World Cup 2018

[britbox]

He won't be perceived as the GOAT in the years ahead without a WC.

 

[monfed]

An even bigger shame we'll still have to hear Pele's name in the greatest convo. Messi winning a WC would've completely put that to bed. It's a pity because both Messi and Maradona are superior players than Pele. And Messi is better than Maradona for sure.

 

[monfed]

He won't be perceived as the GOAT in the years ahead without a WC.

I don't know about that. Depends what kindof football fan you are. If all you care about are titles then yes but if you recognize quality then no.

 

[atttomole]

He won't be perceived as the GOAT in the years ahead without a WC.

Definitely agree with that. The GOAT conversation started largely because of his superlative play at club level, but the fact that he has not won even a Coppa America is a big deal. I still remember the same being said about Ronaldo de Lima in the early 2000's. They were making the point that he had to win the world cup to be considered among the greatest.

 

[monfed]

The most unfortunate thing about Argentina is that if they just had a better coach like Guus Hiddinck who knows how to put players in the right positions, Argentina with Messi's magic could've won this WC. But you had a total clown as coach and it cost them dearly. Playing Aguero as a sub? Meza over Dybala? Really? Man even I could've coached better than that fool.

I think this WC aside from the coach, I'm most disappointed by Mascherano. He was one of the players in 2014 but in this WC he was a shocker. Never expected such bad play from him.

Last WC too they had a bad coach, not as bad as this clown but still bad and even in that WC I remember saying if Argentina is going to win they need a good TACTICAL coach like a Hiddinck or a Lippi.

 

[Federberg]

what a cracking World Cup! I am absolutely loving the quality. As I thought France are so powerful. Mbappe is something special. He has everything

 

[monfed]

and there goes Ronaldo. LOLOLOLOL FAKE GOAT

 

[Federberg]

^I wasn't aware anyone claimed he was a GOAT candidate. Anyway... woeva

 

[monfed]

Suarez - Cavani duo is breathtaking really. Two of my favourite strikers. I hope they go far.

 

[monfed]

^I wasn't aware anyone claimed he was a GOAT candidate. Anyway... woeva

Then why are you triggered?

 

[Federberg]

Then why are you triggered?

I'm not mate. I was just wondering where that came from. If it's just trolling I get it..

 

[monfed]

I'm not mate. I was just wondering where that came from. If it's just trolling I get it..

I'm pulling your leg

 

[monfed]

Wasn't a meaningful game though, both teams had already qualified, were fielding mainly reserve players and the losing team had a better expected draw going forward.

If England win the WC and I really hope they don't, it will be an insult to the Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard generation.

 

[brokenshoelace]

He won't be perceived as the GOAT in the years ahead without a WC.

Look I understand why this is supposedly the criteria, but it doesn't make it any less asinine. It's like people willingly accept all the logical fallacies in this argument, but are all like "well yeah, but that's just how it rolls mate." So he lost 1-0 after extra time in the final 4 years ago. If he wins, he's the best ever? So a Mario Gotze goal and two Gonzalo Higuain/Rodrigo Palacio misses are why he isn't the best in the world? And if it's "well, he should have scored himself then" I'll ask everyone to show me Maradona's goal in the World Cup final, or his great performance that day (it wasn't).

It's like "yeah, he spent his career playing week in, week out, marvelous football for literally over a decade, but this one event which happens once every 4 years and you need all the right circumstances to win...THAT's what shows us how good he REALLY is."

Also, I hate to break it to anyone who romanticizes the old days but the level of football now at the World Cup is significantly higher than it was in the 80's in terms of athleticism, professionalism, tactical awareness, coaching, etc... and that's why you see such an all around homogeneous level between teams and you see teams like Mexico and South Korea taking the World Champions to the woodshed.

It's like people want to willingly ignore all the nuances of the debate for the sake of a rigid, dogmatic, arbitrary criteria.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Also, here's a major logical fallacy in the "you have to win the WC to be considered the greatest thing." All right, so this means Maradona is better than Messi. That's fine. I can live with that.

Does this also mean that...Zidane is better than Messi? Romario is better than Messi? Notice, I'm not using the stupid "oh this must means Ozil is better than Messi" because I understand we're talking about players who starred for their teams and are the reason why their teams won. So yes, this is my question: Is Romario a greater player than Lionel Messi? Please, I need an answer. Because Brazil would have absolutely NEVER won the 1994 World Cup without him, and he was undoubtedly a great player and at one point, arguably the best in the world. Is he better than Messi?

And if the answer is no, then clearly, that's because we have actually watched them play, assessed their levels, and also took their other accomplishments into account. So with that, we're acknowledging that it's also the full body of work that should be taken into consideration.

And if you're argument to THAT is "Well yes, but when two players have a similar body of work, then surely winning the WC is the decider" then I'll kindly tell you to seriously, with a straight face, point me in the direction of a player who's produced a similar body of work to Messi year after year. The only one that comes close is actually Cristiano Ronaldo, ironically.

And finally, I'm a huge fan of the original Ronaldo. One of the best to ever do it and the greatest striker of all time. At his best he's unplayable more so than any player I've ever seen. But he spent his career injured and his peak was literally 3 years, after which he struggled with injuries that sandwiched a great and deserved 2002 WC win in which he was the star. Following that, he was still very good obviously but couldn't win shit in a loaded Real Madrid team that featured Zidane, Figo, Raul, Roberto Carlos, etc... (ONE Liga title and that's it. No CL, no nothing). So, we ignore all of this and the injuries, because a WC weighs more heavily than years and years of a career? Can someone please define the criteria for me?

 

[Carol]

Spain vs Russia, tough match because I don’t see Spain playing his best but I hope they win.....

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

messi/Ronaldo's career is so far above Maradona that for me..that debate was over a few years ago..anyway back to worldcup action.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

talking of alltime great players..spain have dropped 34yr old Iniesta to the bench..

but he cannot last a full high end match anymore..central midfield is one of toughest positions to keep fitness going, so coming on after 60mins with poss extra time is prob a good move..and its only Russia.

 

[Carol]

The problem with Messi and Rolando in they are great players, the best ones but they also play year by year with the best soccer teams, Barcelona and Madrid so when they play with diferent teams like now even players of their own country things change a lot, it’s not so easy for both of them

 

[Carol]

talking of alltime great players..spain have dropped 34yr old Iniesta to the bench..

but he cannot last a full high end match anymore..central midfield is one of toughest positions to keep fitness going, so coming on after 60mins with poss extra time is prob a good move..and its only Russia.

Running side to side for 45 minutes is not easy at all, Iniest is ok on the bench until they need him, good decision