Your predictions for final Big 3 slam tally

Moxie

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It's useless! Stress or something have come over select whiners! Nothing's ever serious enough, funny enough, or indifferent enough! :face-with-hand-over-mouth: :yawningface:
It's one thing to make a joke. It's another to use snark to say what you really want to say, and then pretend that an emoji covers all sins. I'm speaking to you, Queen of the Emojis. :clap: :approved:bomb::beach-with-umbrella:
 
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shawnbm

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I wish there were a way to see what Kieran, Moxie, britbox, el Dude, Broken Shoelace and others predicted on where the Big 3 would wind up in terms of majors won see back in 2014-2016. That would be entertaining to revisit.
 
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shawnbm

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As for this particular post, I have a hard time seeing Rafa winning in Melbourne unless Novak is barred and a few of the big young guns lose early. But he could sneak one in. I still give him the best (and final) shot in Paris, as I think next year may be it. Baby coming and family and he is a family man. As for the Serbian Slayer, I could see him hoisting a couple more hard court trophies and perhaps another in London. If I had to bet, I think he stays in the game until he has the major count title or he will quit tied with Rafa--and I do believe he will try like hell to at least tie the great Spanish Bull.
 
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El Dude

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I wish there were a way to see what Kieran, Moxie, britbox, el Dude, Broken Shoelace and others predicted on where the Big 3 would wind up in terms of majors won see back in 2014-2016. That would be entertaining to revisit.
I think it has been a moving target for all of us, forever receding further into the distance. And at various points over the last decade, I've thought a different one would end up with the lead. When Roger won #17 in 2012, I thought he'd solidified his lead and neither Rafa (11)--and certainly not Novak (5)--would catch him. But after Rafa came back strong in 2013, I started thinking he'd end up catching Roger eventually. For Novak, I don't think I considered him a serious threat for the record until 2015.

By 2016, I think both Roger and Rafa fans were hoping for "one more" - but also thinking it was unlikely. But then Roger improbably won 3 more, and Rafa 8 more. Crazy. So yeah, by the end of 2016, I think most people thought Roger would finish with 17-18, Rafa with 14-15.

And of course Novak also started slipping at the end of 2016, but I don't think people really thought he was in decline until 2017. And of course he's won 9 more from 2018 on. But by the end of 2016, when he had 12 Slam titles to his name, I thought he'd win at least a few more - but not 9+ more. The fact that the three of them have won 20 Slams from 2017 on--the year all of them turned at least 30--is just insane.
 

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I wish there were a way to see what Kieran, Moxie, britbox, el Dude, Broken Shoelace and others predicted on where the Big 3 would wind up in terms of majors won see back in 2014-2016. That would be entertaining to revisit.
I'm not sure about the specific period you mentioned, but I definitely remember predicting around 8 majors tops for Rafa on the old tennis.com boards due to his knees. It might have been around 2008/2009. I don't recall anyone back in the day, talking in terms of 19/20/21 etc... those kind of figures were unheard of in tennis history. Rafa's longevity in the sport surprises me more than anything else.
 

Fiero425

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I'm not sure about the specific period you mentioned, but I definitely remember predicting around 8 majors tops for Rafa on the old tennis.com boards due to his knees. It might have been around 2008/2009. I don't recall anyone back in the day, talking in terms of 19/20/21 etc... those kind of figures were unheard of in tennis history. Rafa's longevity in the sport surprises me more than anything else.

I can't rememeber if I came up with a final major count for Fedal, but I well know I thought Roger should retire on top after Wimbledon in 2012! He had another chance after 2017 Wimbledon win, but his ego wouldn't allow it! Now he's been overtaken by 2 players while staggering to the finish line! All I can remember is jumping on the bandwagon that Novak would inevitably be the GOAT after winning his FO in 2016! He only had the 12 majors, but after such a nice stretch of wins from 2015 to the Summer of '16, there didn't appear anyway for him not to jump into the lead eventually! All the so called experts started commentating & writing that Djokovic w/b the GOAT, including Wilander, Becker, McEnroe, & others! That's when I produced a blog to chronolog his ascension to greatness! Again, it's not that I'm a fan as much as he satisfied my desire to bring Fedal down a peg or 3 after so many yrs of the tennis intelligentsia slobbering over how great they were & "The Rivalry" which wasn't IMO! :shushing-face:
 

