she has suffered egregious injustices in the past, the Capriati match and the Henin match spring to mind gives context to how she reacted.

It has already been said by someone else. But, let me say it too. If I am driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone and if the cop gives me a ticket, I cannot say to the cop that yesterday my friend drove at 120 in the same road and did not get any ticket and so I should not get one either.
Just because somebody got lucky and went undetected does not mean the cop is doing wrong thing when they catch me.

The coaching from the box scenario is difficult for the umpire to always detect. The umpire's primary focus and attention is what is going on in the court. You can accuse the umpire of double standard only if you know that the umpire saw for sure and yet choose to not call it.

Having said that my position on these are two things.

1. Make signaling from the box official, not because it is right, but it is difficult to enforce. You cannot ban a person from touching his head and that could be a signal with a specific meaning.

2. As I already stated, I think the umpire should have reminded Serena once that if she argues any more she would be given game penalty before actually doing so (in view of the seriousness of the penalty and in view of the importance of the final match).

 

[10isfan]

How do you "solve the problem" re. on-court coaching? You can't.
Therefore Coaching should be allowed to some degree, maybe following each set .

Have the coach sit where the player can’t see him or her. Simple. On court coaching would be the worst solution. Why? Because problem solving is at the core of tennis. Coaching would take away a “weapon” of a smart player, which would help dumb ball bashers.

 

[Federberg]

It has already been said by someone else. But, let me say it too. If I am driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone and if the cop gives me a ticket, I cannot say to the cop that yesterday my friend drove at 120 in the same road and did not get any ticket and so I should not get one either.
Just because somebody got lucky and went undetected does not mean the cop is doing wrong thing when they catch me.

The coaching from the box scenario is difficult for the umpire to always detect. The umpire's primary focus and attention is what is going on in the court. You can accuse the umpire of double standard only if you know that the umpire saw for sure and yet choose to not call it.

Having said that my position on these are two things.

1. Make signaling from the box official, not because it is right, but it is difficult to enforce. You cannot ban a person from touching his head and that could be a signal with a specific meaning.

2. As I already stated, I think the umpire should have reminded Serena once that if she argues any more she would be given game penalty before actually doing so (in view of the seriousness of the penalty and in view of the importance of the final match).

I actually don't disagree with a word you've said. Here's the problem. That's not really what's happening here. Using your scenario, you have a driver who is known to drive over the speed limit all the time, but the cops just ignore it. They don't ignore Serena when she's breaking the speed limit though. I never said she wasn't speeding. My issue is with the cops

 

[10isfan]

Mortaglou should have said he was not coaching; he was absent mindedly motioning. Is it coaching if the player doesn’t see him? That’s the only problem I have with the chain of events. Serena shouldn’t have been used a violation for coaching.

I think only female umps should be in the chair for major SF and F matches so nobody can claim sexism. I’m tired of race and gender being brought up at every opportunity.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I actually don't disagree with a word you've said. Here's the problem. That's not really what's happening here. Using your scenario, you have a driver who is known to drive over the speed limit all the time, but the cops just ignore it. They don't ignore Serena when she's breaking the speed limit though. I never said she wasn't speeding. My issue is with the cops

Ignoring assumes, the cop saw it and yet let it go. It is also possible that nobody was patrolling when one speeds. In that case, it is not ignoring. It is just the case of the person getting lucky.

To say that an umpire ignores some other coaching from the box presumes, the umpire is aware of it and deliberately ignores it.

 

[Federberg]

Ignoring assumes, the cop saw it and yet let it go. It is also possible that nobody was patrolling when one speeds. In that case, it is not ignoring. It is just the case of the person getting lucky.

To say that an umpire ignores some other coaching from the box presumes, the umpire is aware of it and deliberately ignores it.

That's true of course. I would argue that's actually the case. I watched that Nadal - Del Potro match. And as the match was going on, you can look in the thread. I was talking about what the commentators were saying. We had observed that Rafa had changed his return position, and one of the commentators said that Rafa's box had signalled him to make the change. It's not as if Rafa hasn't done this before. I don't know any sport where the arbiters aren't aware of the history of certain players and make adjustments accordingly. We have to be extremely credulous to believe that umpires don't see these bad actions occurring in real time. Yet Serena who is generally not known to be a player that egregiously exploits this rule gets caught in a final. A final! Same thing with the foot fault against Clijsters. There are players who get done on that foot fault ruling. Serena was never one of those. But again, in a critical match she gets nailed. We might put this down to the extra vigilance of officials in finals. But you have to believe that somehow they are amazingly competent when she's playing but lose their perspicacity when she's not. Look I'm not even trying to change minds here. But the defence of the umpire on the basis that he followed the letter of the law is contextless and utterly naive in my view. I'm not sure I can be convinced otherwise. Even if I found Serena's attempts to represent herself as standing up for women cringeworthy. It's not about her. To me the inconsistency rises to a point where I have to question the underlying motivations. As Sherlock Holmes says "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

