World Cup 2018

monfed

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First game of the world cup is huge. Lots of pressure. You set your stall out. The Messi penalty miss was more consequential. That's just a fact. If they don't win tomorrow that will be the focus of Argentinian ire

Bullshit. If Argentina go out, the focus will be on their disastrous performance against Croatia. A draw to start the tournament is in no way a disastrous start. Not the greatest start but not the worst.

However, going down 0-3 against a team they were expected to atleast draw if not beat is what has caused this calamity.

And the issue is not Messi, it's their coach who has ruined the team with his lack of leadership and tactics. The whole team is in a disarray. It's not Messi's fault that Caballero doesn't know goalkeeping.

Did you even watch the south american WC qualifiers? Had it not been for Messi, they wouldn't have even qualified.
 

Federberg

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Bullshit. If Argentina go out, the focus will be on their disastrous performance against Croatia. A draw to start the tournament is in no way a disastrous start. Not the greatest start but not the worst.

However, going down 0-3 against a team they were expected to atleast draw if not beat is what has caused this calamity.

And the issue is not Messi, it's their coach who has ruined the team with his lack of leadership and tactics. The whole team is in a disarray. It's not Messi's fault that Caballero doesn't know goalkeeping.

Did you even watch the south american WC qualifiers? Had it not been for Messi, they wouldn't have even qualified.
I don't know who thought Croatia was a team Argentina were favoured to beat. We might talk about the score line, but Croatia should have beaten Argentina. Drawing against Iceland however was just a shocker. Nigeria rolled them over with ease
 

Moxie

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Thanks to an appalling refereeing decision. This guy should not be allowed to do anymore matches. Shocking
What was the decision you thought was wrong?
 

Federberg

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What was the decision you thought was wrong?
It wasn't a penalty for Iran. The decision was based on a handball in the penalty area. But the rule is that it has to be intentional and clear. It wasn't either of those things. By the way I don't think Cristiano was fouled for his penalty either. The referee has already been questioned for his decisions prior to this match
 
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monfed

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I don't know who thought Croatia was a team Argentina were favoured to beat. We might talk about the score line, but Croatia should have beaten Argentina. Drawing against Iceland however was just a shocker. Nigeria rolled them over with ease

Pretty much everyone thought Argentina would beat Croatia as they have better players but the coach messed up the team and the goalkeeper ruined everything. Besides Modric,Croatia is nothing special. And another fun fact, Croatia had lost their last 4 or 5 matches to south american teams so it wasn't looking good for them.
 

Federberg

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Pretty much everyone thought Argentina would beat Croatia as they have better players but the coach messed up the team and the goalkeeper ruined everything. Besides Modric,Croatia is nothing special. And another fun fact, Croatia had lost their last 4 or 5 matches to south american teams so it wasn't looking good for them.
Lol! No one over here in England thought Argentina were favourites for that match. We thought that Messi might do something special, but this Croatian team is good. On the one hand you point out the difficulties Argentina had qualifying then you over estimate their abilities in the Word Cup. Make up your mind mate
 

monfed

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Lol! No one over here in England thought Argentina were favourites for that match. We thought that Messi might do something special, but this Croatian team is good. On the one hand you point out the difficulties Argentina had qualifying then you over estimate their abilities in the Word Cup. Make up your mind mate

Give me a break, if Argentina had played anywhere near their potential , Croatia wouldn't have won, at best it would've been a draw.

Argentina is ranked 5th, Croatia 20th and had lost the last 4 or 5 games against SA teams as I already mentioned. They were a dangerous side but you talk as if they're Germany/Brazil.

And your lazy analysis aside, Germany lost the opener against Mexico but came back in the 2nd game albeit in the last minute but still they're favourites to qualify.

I'm sure if Caballero farts, you'll blame Messi for it.
 

Federberg

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Give me a break, if Argentina had played anywhere near their potential , Croatia wouldn't have won, at best it would've been a draw.

Argentina is ranked 5th, Croatia 20th and had lost the last 4 or 5 games against SA teams as I already mentioned. They were a dangerous side but you talk as if they're Germany/Brazil.

And your lazy analysis aside, Germany lost the opener against Mexico but came back in the 2nd game albeit in the last minute but still they're favourites to qualify.

I'm sure if Caballero farts, you'll blame Messi for it.
Oh good grief. You're actually basing your views on FIFA rankings? Give me a break.
So in your mind Argentina are the 5th best team but nothing sticks to Messi for his poor performance so far. Yeah right... :D
 

Horsa

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Give me a break, if Argentina had played anywhere near their potential , Croatia wouldn't have won, at best it would've been a draw.