Kieran

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I'm not sure about the specific period you mentioned, but I definitely remember predicting around 8 majors tops for Rafa on the old tennis.com boards due to his knees. It might have been around 2008/2009. I don't recall anyone back in the day, talking in terms of 19/20/21 etc... those kind of figures were unheard of in tennis history. Rafa's longevity in the sport surprises me more than anything else.
In 2009 Federer was on 15 slams and Rafa was still ascending but was expected to rival Federer’s totals. Maybe not match them but certainly get close. The big surprise was Novaks surge in 2011. He was easy to dismiss in 2009, but less so, two years later.

The thought in 2009 that Federer might get 20 wouldn’t have been a huge surprise, though it would have been at the end of 2008.

I don’t remember that I predicted any numbers at the time brother @shawnbm is thinking, but I might have thought that Rafa would finish behind Federer. Roger really did get a lot of very easy ones early on, didn’t he?
:popcorn
 
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El Dude

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I think people are forgetting just how much it looked like Rafa was approaching the end, in 2015 and, more so, in 2016. The fact that he rebounded and won 8 more Slams is just crazy. Even his most diehard fans, if I remember correctly, had gotten to the point of hoping for one more Roland Garros win. His (and Roger's) resurgence in 2017 is one of the most amazing tennis phenomena that I've ever seen.
 
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Fiero425

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I think people are forgetting just how much it looked like Rafa was approaching the end, in 2015 and, more so, in 2016. The fact that he rebounded and won 8 more Slams is just crazy. Even his most diehard fans, if I remember correctly, had gotten to the point of hoping for one more Roland Garros win. His (and Roger's) resurgence in 2017 is one of the most amazing tennis phenomena that I've ever seen.

I was hoping anyway! If only! Then Djokovic had a walkabout for a year and a half allowing Fedal Redux with Rafa and Roger splitting the spoils in 2017! I wasn't impressed and blamed the other top players allowing grandpas to rule the tour in their latter years! Novak's return in the Summer of 2018 squashed it and he reasserted his dominance thank GAWD! :fearful-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
 
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El Dude

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I can't rememeber if I came up with a final major count for Fedal, but I well know I thought Roger should retire on top after Wimbledon in 2012! He had another chance after 2017 Wimbledon win, but his ego wouldn't allow it! Now he's been overtaken by 2 players while staggering to the finish line! All I can remember is jumping on the bandwagon that Novak would inevitably be the GOAT after winning his FO in 2016! He only had the 12 majors, but after such a nice stretch of wins from 2015 to the Summer of '16, there didn't appear anyway for him not to jump into the lead eventually! All the so called experts started commentating & writing that Djokovic w/b the GOAT, including Wilander, Becker, McEnroe, & others! That's when I produced a blog to chronolog his ascension to greatness! Again, it's not that I'm a fan as much as he satisfied my desire to bring Fedal down a peg or 3 after so many yrs of the tennis intelligentsia slobbering over how great they were & "The Rivalry" which wasn't IMO! :shushing-face:
As you know, I tend to give (and still give) Novak the singular GOAT crown if I have to pick just one (gun to head), or at least give him a tiny sliver of an edge as "first among equals." But my preference is otherwise - that taking all factors into account, history is best served by seeing them as a "three-headed GOAT" - or, better yet, jettison the whole idea of GOAT.

But I'm going to put on my Fedfan hat for a moment - not to argue that he deserves the singular GOAT, but to defend this idea that he "should have retired" in 2012 or 2017, or at any given point.

For one, even after 2012, Roger was still one of the three best players for another six or seven years, at least most of the time. He struggled at times with injury, but when healthy he was right there - and still going deep in Slams, including three Finals in 2014-15, and a last one in 2019. To say he should have retired in 2012 after Wimbledon, well, it fits the Sampras mold, but part of the legend of Roger (and the Big Three as a whole)--and what sets them apart from Sampras and others--is that they came back, and they returned to the top when it seemed like they were done. And of course by suggesting that he "should have" retired after Wimbledon in 2017 ignores his 2018 AO victory, or the fact that he reached--and almost won--the 2019 Wimbledon.