 

[Fiero425]

Mortaglou should have said he was not coaching; he was absent mindedly motioning. Is it coaching if the player doesn’t see him? That’s the only problem I have with the chain of events. Serena shouldn’t have been used a violation for coaching.

I think only female umps should be in the chair for major SF and F matches so nobody can claim sexism. I’m tired of race and gender being brought up at every opportunity.

Funny, I wondered why a woman was umpiring the men's final? She had a lot to deal with; esp. DP's rabid fans from Argentina! :whistle:

 

[Fiero425]

So he let Osaka win? Lol wtf?

Hilarious! Funny there have been no issues with Stephens, Keys, or Osaka before, but because it's a Wms sister, it has to be more to it! :whistle:

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I am so happy that Osaka won her 1st slam title, she's a very talented and lovely girl. But I also wish Serena got that 24th slam so that we wouldn't have a homophobic woman sitting at the top by herself. Sad for women's tennis.

 

[Ricardo]

It has already been said by someone else. But, let me say it too. If I am driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone and if the cop gives me a ticket, I cannot say to the cop that yesterday my friend drove at 120 in the same road and did not get any ticket and so I should not get one either.
Just because somebody got lucky and went undetected does not mean the cop is doing wrong thing when they catch me.

The coaching from the box scenario is difficult for the umpire to always detect. The umpire's primary focus and attention is what is going on in the court. You can accuse the umpire of double standard only if you know that the umpire saw for sure and yet choose to not call it.

Having said that my position on these are two things.

1. Make signaling from the box official, not because it is right, but it is difficult to enforce. You cannot ban a person from touching his head and that could be a signal with a specific meaning.

2. As I already stated, I think the umpire should have reminded Serena once that if she argues any more she would be given game penalty before actually doing so (in view of the seriousness of the penalty and in view of the importance of the final match).

All these idiots saying, hey Ramos shouldn’t apply the rules to Williams because someone else got away with it before....let’s get this straight

Mac, Fognini and Davy have all been dealt with more harshly, but they didn’t whinge like she did after. None of them went as far as threatening linesperson or flat out calling umpire ‘thief’.

As far as coaching, her coach was correctly called out so nobody can argue that. And she shouldn’t have been reminded further because she was not just arguing, she was flat out abusing the umpire and that’s just not allowed.

 

[Ricardo]

I am so happy that Osaka won her 1st slam title, she's a very talented and lovely girl. But I also wish Serena got that 24th slam so that we wouldn't have a homophobic woman sitting at the top by herself. Sad for women's tennis.

Got problem with homophobic women?

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Got problem with homophobic women?

I do.

 

[Moxie]

I am so happy that Osaka won her 1st slam title, she's a very talented and lovely girl. But I also wish Serena got that 24th slam so that we wouldn't have a homophobic woman sitting at the top by herself. Sad for women's tennis.

What does that mean?

 

[Moxie]

All these idiots saying, hey Ramos shouldn’t apply the rules to Williams because someone else got away with it before....let’s get this straight

Mac, Fognini and Davy have all been dealt with more harshly, but they didn’t whinge like she did after. None of them went as far as threatening linesperson or flat out calling umpire ‘thief’.

As far as coaching, her coach was correctly called out so nobody can argue that. And she shouldn’t have been reminded further because she was not just arguing, she was flat out abusing the umpire and that’s just not allowed.

I don't see how you think they've been dealt with more harshly. Firstly, McEnroe and Fognini are serial problem children, as is Kyrgios, for another one. Actually, McEnroe was actually defaulted for threatening a lines person, so you're wrong there. And if you think he hasn't called a lines person or chair umpire much worse than "thief," you are kidding yourself. And I've heard Fognini say worse, but it happens that I understand Italian. I'm not sure why Davydenko is this mix other than cheating. The thing about Serena is that she is NOT a serial problem child. She generally keeps her cool in matches. To compare her with guys that throw a wobbly all the time is neither fair nor consistent. Her issue tends more towards righteous indignation, imo.