Argentina is ranked 5th, Croatia 20th and had lost the last 4 or 5 games against SA teams as I already mentioned. They were a dangerous side but you talk as if they're Germany/Brazil.

And your lazy analysis aside, Germany lost the opener against Mexico but came back in the 2nd game albeit in the last minute but still they're favourites to qualify.

I'm sure if Caballero farts, you'll blame Messi for it.
Excuse me, please but I thought that a Caballero rode horses (caballos) Another word for a horse is Equus caballus so I wonder whether that's where the Spanish got their name for horse (caballo). I know it's where we got the term for the family horses belong to (Equine which also includes ponies, donkeys, mules, asses & zebras) unless that comes from 1 of horses ancestors (Equus sylvestris).
 

monfed

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Excuse me, please but I thought that a Caballero rode horses (caballos) Another word for a horse is Equus caballus so I wonder whether that's where the Spanish got their name for horse (caballo). I know it's where we got the term for the family horses belong to (Equine which also includes ponies, donkeys, mules, asses & zebras) unless that comes from 1 of horses ancestors (Equus sylvestris).

da fuk did i just read
 

Horsa

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O.K. I'll put it simply. You were talking about Caballero. In Spanish a Caballero is a horse-rider & a caballo is a horse. 1 of the other names for a horse is Equus caballus. I was wondering whether that was where the Spaniards got their name for a horse & where we got the term Equine for the family of animals the horse is in or whether that came from the name of 1 of their ancestors Equus sylvestris. You know I'm horse-mad. I'm also interested in etymology.
 

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^Lol! You're going to sit there and suggest that the Champions League is the most prestigious tournament in the world? Errr... ok. Nuff said. It certainly has the most concentrated level of talent, no argument there. But in terms of pressure? No way no how. The fact that the players in national teams have so little time together makes the World Cup more difficult. The fact that most players want to win the World Cup more than they want to win a Champions League medal increases the level of pressure they face dramatically. The very greatest players embrace that pressure and do great things.

No, but I'm seriously going to suggest you flat out didn't understand at all what I said. I said the World Cup is NOT the highest level of football because most prestigious tournament =/= not highest level. This means, while the World Cup is undoubtedly the most prestigious (clear enough?), the level of football is not as high as it is in the Champions League so suggesting Messi hasn't done it at the highest level is silly.

In terms of pressure, of course there's more pressure in the World Cup. It happens once every 4 years so there's no "next season," and the hopes of a nation lie on your shoulders.

You argue sometimes players just miss penalties. I absolutely agree. Of course it's not the first time Messi has missed crucial penalties. I recall the season Chelsea won the Champions League that Messi laid a turd as well. So it's not like this is the first time this has happened. There's something there whether you want to see it or not. Who's talking about the Euros. Right here we saw Cristiano execute under the most extreme pressure against his greatest national rival. That's cohones right there mate. That's greatness. That's not an indictment of Messi's career to be fair. But if you want to make a case for Messi's GOAThood, right here in this tournament is a player who pushes him close. Who has just showed what stuff he's made of for his country. Messi...didn't. You can call that an inane argument if you want. Whatever insult you want to make isn't going to change reality. Sorry

This couldn't be more well-timed considering Ronaldo just had a bad game and missed a crucial penalty that would have knocked his team out if Iran hadn't missed a one-on-one opportunity in the 93rd minute to win the match. I guess Ronaldo choked? So he had cohones in the first game but he lacked them now? Or did he just miss a penalty? That's my problem with these generalities and sensationalized takes... they can literally swing one way or the other based on whatever happened in the last game. If the Iranian player converts on that one-on-one which he absolutely should have, Portugal are out and part of the blame, in this game, is on Ronaldo. Does that make him a choker? How does it work? I'm honestly asking.
 
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brokenshoelace

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He's won a title for his country.

Look.. I don't think Cristiano is better than Messi. At best he's matched him. At best. I think he's a better fit in most teams. You pretty much have to build a team around Messi. I think at their respective peaks you could have played Cristiano in any number of ways but it was always far more limited for Messi. Does that make him a better player? No. But you would certainly have to think about it if you were building a team from scratch. I can think of few players with the sort of close control Messi has. He's absolutely phenomenal and a joy to watch. You probably think I don't like him. I do. I just think the idea of him being the GOAT is absurd

See, that's a post of substance and nuance, that I'd gladly debate without feeling that its content is offensive even if I don't agree.