My sense is that you like the narrative of going out on top - or at least after a big victory. And yeah, it is a nice one. Who knows, maybe if he had won that 2019 Wimbledon he would have retired, and it would have been a beautiful moment. Instead we got the limping anguish of 2020-22. But I don't think that tarnishes his legacy at all. Sampras' retirement is singular, as is Borg's. Everyone else retired in a more conventional way: decline and eventual retirement. Such is life (and tennis).

Now let's talk about Slam totals. Some folks (like @Kieran in his post just above) like to focus on Roger getting early "easy" Slams, but let's also consider the second half of his career. Let's start with the hypothesis that the three of them were, at their best, basically equals. They all have their specializations, and we can argue endlessly about specifics (e.g. peak Novak vs. peak Roger on hards, how much to weigh Rafa's unparalleled clay dominance vs. his weaker resume on hards and grass, etc), but let's just assume, for a moment, that they were all--at their best, and overall as players--equally (or at least similarly) great. To use a phrase from political elections, "too close to call." They all had periods of utter dominance, all enjoyed great longevity, all areas where they were unparalleled, etc etc.

This view implies that a reliance on raw statistics, especially Slam totals, is hugely over-simplistic. Or, at the very least, if you're going to rely on statistics, look at all of them - and put them in context, rather than taking the easy route of "Slam reductionism."

I mean, it is baked into all of us: to think in terms of Slam titles as the singular measure of greatness, or at least by far the most important. Now it may be the most important, at least in terms of bragging rights, but it shouldn't be looked at alone or aside from everything else. Furthermore, we have to consider context. I've often talked about Andy Murray as a lesser great who would have been an ATG if he played 10 years before or 10 years after. The fact is, Andy reached 11 Slam finals - the same as McEnroe, Wilander, and Edberg, and one more than Becker. He just had to face three guys who were better than any player that those four ever had to play, with the possible exception of Borg and Sampras at the tail-end and start of their careers, respectively (this is not to bag on those four guys - the mid-to-late 80s was arguably the most difficult context to win a Slam in, with more ATGs in or near their primes than in any other part of the Open Era, imo...but this is just more fuel for that notion of context being so important).

So let's consider Roger's later career. By 2011, he had not one but two guys in their primes who were not only equally talented, but significantly younger. Between the two of them, they covered the entire spectrum of the tour. And by 2011, together were his equals or betters on every court (though I'd probably give Roger the edge over Novak on grass through 2012, and maybe Roger would keep the edge on fast hards a bit longer, but that's a quibble). While we could argue that Roger was still at or near peak form for at least a good portion of his 30s, he was still in his 30s - and more so, 5-6 years older than two equally skilled players.

Now let's imagine that a 4th guy came into the mix, one born in 1992 - and thus 5-6 years younger than Novak and Rafa. Just as good as the Big Three, but 5-6 years younger than Nadalkovic. Or better yet, imagine two such players emerging. These guys would have reached peak form sometime in the 2012-15 range and still close to peak form today, and provided huge roadblocks for the other three - but most especially Rafa and Novak (in terms of raw titles and Slam count). By the end of 2012, Roger had 17 Slams, Rafa 11, Novak 5. With two new, and younger, guys of similar ability starting to peak around then, there's no way those three get to 20+. Imagining two such players gives us a sense of the context of Roger's career, from 2012 on.

My point being, not only should we not fault Roger for eeking it out to get 18-20, we also need to put Rafa's and Novak's Slam totals in context. A large percentage of their Slams occurred during a time when neither of the next two generations (Lost Gen and Next Gen) produced any players who were even vaguely comparable, or even true All-Time Greats. The first such player that seems a surefire ATG was born in 2003 - 16 years after Novak! Meaning, we're possibly looking at a gap of fifteen years (1988-2002) without any all-time greats being born. Even if Sinner (2001) or FAA (2000) get there, we're still talking 12+ years. And even if Daniil Medvedev resurges and improbably wins 5 more Slams to claim his place among ATGs, we're talking about a pretty significant gap (1987 to 1996).

