2018 US Open Final: S. Williams vs. N. Osaka

Who ya got?

  • Serena in straights

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Serena in 3 sets

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Naomi in straights

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Naomi in 3 sets

    Votes: 3 25.0%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

mrzz

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Just dropping by given I don't follow WTA and only watched a video of the controversy after I read some headlines -- than I was sure people would be discussing it here. Read all posts, checked the video (20 minutes one with all controversy) and... umpire 100% right. 100%. Should receive a medal for keeping his composure, enforcing the rules while everyone was being emotional -- exactly as most posters here. I can feel some sympathy for Serena -- she lost it,stakes were high, that's part of life, ok. But Ramos was 100% right.

Haven't noticed anyone bring up the fact that in Cinci Federer was literally taken away ("stolen") a point, and albeit complaining, never got even closer to calling the umpire a thief -- which, given context of a professional match with a professional umpire, is blatantly obvious the worst possible thing to call the umpire. Anyway, I could waste hours of my time listing other aspects to this question. I won't.

Actually,people keep repeating that "men do worst" (as if it would be relevant), without producing a single piece of evidence of this (other similar offenses -- which probably had punishment or warnings, and were just 1 not 3 in a row, are NOT evidence of that). Men do get coaching violations... by the way, the guy got filmed doing that, admitted doing that, what in the world is the problem? If he got filmed, and got warned by the umpire because of it, I wonder how often and how flagrant he probably was...

It is unbelievable people actually are discussing this...
 
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19USC66

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So true. Absolutely ridiculous reading all the butt hurt weirdos claiming this is a racial thing when her opponent in the final is pretty damn far from white last time I checked! Some people here and on tennis.com seem to have an inferiority complex that they try and make EVERY negative comment a racial thing. Very sad.

This is not the first time Serena has pulled this. She was soundly beaten and could not take it. ESPN spent an entire fortnight with constants ads announcing her preconceived victory. Proclaiming her the QUEEN of tennis. This all was a little too much for this tennis fan. Serena broke all protocol in the match. Then ruined her opponents moment of victory. Classy Williams really classy. You got beat and made a total brat of yourself and I repeat not the first time. Once again an elitist American athlete defines the phrase "Ugly American." This comes from an American. Serena Williams shamed the entire country and made the deserved victor seem small. Nice. Really nice Serena. MS Williams you got your butt kicked. Show some dignity. Because you surely lack class. Many of us on this forum play tennis and I am one of those guys who cringes when an opponent throws his racket. Our "sticks" are expensive. I was not taught to play the way Serena acted. Every now and then we get instruction to the why and wherefore of the phrase "tennis brat." In this case with spades. I wanted her to break Court's record. Enough with Court already. However, in the future going forward I hope she never wins another match. Sadly, what does this do to Osaka's mental attitude when she plays Serena in the future? Does she let down and ponder is it worth beating her? Something to think about?
 
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Fefe26

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Serena is too emotional right now. I didn't get to see the match but from the comments doesn't sound like I missed anything. I think feel like she is still dealing with this postpartum stuff.
 

Johancf

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Couple of observations regarding sexism claims and never happening to men:
1. Roger did get fine for the 2009 incident.
2. Roger argued with the umpire, he did not insult him. He also swear during argument, not umpire (and got fined for it). I will post grandslam rule later.
3. Roger already has 2 code violations this year, one couple weeks ago.
4. Novak also dislike this umpire for receiving code violation last year (thus Ramos treats elite and non-elite players the same).
5. Everyone knows about Rafa and the umpire that were not allowed to ref his matches after giving him a code violation.
6. Murray has received code violations for swearing (although not enough).
7. Fogini got thrown out.
8. Don't bring up either McEnroe or Nick. They receive more penalties than anyone else.

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Johancf

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Grandslam rule on verbal abuse:

"For the purposes of this Rule, verbal abuse is defined as a statement about an
official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person that implies dishonesty or is
derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive."

Thus calling an umpire a criminal (my personal opinion a thief and a criminal is the same), is definitely a statement that implies umpire is dishonest.



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Srini

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I think what the umpire is guilty of more than anything is not getting control of the situation. He especially inserted himself when the outcome was pretty much inevitable that Naomi was winning this match by further fueling a situation with the loss of a game. I don’t think at any point he inserted himself and warned her to further continue this after the racquet smash would result in nasty consequences. Serena was ugly about it, and she certainly needs to learn how to move past something when it happens. Serena definitely isn’t the best at losing, and he had to know that he was playing with fire hitting her with the loss of a game when the chips were down already. The simple thing to do was say, “Ms. Williams we are done with this matter. If you have a complaint, take it up with officials after the match; otherwise, I will be forced to take further consequence.”

All the umpire can be guilty of is that he hasn’t been perfect, he got carried away a bit. But Serena was far from perfect in her behaviour too. It’s ok, the world is not perfect. Serena should stop complaining and move on. Wish she did that in the match itself, poor Naomi would have got the attention she rightly deserved.
 