 

[Moxie]

What does that mean?

EDIT: Sorry, I see you mean Margaret Court.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

That's true of course. I would argue that's actually the case. I watched that Nadal - Del Potro match. And as the match was going on, you can look in the thread. I was talking about what the commentators were saying. We had observed that Rafa had changed his return position, and one of the commentators said that Rafa's box had signalled him to make the change. It's not as if Rafa hasn't done this before. I don't know any sport where the arbiters aren't aware of the history of certain players and make adjustments accordingly. We have to be extremely credulous to believe that umpires don't see these bad actions occurring in real time. Yet Serena who is generally not known to be a player that egregiously exploits this rule gets caught in a final. A final! Same thing with the foot fault against Clijsters. There are players who get done on that foot fault ruling. Serena was never one of those. But again, in a critical match she gets nailed. We might put this down to the extra vigilance of officials in finals. But you have to believe that somehow they are amazingly competent when she's playing but lose their perspicacity when she's not. Look I'm not even trying to change minds here. But the defence of the umpire on the basis that he followed the letter of the law is contextless and utterly naive in my view. I'm not sure I can be convinced otherwise. Even if I found Serena's attempts to represent herself as standing up for women cringeworthy. It's not about her. To me the inconsistency rises to a point where I have to question the underlying motivations. As Sherlock Holmes says "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

Come on, you can differentiate between a commentator and an umpire right. To say that the umpire ignored, you should argue that the umpire knew it and not merely that a commentator said it (not to mention umpires don't listen to commentary).

 

[Federberg]

Come on, you can differentiate between a commentator and an umpire right. To say that the umpire ignored, you should argue that the umpire knew it and not merely that a commentator said it (not to mention umpires don't listen to commentary).

That’s the point mate. That’s exactly what I’m saying. He must have seen it. They don’t exactly hide it

 

[GameSetAndMath]

ITF initially said they won't comment on the issue. But, then WTA jumped in and supported Serena. After some time, ITF jumped in and issued a statement that Carols Ramos did everything right and with professional integrity and that they stand by him.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

In response to some opinions here and in social media that Serena has been supposedly treated "unfairly", and that men "get away" with worse violations, I want to "just say" after this article, describing the aftermath of Serena's verbal abuse of Eva in 2011 final with Stosur:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/t...lting-umpire-during-US-Open-tennis-final.html

Remember back then Serena told Eva that "she is ugly inside". Serena never apologised to Eva. In fact, at the presser, Serena said:
"Asked whether it had been fair to victimise the umpire, she replied “I think everyone is so intense out there. I was really intense, and everyone just wants to do great. I know I did.”

Now, that was just 2 years after the famous 2009 incident in Kim's match, when Serena wanted to "shove the f[...] ball in your [lineswoman] throat", and has just served a 2 year probation for that appalling abuse. Forward 2 years, to the presser at the start of 2011 USO.
When asked about said 2009 incident, Serena commented “a lot of people were telling me they thought I was super cool, that they’d never saw me so intense, so, yeah, it was awesome”.

The pattern emerges here. Serena gets away lightly with just $2000 fine, and approval of her behaviour by family, friends, fans and social media. A $2000 fine might have been acceptable had this been her first offence. (To put it in context, the leading doubles player Mike Bryan received a $10,000 fine earlier in this tournament after laying a hand on the umpire’s arm.)

The article ends with a remarkable paragraph:

As it is, the authorities clearly feel that they can sweep Williams’s latest ugly outburst under the carpet. Yet this ruling will only enhance her feelings of invulnerability, so making her more likely to reoffend.

And indeed, the reoffence did happen today. And again, friends, fans (including herein) and social media saying her actions are justified because officials are "unfair" towards her. That talk is contrary to the evidence above, that Serena has been treated leniently for her past outbursts and code violations, as opposed to Mike Bryan who received harsher punishment.

A repeat pattern of social acceptance, reaffirming petulant attitude. I'm sure if Serena plays for few more years, we will see a very similar outburst (likely in a final match she's about to lose per pattern above) because her petulance will not subside, if anything it will grow bigger: the cartoon depicting her childish tantrum is not exaggerated.

 

[Ricardo]

I do.

So what? It’s not Margaret court needs your approval. She is still top of the record ladder, and you are just here having problems.