Of course it should also be said that part of the weakness of those generations is due to the greatness of the Big Three, especially Novak and Rafa. Their greatness and longevity was like a massive concrete wall that younger players couldn't get by. But not all of it, and maybe not even most of it. I don't see any player born from 1988-2002 that I would say would have definitely or even likely been an ATG if the Big Three weren't around, or even just declined at historically typical rates. It is reciprocal, and neither Rafa nor Novak ever had to deal with anything like Roger did: two equally talented players that were half a decade or more younger.

I am not arguing that Roger was greater than the other two. I am arguing that raw Slam totals only tell part of the picture, and that the context of the last decade has to be kept in mind. There's a valid argument to be made that Roger's Slam total was padded early on by some weak opposition, but if we're going to do that, we also have to look at the context of the last decade, the utter lack of new all-time great challengers for Rafa and Novak, that have in turn padded their totals - would argue at least as much as Roger's early Slams.

TLDR: It is a bit silly to argue that Roger "should have" retired at any given point, whether after 2012 or after 2017. He retired when he felt he no longer could compete at the level he wanted to, and there's no shame in the last decade of his career. As far as Slam totals are concerned, not only are they part (if a major part) of the overall statistical picture of any given player, but context is hugely important: in this case, the lack of not even a single truly great player born after Novak in 1987 for possibly as much as 16 years.
 

El Dude

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I was hoping anyway! If only! Then Djokovic had a walkabout for a year and a half allowing Fedal Redux with Rafa and Roger splitting the spoils in 2017! I wasn't impressed and blamed the other top players allowing grandpas to rule the tour in their latter years! Novak's return in the Summer of 2018 squashed it and he reasserted his dominance thank GAWD! :fearful-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
I've gotta give it to you, Fiero: your hyperbole never comes across as malicious. Love the humor of it, even if you frequently veer into ridiculosity and "Old Man Yells at Clouds." ;)
 

Moxie

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I think people are forgetting just how much it looked like Rafa was approaching the end, in 2015 and, more so, in 2016. The fact that he rebounded and won 8 more Slams is just crazy. Even his most diehard fans, if I remember correctly, had gotten to the point of hoping for one more Roland Garros win. His (and Roger's) resurgence in 2017 is one of the most amazing tennis phenomena that I've ever seen.
Rafa was stuck at 14 from 2014 for 3 years, Roger stuck at 17 for even longer, which I honestly thought for a long time would be enough to keep him on top. I really hoped that Rafa would at least get the one more to pass Pete. Hoping for more, despite whatever bluster I may have presented around here, seemed a bit of a pipe dream. That all 3 hit/passed 20 seems crazy to me. It wasn't until Rafa got #18 (with Roger at 20) that I thought he might just tie him before he quit.
 
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Fiero425

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As you know, I tend to give (and still give) Novak the singular GOAT crown if I have to pick just one (gun to head), or at least give him a tiny sliver of an edge as "first among equals." But my preference is otherwise - that taking all factors into account, history is best served by seeing them as a "three-headed GOAT" - or, better yet, jettison the whole idea of GOAT.

But I'm going to put on my Fedfan hat for a moment - not to argue that he deserves the singular GOAT, but to defend this idea that he "should have retired" in 2012 or 2017, or at any given point.

For one, even after 2012, Roger was still one of the three best players for another six or seven years, at least most of the time. He struggled at times with injury, but when healthy he was right there - and still going deep in Slams, including three Finals in 2014-15, and a last one in 2019. To say he should have retired in 2012 after Wimbledon, well, it fits the Sampras mold, but part of the legend of Roger (and the Big Three as a whole)--and what sets them apart from Sampras and others--is that they came back, and they returned to the top when it seemed like they were done. And of course by suggesting that he "should have" retired after Wimbledon in 2017 ignores his 2018 AO victory, or the fact that he reached--and almost won--the 2019 Wimbledon.