I think Ronaldo has succeeded in every position he's played at. He initially started as a right winger for Man Utd, then switched to a left wing forward for Madrid, and occasionally a right wing forward, before playing a lot as a pure striker or a second striker. In all these positions he's succeeded.

But then, so did Messi. When he first started in Barcelona under Rijkaard, he played as a right wing forward. I think he, alongside Arjen Robben revolutionized the concept of the left footed winger because it started the trend of playing them on the right side so that they can cut inside to their left and shoot, and generally gave them more options. He continued in that position in his first season under Guardiola until he famously switched him to a false 9 against Real Madrid and Barcelona hammered them at the Bernabeu 6-2 with Messi scoring a brace. Again next season, he was deployed in that position (which led to some incompatibility with the newly acquired Ibrahimovic), before having a pure free role the following season in 2011 with David Villa as a striker who occasionally moved to the left side. In 2012, after Villa broke his foot, Messi played as a striker and a false nine, and scored 92 goals in one year, which is beyond prolific and it's the sort of numbers no goalscorer in the modern era has even sniffed since Gerd Muller. In 2015, under Enrique, after acquiring Suarez, Messi went back to playing on the right, before now settling in a pure number 10 free role position playing behind the striker. In all those roles, he's been exceptional, including in his role as a pure play-maker for Argentina (we can bring up him not winning the WC, but nobody can seriously claim he hasn't been great for the national team...just look at his numbers).

As far as who's a better fit on most teams, that's tricky and very interesting. I tend to agree with you about Ronaldo in that regard. You can throw him anywhere. However, the reason behind that (other than Ronaldo being amazing) is very nuanced and somewhat ironic. The thing about Messi is, and this is what I think people don't always take into account, he's so talented that wherever he played over the past 5-6 years (mainly since Xavi declined), he IS the system, rather than being part of the system. This is true for Barcelona now more than ever, and has always been true for Argentina. He is the playmaker, the top goalscorer, and the main source of assists. In other words, he literally has to do it all, meaning more is expected and required of him. Because of that, you need a specific brand of players to compliment him, while Ronaldo can be surrounded by a variety of players and he's still going to do his job, which these days is almost exclusively limited to scoring (which don't get me wrong, is a HUGE burden on anyone and obviously the biggest aspect of the game). I just think Messi has to do that, and more.
 

brokenshoelace

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These guys don't know how to use VAR. That was not a penalty

I think the advantages of VAR far outweigh the cons, and we've seen that so far (the Neymar penalty being taken away due to a dive, the Iran goal being taken away due to offside vs. Spain, the vast majority of penalties being correct decisions, etc...), but they have gotten it wrong on some occasions. I'm so happy though, that you specified that "these people don't know how to use VAR." It drives me crazy when anti-VAR people claim VAR is a joke as if IT is getting the decisions wrong. No you idiots, the referee who is reviewing the play is getting the decision wrong. VAR is simply a tool that gives the referee the best chance at getting the call right. If he still gets the call wrong after that, that's on him. I do think the one downside now is that players are swarming the refs after every big call or no-call demanding the use of VAR, but then again, players protesting was happening all the time even before VAR.
 

monfed

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LEO MESSI THE GOAT DELIVERS!!!!

ARGENTINA THROUGH!!!!!
 

monfed

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What an amazing amazing moment in football history. Look at Leo!! Absolutely epic!! My prayers were answered! Thank you god!!

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brokenshoelace

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Sampaoli tried his best to cost them, but luckily, they made it through, albeit in the least convincing way possible. Di Maria should never be anywhere near the first team again though, he was atrocious. Mascherano was one giant mess and almost cost them dearly. Higuain starting over Aguero was scandalous and again he almost cost them by wasting two golden chances. Meza being the first substitution is flat-out ridiculous. Sampaoli is a complete joke. That said, Banega was great and I have no idea how he wasn't a starter all along since he's their only creative spark in midfield. That assist was marvelous. Messi finally delivered this World Cup.

That said, France is going to absolutely tear them to pieces.
 
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monfed

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Higuain over Aguero is the worst coaching decision possible. I hope Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano can all clean up their games for the France match. Banega has been a revelation. Wish Lavezzi was around, he was amazing in 2014.
 

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Crazy end to S. Korea v Germany. They sent Neuer up in desperation and Korea scored with an empty net.
 

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The Germans are out. They were largely subpar in this tournament and deserved to go out. After eliminating Italy, Sweden have legitimized their presence in the World Cup by topping their group.