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Srini

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I am not sure if we can compare reaction to McEnroe’s tantrums with Serena’s situation. Times were different. More relevant would be to wonder what would be the reaction if Roger /Rafa or Djokovic throw such tantrums now.
 

Michael;Kiwi

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I know a lot of people have spoken about this, but Ithough I’d add my two cents. First of all Osaka played amazing tennis and fully deserved to win. When she plays well she might be the best player on the planet as evidenced by here and Indian Wells.
In terms of the umpire I think there are three possible complaints people have made.
1. Hypocritical to call the Coaching since everyone does it.
2. Even if the call was valid the umpire should have used discretion given the situation.
3. A male player wouldn’t have been given the same penalty. (I don’t think it’s possible to argue race in this case)
In terms of 1 I believe that coaching is bad and should be called. I think umpires do call it, but mostly it’s too hard to see. But I do get that Osaka’s coach was coaching too. Tennis needs to solve the problem.
In terms of 2 I think the umpire should have used discretion, but he was within his rights. No one would have complained if it was a warning. The rules are the same for warnings and game penalties.
In terms of 3 I think it’s disgraceful to call the umpire sexist or racist as some have done. However, it is quite possible there is some subconscious bias. However, this situation is so rare it is impossible for me to tell. Even if you do believe this though you shouldn’t degrade the poor man’s character. At the absolute worst he made a small mistake due to a subconscious bias. Everyone has these biases.
 
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Vince Evert

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How do you "solve the problem" re. on-court coaching? You can't.
Therefore Coaching should be allowed to some degree, maybe following each set .
 

Tenfan63

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So happy for Osaka for winning her first GS. She deserved it. I wonder if the person at the USTA who decided Osaka wasn't worth backing is still employed. The USTA has supported several players for many years that do not have her talent. (Coco, McHale, King) to name a few. I am baffled that nobody at the USTA saw the talent in that girl..
 
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tossip

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Mariana Alves is the boss of the umpires she was responsible for the 2004 fiasco and she is from Portugal.Carlos Ramos ACCUSED Venus at RG16 of cheating and Venus gave him a mouthful and he is from Portugal..common denominator is Portugal and poor umpiring and bias
 

britbox

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Mariana Alves is the boss of the umpires she was responsible for the 2004 fiasco and she is from Portugal.Carlos Ramos ACCUSED Venus at RG16 of cheating and Venus gave him a mouthful and he is from Portugal..common denominator is Portugal and poor umpiring and bias

Is good umpiring a) Ignoring coaching b) Overlooking smashed racquets c) Ignoring verbal abuse ??

In your opinion where did Ramos go wrong in not implementing the rules of the sport?
 

GameSetAndMath

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The only thing they probably know is they were expecting Serena to serve and then she wasn’t and Osaka was. As a ticket holder, they were probably pissed. Was the outcome likely to change, no, but I’m sure they felt cheated out of a game. That is what taking the reins can mean a very ugly scene afterward.

You are talking non-sense. The free game awarded was a game in which Osaka would have been serving. The expectation was that Osaka would be serving (the normal course) and since the game was awarded by penalty, Serena was asked to serve again.
 

GameSetAndMath

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I don't agree that men get away with more than women. They get penalised the same way, Shapovalov hit an umpire (not deliberately) and was defaulted from the tournament. Nalby was defaulted in the final, even though he didn't mean to hurt an ump. Nick has had so many fines and code violations, he perhaps didn't have 3 in one match to have a game penalty but I am sure that they would give it to him if he did it. Every time somebody breaks a racquet they get a violation. I've seen Fabio get more than 1 verbal abuse violation, Nole too, but they usually settle down after 1 in a match. Serena was going after Ramos for 15 minutes and wouldn't shut up, after already receiving 2 code violations. What do you expect them to do? Just leave her there for hours to rant, scream and yell? How much abuse is too much for you? All violations were warranted. Too bad she spoiled it for the young Osaka a little bit.

I agree with you mostly. But, this being a final and the umpire being the calm headed person, he should have simply told her "Serena, look you already have two code violations, if you keep arguing I will give you a game penalty; so you better calm down" and then should have given her game penalty if she continued to argue. Of course, he is not required to give another soft warning, but in view of the seriousness of the game penalty and in view of the fact that this is GS finals, he should have done so.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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I've had the chance to sleep and gather my thoughts following the final and put my thoughts together. We have to split things into the tennis and then the controversy.

With regards to the tennis, I disagree with those who say that Serena was still not back to her best. Sometimes we don't see the things staring us in the face. Serena was playing fantastic tennis. She just happened to be facing a young woman who was playing extraordinary tennis. There just happened to be a match up component that Serena was unable to solve. Right from the start it was clear that Naomi had no problems with Serena's serve. Osaka was punishing Serena's second serve in a way that few other players have been able to do, perhaps Venus in her prime, Capriati, Clijsters and Sharapova have been able to make similar in roads. But of those only Venus had the ability to back up return of serve pressure with really big serving as well. And even then, Venus's serve could be erratic. In Osaka she faced a woman who's serve was also extraordinarily big. There was absolutely no zone of comfort for Serena. Perhaps even more amazing is the fact that it was clear than in baseline rallies Serena was not able to dominate her consistently. In fact Osaka's tendency to hit the ball deep tended to force Serena further and further back from the baseline which radically increased the level of discomfort she was experiencing. We have to remember that Serena has been here before, we have seen her unable to cope with the pressure in milestone grand slam finals before. Remember when she was going for 18? It took her a long time to get over that hump. And lets not talk about when she was going for the calendar slam. My take on Serena's performance was that it was more mentality than form which was her major impediment. This time Serena had two major hurdles to overcome: reaching 24, and winning her first slam after giving birth. Either one alone would have been tough to handle, she had both, in her home slam of all places. The court where some of the most egregious injustices have been perpetrated against her.

As for the controversy, I don't think anyone can dispute that each of the incidents were correct.

(1) It is clear that her coach was signalling her, which is something I absolutely loathe. I must admit I was shocked to see this, as Serena has always rejected on court coaching, so it was a surprise to see her getting signals. It is quite possible though that she didn't see it as she claims. I'm actually amazed that the umpire saw it. The fact that she was on the opposite side of the court from her box at the time makes me think that the umpire should have exercised common sense and just quietly warned Serena at the next changeover. "Your coach was giving you advice, if I see that again I'm going to penalise you". That would have taken care of it. I watched Justine Henin lose to Bartoli in the Wimbledon final, and before every point.... every point... she was looking at her box for advice. She didn't get a warning. The idea that the umpire didn't see that is not credible. Yet she got no warning. Why is that? Why was the punishment so different for Serena? And Henin is not unique. Just the other day, Rafa's box was clearly signalling him, he got no warning. Yet Serena in a slam final gets punished at a critical time in the match. I'm sorry but there's something very off about that. I'm no Serena fan. Never have been. I always liked Venus, but fair is fair.

(2) I don't have much to say about the racquet smash. That one is pretty cut and dried. It's consistently applied. Nothing to see there

(3) This is the one that really drives me crazy. Everyone knows I'm a huge Federer fan. I love his tennis. I've met him, he's a really nice guy, sincere and thoughtful. But I've never been such a fan boy that I would give him a pass because he's my guy. I just don't roll like that. The idea that Serena did anything worse than he did in confronting the umpire is laughable. The reality is that I could have brought up countless situations where men have challenged umpires at least as aggressively as Serena did, and I don't recall any of the men punished for it. But it's worse than that. At that point in the match - slam final - she had already been given 2 penalties. Someone yesterday tried to bring up a defence for the umpire that she had already been called twice so she was asking for it. Actually the point is that she had been called twice, you would think the umpire would have exercised good judgement at that point. Never once in the conversation did the umpire say to her, look I've called you twice now. Please be careful from this point forward because the next time I'll be forced to give you a game penalty. In any other sport the umpire would be expected to manage the circumstances and give the player context. This didn't happen. T|his was grossly incompetent in my view. I would say this if this was the first time Serena had been in a controversy on Ashe. Some will say, that's the point, this isn't the first time. Serena should have been aware of this, therefore it's on her. Anyone who thinks that is one of those sad people who has never been in a pressure situation in their life and has simply sat on the shoulders of giants. It doesn't work that way. The umpire is paid to manage the situation to create the most fair outcome for the players and at the same time give the fans their money's worth in terms of entertainment. He didn't do that.

Look.. I blame Serena for a great deal of this. She is entitled, and I will remain convinced that Venus has never really competed fully against her because the fall out would have impacted their relationship, and it simply wasn't worth it to her. That's why I don't really warm up to Serena much. But at the same time, she is treated differently. It is extraordinary to me that officials don't hesitate to take unusual steps against this black woman in particular. There is something there. I am convinced of it. Most might disagree with me. On this I will not be moved. Feel free to disagree with me, but I think y'all know I don't give a damn about that. It is what it is. One treatment for her, something else for the rest

I agree with you except for the last para. To say Vee did not compete hard against Serena is accusing Vee of Professional integrity. You are acting like Elena who said it is the family decision who wins their matches. I am sure Vee competed as much as she could. But, there will always be a subconscious element when playing with siblings and that cannot be avoided.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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How do you "solve the problem" re. on-court coaching? You can't.
Therefore Coaching should be allowed to some degree, maybe following each set .

I think it should be the other way. Coaches and various team members routinely give various signals to the players (funniest one was Meldopova's dad reminding her to eat a banana). It is difficult to detect and punish all of them. So, we should simply make it official to
do signaling from the boxes (but oral coaching from boxes should be disallowed).

I am totally against the idea of allowing on-court coaching (in fact it is already allowed in run of the mill WTA matches). Tennis is an individual game and players should be expected to solve problems using their own mind in real time during the match. That is part of the game.
 
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Denis

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Sad that Serena Williams took it out on the umpire to take away from Osaka's win. 'Demanding' an apology from the umpire in the middle of a slam final? Man, maybe she should be sent back to kindergarten.
 
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