My sense is that you like the narrative of going out on top - or at least after a big victory. And yeah, it is a nice one. Who knows, maybe if he had won that 2019 Wimbledon he would have retired, and it would have been a beautiful moment. Instead we got the limping anguish of 2020-22. But I don't think that tarnishes his legacy at all. Sampras' retirement is singular, as is Borg's. Everyone else retired in a more conventional way: decline and eventual retirement. Such is life (and tennis).

Now let's talk about Slam totals. Some folks (like @Kieran in his post just above) like to focus on Roger getting early "easy" Slams, but let's also consider the second half of his career. Let's start with the hypothesis that the three of them were, at their best, basically equals. They all have their specializations, and we can argue endlessly about specifics (e.g. peak Novak vs. peak Roger on hards, how much to weigh Rafa's unparalleled clay dominance vs. his weaker resume on hards and grass, etc), but let's just assume, for a moment, that they were all--at their best, and overall as players--equally (or at least similarly) great. To use a phrase from political elections, "too close to call." They all had periods of utter dominance, all enjoyed great longevity, all areas where they were unparalleled, etc etc.

This view implies that a reliance on raw statistics, especially Slam totals, is hugely over-simplistic. Or, at the very least, if you're going to rely on statistics, look at all of them - and put them in context, rather than taking the easy route of "Slam reductionism."

I mean, it is baked into all of us: to think in terms of Slam titles as the singular measure of greatness, or at least by far the most important. Now it may be the most important, at least in terms of bragging rights, but it shouldn't be looked at alone or aside from everything else. Furthermore, we have to consider context. I've often talked about Andy Murray as a lesser great who would have been an ATG if he played 10 years before or 10 years after. The fact is, Andy reached 11 Slam finals - the same as McEnroe, Wilander, and Edberg, and one more than Becker. He just had to face three guys who were better than any player that those four ever had to play, with the possible exception of Borg and Sampras at the tail-end and start of their careers, respectively (this is not to bag on those four guys - the mid-to-late 80s was arguably the most difficult context to win a Slam in, with more ATGs in or near their primes than in any other part of the Open Era, imo...but this is just more fuel for that notion of context being so important).

So let's consider Roger's later career. By 2011, he had not one but two guys in their primes who were not only equally talented, but significantly younger. Between the two of them, they covered the entire spectrum of the tour. And by 2011, together were his equals or betters on every court (though I'd probably give Roger the edge over Novak on grass through 2012, and maybe Roger would keep the edge on fast hards a bit longer, but that's a quibble). While we could argue that Roger was still at or near peak form for at least a good portion of his 30s, he was still in his 30s - and more so, 5-6 years older than two equally skilled players.

Now let's imagine that a 4th guy came into the mix, one born in 1992 - and thus 5-6 years younger than Novak and Rafa. Just as good as the Big Three, but 5-6 years younger than Nadalkovic. Or better yet, imagine two such players emerging. These guys would have reached peak form sometime in the 2012-15 range and still close to peak form today, and provided huge roadblocks for the other three - but most especially Rafa and Novak (in terms of raw titles and Slam count). By the end of 2012, Roger had 17 Slams, Rafa 11, Novak 5. With two new, and younger, guys of similar ability starting to peak around then, there's no way those three get to 20+. Imagining two such players gives us a sense of the context of Roger's career, from 2012 on.

My point being, not only should we not fault Roger for eeking it out to get 18-20, we also need to put Rafa's and Novak's Slam totals in context. A large percentage of their Slams occurred during a time when neither of the next two generations (Lost Gen and Next Gen) produced any players who were even vaguely comparable, or even true All-Time Greats. The first such player that seems a surefire ATG was born in 2003 - 16 years after Novak! Meaning, we're possibly looking at a gap of fifteen years (1988-2002) without any all-time greats being born. Even if Sinner (2001) or FAA (2000) get there, we're still talking 12+ years. And even if Daniil Medvedev resurges and improbably wins 5 more Slams to claim his place among ATGs, we're talking about a pretty significant gap (1987 to 1996).

Of course it should also be said that part of the weakness of those generations is due to the greatness of the Big Three, especially Novak and Rafa. Their greatness and longevity was like a massive concrete wall that younger players couldn't get by. But not all of it, and maybe not even most of it. I don't see any player born from 1988-2002 that I would say would have definitely or even likely been an ATG if the Big Three weren't around, or even just declined at historically typical rates. It is reciprocal, and neither Rafa nor Novak ever had to deal with anything like Roger did: two equally talented players that were half a decade or more younger.

I am not arguing that Roger was greater than the other two. I am arguing that raw Slam totals only tell part of the picture, and that the context of the last decade has to be kept in mind. There's a valid argument to be made that Roger's Slam total was padded early on by some weak opposition, but if we're going to do that, we also have to look at the context of the last decade, the utter lack of new all-time great challengers for Rafa and Novak, that have in turn padded their totals - would argue at least as much as Roger's early Slams.

TLDR: It is a bit silly to argue that Roger "should have" retired at any given point, whether after 2012 or after 2017. He retired when he felt he no longer could compete at the level he wanted to, and there's no shame in the last decade of his career. As far as Slam totals are concerned, not only are they part (if a major part) of the overall statistical picture of any given player, but context is hugely important: in this case, the lack of not even a single truly great player born after Novak in 1987 for possibly as much as 16 years.

I appreciate everything you had to say and wrote in this "The Iliad," but it's full of "what if?!" All those suppositions of age, other comp. & maybes didn't happen! Numbers are numbers; cold and hard! No one 100 years from now is going to be making up "outside possibilities" to justify a change in thinking when it comes to the GOAT race! Fed's the classiest and most graceful, while Rafa was the work-horse! In the end it won't matter if Novak overtakes them in every possible catagory! He's already there, just 1 major behind Rafa! All the other #'s belong to ND; wks @ #1, total wks. @ #1, YE #1's @ 7, Double Golden Masters, 2 CGS's, & a Nole-Slam! Fedal don't really come close to those at this time in their careers! They're all about to exit the stage! We'll appreciate them, but like the "Highlander," "there can be only one!" :shushing-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::astonished-face:
 
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El Dude

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Rafa was stuck at 14 from 2014 for 3 years, Roger stuck at 17 for even longer, which I honestly thought for a long time would be enough to keep him on top. I really hoped that Rafa would at least get the one more to pass Pete. Hoping for more, despite whatever bluster I may have presented around here, seemed a bit of a pipe dream. That all 3 hit/passed 20 seems crazy to me. It wasn't until Rafa got #18 (with Roger at 20) that I thought he might just tie him before he quit.
Yep. I started thinking Rafa would pass Roger in 2014, when it was 14 and 17, especially when Novak took the Wimbledon crown from Roger. But then by 2016, I thought they were both done, and that Novak was going to pass Rafa and maybe Roger. How it has unfolded was truly unexpected.
 
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Nadalfan2013

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Yep. I started thinking Rafa would pass Roger in 2014, when it was 14 and 17, especially when Novak took the Wimbledon crown from Roger. But then by 2016, I thought they were both done, and that Novak was going to pass Rafa and maybe Roger. How it has unfolded was truly unexpected.

For those who have a lot of knowledge about tennis it was obvious since day one that Nadal is the true GOAT. The only reason why he doesn't lead them by 5+ slams are his countless injuries and setbacks throughout his career.
 

El Dude

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I appreciate everything you had to say and wrote in this "The Iliad," but it's full of "what if?!" All those suppositions of age, other comp. & maybes didn't happen! Numbers are numbers; cold and hard! No one 100 years from now is going to be making up "outside possibilities" to justify a change in thinking when it comes to the GOAT race! Fed's the classiest and most graceful, while Rafa was the work-horse! In the end it won't matter if Novak overtakes them in every possible catagory! He's already there, just 1 major behind Rafa! All the other #'s belong to ND; wks @ #1, total wks. @ #1, YE #1's @ 7, 2 Double Golden Slams, 2 CGS's, & a Nole-Slam! Fedal don't really come close to those at this time in their careers! They're all about to exit the stage! We'll appreciate them, but like the "Highlander," "there can be only one!" :shushing-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::astonished-face:
I think you're missing my point.

Yes, numbers are numbers - there is no refuting them, regardless of what What If scenarios one entertains. But again, that's not my point. My point is about context - and how we determine non-factual determinations like "GOAT."

I'll use weeks at #1 as an example. Novak has 373 and may get more. Roger ends with 310, and Rafa is unlikely to add to his 209 (though it isn't impossible).

We can factually say that Novak is +63 weeks over Roger and +164 weeks over Rafa. That is impressive. But what conclusions we draw from that are subjective. Meaning, the "cold and hard" numbers (objective facts) don't automatically equate to subjective characterizations (e.g. GOAT).

Again, I think Novak has the best overall career resume already, and is likely to add to it - or at least distance himself further from Roger, and solidify his lead over Rafa in most ways. But my point about context is that as factual and "cold and hard" numbers are, they don't arise within an all-equalizing context. To some degree they even out over time, but every era is different, and really, every year and tournament.
 

El Dude

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For those who have a lot of knowledge about tennis it was obvious since day one that Nadal is the true GOAT. The only reason why he doesn't lead them by 5+ slams are his countless injuries and setbacks throughout his career.
You're almost cute, like a puppy dog who is a bit overly enamored with its owner.
 
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the AntiPusher

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As you know, I tend to give (and still give) Novak the singular GOAT crown if I have to pick just one (gun to head), or at least give him a tiny sliver of an edge as "first among equals." But my preference is otherwise - that taking all factors into account, history is best served by seeing them as a "three-headed GOAT" - or, better yet, jettison the whole idea of GOAT.

But I'm going to put on my Fedfan hat for a moment - not to argue that he deserves the singular GOAT, but to defend this idea that he "should have retired" in 2012 or 2017, or at any given point.

For one, even after 2012, Roger was still one of the three best players for another six or seven years, at least most of the time. He struggled at times with injury, but when healthy he was right there - and still going deep in Slams, including three Finals in 2014-15, and a last one in 2019. To say he should have retired in 2012 after Wimbledon, well, it fits the Sampras mold, but part of the legend of Roger (and the Big Three as a whole)--and what sets them apart from Sampras and others--is that they came back, and they returned to the top when it seemed like they were done. And of course by suggesting that he "should have" retired after Wimbledon in 2017 ignores his 2018 AO victory, or the fact that he reached--and almost won--the 2019 Wimbledon.

My sense is that you like the narrative of going out on top - or at least after a big victory. And yeah, it is a nice one. Who knows, maybe if he had won that 2019 Wimbledon he would have retired, and it would have been a beautiful moment. Instead we got the limping anguish of 2020-22. But I don't think that tarnishes his legacy at all. Sampras' retirement is singular, as is Borg's. Everyone else retired in a more conventional way: decline and eventual retirement. Such is life (and tennis).

Now let's talk about Slam totals. Some folks (like @Kieran in his post just above) like to focus on Roger getting early "easy" Slams, but let's also consider the second half of his career. Let's start with the hypothesis that the three of them were, at their best, basically equals. They all have their specializations, and we can argue endlessly about specifics (e.g. peak Novak vs. peak Roger on hards, how much to weigh Rafa's unparalleled clay dominance vs. his weaker resume on hards and grass, etc), but let's just assume, for a moment, that they were all--at their best, and overall as players--equally (or at least similarly) great. To use a phrase from political elections, "too close to call." They all had periods of utter dominance, all enjoyed great longevity, all areas where they were unparalleled, etc etc.

This view implies that a reliance on raw statistics, especially Slam totals, is hugely over-simplistic. Or, at the very least, if you're going to rely on statistics, look at all of them - and put them in context, rather than taking the easy route of "Slam reductionism."

I mean, it is baked into all of us: to think in terms of Slam titles as the singular measure of greatness, or at least by far the most important. Now it may be the most important, at least in terms of bragging rights, but it shouldn't be looked at alone or aside from everything else. Furthermore, we have to consider context. I've often talked about Andy Murray as a lesser great who would have been an ATG if he played 10 years before or 10 years after. The fact is, Andy reached 11 Slam finals - the same as McEnroe, Wilander, and Edberg, and one more than Becker. He just had to face three guys who were better than any player that those four ever had to play, with the possible exception of Borg and Sampras at the tail-end and start of their careers, respectively (this is not to bag on those four guys - the mid-to-late 80s was arguably the most difficult context to win a Slam in, with more ATGs in or near their primes than in any other part of the Open Era, imo...but this is just more fuel for that notion of context being so important).

So let's consider Roger's later career. By 2011, he had not one but two guys in their primes who were not only equally talented, but significantly younger. Between the two of them, they covered the entire spectrum of the tour. And by 2011, together were his equals or betters on every court (though I'd probably give Roger the edge over Novak on grass through 2012, and maybe Roger would keep the edge on fast hards a bit longer, but that's a quibble). While we could argue that Roger was still at or near peak form for at least a good portion of his 30s, he was still in his 30s - and more so, 5-6 years older than two equally skilled players.

Now let's imagine that a 4th guy came into the mix, one born in 1992 - and thus 5-6 years younger than Novak and Rafa. Just as good as the Big Three, but 5-6 years younger than Nadalkovic. Or better yet, imagine two such players emerging. These guys would have reached peak form sometime in the 2012-15 range and still close to peak form today, and provided huge roadblocks for the other three - but most especially Rafa and Novak (in terms of raw titles and Slam count). By the end of 2012, Roger had 17 Slams, Rafa 11, Novak 5. With two new, and younger, guys of similar ability starting to peak around then, there's no way those three get to 20+. Imagining two such players gives us a sense of the context of Roger's career, from 2012 on.

My point being, not only should we not fault Roger for eeking it out to get 18-20, we also need to put Rafa's and Novak's Slam totals in context. A large percentage of their Slams occurred during a time when neither of the next two generations (Lost Gen and Next Gen) produced any players who were even vaguely comparable, or even true All-Time Greats. The first such player that seems a surefire ATG was born in 2003 - 16 years after Novak! Meaning, we're possibly looking at a gap of fifteen years (1988-2002) without any all-time greats being born. Even if Sinner (2001) or FAA (2000) get there, we're still talking 12+ years. And even if Daniil Medvedev resurges and improbably wins 5 more Slams to claim his place among ATGs, we're talking about a pretty significant gap (1987 to 1996).

Of course it should also be said that part of the weakness of those generations is due to the greatness of the Big Three, especially Novak and Rafa. Their greatness and longevity was like a massive concrete wall that younger players couldn't get by. But not all of it, and maybe not even most of it. I don't see any player born from 1988-2002 that I would say would have definitely or even likely been an ATG if the Big Three weren't around, or even just declined at historically typical rates. It is reciprocal, and neither Rafa nor Novak ever had to deal with anything like Roger did: two equally talented players that were half a decade or more younger.

I am not arguing that Roger was greater than the other two. I am arguing that raw Slam totals only tell part of the picture, and that the context of the last decade has to be kept in mind. There's a valid argument to be made that Roger's Slam total was padded early on by some weak opposition, but if we're going to do that, we also have to look at the context of the last decade, the utter lack of new all-time great challengers for Rafa and Novak, that have in turn padded their totals - would argue at least as much as Roger's early Slams.

TLDR: It is a bit silly to argue that Roger "should have" retired at any given point, whether after 2012 or after 2017. He retired when he felt he no longer could compete at the level he wanted to, and there's no shame in the last decade of his career. As far as Slam totals are concerned, not only are they part (if a major part) of the overall statistical picture of any given player, but context is hugely important: in this case, the lack of not even a single truly great player born after Novak in 1987 for possibly as much as 16 years.
Good Grief what a load of horse manure.. I miss @MargaretMcAleer already! Moxie.. how many days before she returns
 

TheSicilian

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I see the Rafa fans are desperate for Novak to suffer a serious and/or chronic injury :p
More like some fans are tired of Novax crying wolf with injury... Disgraceful to exaggerate any injury especially the wrist which robbed Delpo of a career :face-with-symbols-on-mouth: