When will Nadal win another tourney ?

Kieran

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Fiero425 said:
Kieran said:
I think it's just this board is obsessed with Rafa. I mean, nobody is discussing Federer, are they?

What do you want said about Roger? He's not even playing this week! The poor thing needs his rest before that last push for a major! This might be it; ya never know! :puzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: :p :ras:

It's strange, but this might be true. Roger is 34 now, hard to see him pushing for slams next season. Better start appreciating the old bass turd before he retires... ;)
 

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Kieran said:
Fiero425 said:
Kieran said:
I think it's just this board is obsessed with Rafa. I mean, nobody is discussing Federer, are they?

What do you want said about Roger? He's not even playing this week! The poor thing needs his rest before that last push for a major! This might be it; ya never know! :puzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: :p :ras:

It's strange, but this might be true. Roger is 34 now, hard to see him pushing for slams next season. Better start appreciating the old bass turd before he retires... ;)

I have and I do! Nothing lasts forever though! I've seen them come and go since Laver, Borg, and Connors! So far he's been able to sustain a level I didn't think possible with all the new blood out there, but they've been found to be "gutless" so I shouldn't be too surprised! I figured when he dropped a little to #6, that was it, but the tour has allowed him to hold onto a very solid #2 ranking! Murray s/b a little ashamed of himself with all the people who've worked with him; so far barely holding on himself at #3! I was ready to flip Fed and Mur, but he's disappointed all his fans of late! :cover :nono :angel: :dodgy:
 

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Hey, happy Nadal fans, I have not followed this thread closely, so I do not know if somebody already asked:

a) When will Nadal win another tourney facing a non-clown in the final?
b) When will Nadal win another non-clay tourney?
c) When will Nadal win another important tourney?
d) When will Nadal win another discussion with Carlos Bernades? oh wait, he never won one...


Easy, soft skins, just one question is serious...
 

Carol

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Kirijax said:
Kieran said:
I think it's just this board is obsessed with Rafa. I mean, nobody is discussing Federer, are they?

This board is more balanced I think. One of the reasons I came to TF was because the nauseating Nadalism was just too much to stomach. There are some real loons out there.

Did you mean nauseating Federism and that's the reason why there is a Nadalism? :-/ :s
 

Carol

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mrzz said:
Hey, happy Nadal fans, I have not followed this thread closely, so I do not know if somebody already asked:

a) When will Nadal win another tourney facing a non-clown in the final?
b) When will Nadal win another non-clay tourney?
c) When will Nadal win another important tourney?
d) When will Nadal win another discussion with Carlos Bernades? oh wait, he never won one...


Easy, soft skins, just one question is serious...

And you are fan of who? :laydownlaughing :lolz: :nono
 

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DarthFed said:
Carol35 said:
Dhilip kumar said:
Ya everyone can see he's working hard. but i meant about his style of playing which involves much strain. He has done great job over the years and it didnt surprise me to see him struggling to play like
before because of too much injuries. because of his tireless running and his hardwork to smash the


tennis ball with awesome power he was able to conquer the french open over a very long period. and i doubt whether he would be able to reach that fitness level at age nearing 30. And the form Djokovic is,
it looks Nadal shld come up with a lot of stuff more than he had at his peak. Lets hope he does.. :)
Talking about Novak....another one that the way he plays, the way that he twists his legs and the ankles, the way that he moves his arms when he hit the ball, do you think that he is going to last too long playing that way? I know the yoga sessions is helping giving him to get that flexibility (the rubber man as Monfils) but it's a miracle that he doesn't get more injuries
If Rafa would recovery his total confidence then he would show one more time that it's not so difficult to beat Novak like he did in 2013. Look Wawrinka, he won RG for the first time thanks to the bad conditions of the best clay player and playing against the player who had more anxiety to win than anyone else. Wimbledon? who played well? Federer? sorry but he is not even the shadow that he was three years ego, he played pretty bad.
We'll see in Montreal, Rafa has a tough draw but his result will depend of him, his opponents? 2015 has been a very odd year, since the AO I haven't seen any of them playing so well, they were too inconsistent and Rafa lost matches that he never ever had to have lost

His style of play is a lot less demanding than Rafa's. And Nole has a lot more offensive shotmaking and a better serve and therefore he usually cuts through players a lot more efficiently than Rafa ever has and it's easy to see why he aged better. He always was going to.

Rafa can return to 2013 all he wants if Nole plays like he has this year. It won't matter.
So you are saying 2008, 2010 , 2013 or any stage of Rafa's career he would not be able to beat present day Djokovic. That's is really putting your admiration for this currently number one ranked tennis player. So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015 but at the same time he is being touted by you as the invincible one.
 

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the AntiPusher said:
So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015.

Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.
 

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Kirijax said:
Kieran said:
I think it's just this board is obsessed with Rafa. I mean, nobody is discussing Federer, are they?

This board is more balanced I think. One of the reasons I came to TF was because the nauseating Nadalism was just too much to stomach. There are some real loons out there.

lol..like auto-pilot ?. btw the banned from here 'auto-pilot' has just been banned again on talktennis as 'tennis commentator'..he/she was previously banned over there at least once before as 'nadalrecord'..so watch out for a sneaky return on here.:s
 

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Carol35 said:
Kirijax said:
Kieran said:
I think it's just this board is obsessed with Rafa. I mean, nobody is discussing Federer, are they?

This board is more balanced I think. One of the reasons I came to TF was because the nauseating Nadalism was just too much to stomach. There are some real loons out there.

Did you mean nauseating Federism and that's the reason why there is a Nadalism? :-/ :s

No.
 

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nehmeth said:
the AntiPusher said:
So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015.

Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.

It's really rare to see someone go after the ball if their opponent was hitting it as big, and as cleanly as Stan was. Very few players actually fight fire with fire (I can think of Blake, Gonzalez and the those type of guys that will just go after the ball no matter what, and I don't think it's a particularly good idea), but it's really hard to beat your opponent at a game he does better than you.

Novak was hitting the ball aggressively enough in the first set (nothing spectacular or anything) but he didn't suddenly just stop being aggressive for no reason. That's the thing in tennis, what happens on one side of the net directly affects what happens on the other. There's a reason in all of my years of watching tennis, when someone has a quasi career best performance in which everything clicks, they look intimidatingly unstoppable.

It's not that Novak couldn't have done anything. But what he could have done is pretty theoretical and not at all easy to do under the barrage that Stan was throwing at him. Players' natural reaction when an "inferior" opponent catches fire is often "let's see how long he can keep this up" which makes enough sense when you think about how many matches they've won by basically weathering the storm.

The surface makes a difference too, as it gives Stan more time to line up his balls and in a way negates Novak's counter-punching (the idea that counter-punching is best suited for clay in today's game is outdated), so he had a real hard time turning rallies around compared to their AO matches. As in, yes Novak has more time to get to Stan's balls, but conversely, Stan has more time to go for huge shots even from miles behind the baseline - something that he does extremely well.

Eventually, this led to some self doubt that ultimately stopped Novak from trying to initiate even when he had the chance to get the ascendency in the rallies, so in that regard, yeah, I guess Boris could say Novak was too tentative, but there's a whole load of factors that led to him reaching that point. That's why I find Boris' assessment simplistic, but understandable as he's going to look at it from his player's perspective and really, it was just a quick answer in an interview - he wasn't about to go into detail as to what transpired on the court.

Plus really, I've always maintained this: when a top 10 player plays his absolute best (in the strictest sense of the word), he cannot be beaten, because one player playing his best means preventing the other from playing his. I don't believe in "both players playing their best tennis at the same time" as I think the two are incompatible and mutually exclusive. There are times, when we're lucky enough, where it comes close to that (Stan and Novak at the AO in 2013 for example, or Fed-Safin), but that's on a rare day. Plus, think of the load of mental and physical factors that have to be going in your favor for you to match your opponent's play when he's close to his best, which makes it all the more amazing when it happens.
 

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DarthFed said:
Rafa can return to 2013 all he wants if Nole plays like he has this year. It won't matter.

I agree it wouldn't make much of a difference. Because if Rafa is playing 2013 levels, Novak will still be lacking a RG title on his resume.
 

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DarthFed said:
He's not that far off the pace of 2011 so far. Still a ways to go (mainly he has to win USO for it to be a comparable year) but he's way beyond the level he was at from 2012-2014.

This is a biased outlook dude. In reality, he's only slightly below his 2011 and slightly above his 2012-2014 level. That small difference in levels makes a huge difference in results. Please don't try to act like Novak was playing like garbage in 2012-2014. He virtually reached 4 major finals in 2013 (the fact that he didn't at RG was a technicality due to Rafa's ranking and draw forcing them to play in the semis). How terrible could he have been? He also reached 3 finals in 2012, but conveniently enough, you never once held it against him for not reaching 4, because the one final he didn't reach was just a result of him running into a "vastly superior grass courter" in the semis of Wimbledon.

I mean if you want to come off like the voice of reason when it comes to regulating exaggerating statements re: competition now vs. competition in 2011, you have to be consistent.

If Novak can be miles off his 2011 level and still reach 3 finals a year in the subsequent two years, then he's either the most talented player in history or the tour needs to look in the mirror. Given that guys like Nadal, Fed and Murray should not be looking in the mirror for the most part, and Novak is not the most talented tennis player in history, then I'll venture a guess and say you're exaggerating.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
nehmeth said:
the AntiPusher said:
So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015.

Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.

It's really rare to see someone go after the ball if their opponent was hitting it as big, and as cleanly as Stan was. Very few players actually fight fire with fire (I can think of Blake, Gonzalez and the those type of guys that will just go after the ball no matter what, and I don't think it's a particularly good idea), but it's really hard to beat your opponent at a game he does better than you.

Novak was hitting the ball aggressively enough in the first set (nothing spectacular or anything) but he didn't suddenly just stop being aggressive for no reason. That's the thing in tennis, what happens on one side of the net directly affects what happens on the other. There's a reason in all of my years of watching tennis, when someone has a quasi career best performance in which everything clicks, they look intimidatingly unstoppable.

It's not that Novak couldn't have done anything. But what he could have done is pretty theoretical and not at all easy to do under the barrage that Stan was throwing at him. Players' natural reaction when an "inferior" opponent catches fire is often "let's see how long he can keep this up" which makes enough sense when you think about how many matches they've won by basically weathering the storm.

The surface makes a difference too, as it gives Stan more time to line up his balls and in a way negates Novak's counter-punching (the idea that counter-punching is best suited for clay in today's game is outdated), so he had a real hard time turning rallies around compared to their AO matches. As in, yes Novak has more time to get to Stan's balls, but conversely, Stan has more time to go for huge shots even from miles behind the baseline - something that he does extremely well.
The big hitters, especially the ones with at least solid backhands, seem to be somewhat difficult match-ups for Novak on clay. Them having more time for hitting aggressive shots is probably a more important advantage than Novak having more time to get balls back.

There's not only the match against Wawrinka as an evidence but also his clay-matches against Berdych, which have all been quite close or the tough match against Cilic at last year's French Open. With Tsonga it's a bit different, as his backhand is a clear weakness and he tries to finish points at the net much more, but even then Tsonga could easily have won their match at the French Open 2012.

Another element is that Wawrinka on a good day can be dangerous from basically any position on the court, whereas Novak is used to having at least one pattern where the opponent can't consistently hurt him (usually backhand crosscourt exchanges). I think that's why Wawrinka is also able to trouble Novak on rather high bouncing hard courts, while Berdych, Tsonga and Cilic are basically hopeless on any HC.

On the lower bouncing HCs in Asia or at the indoor tournaments Novak has beaten all these players mostly very easily since 2012. If I remember correctly Wawrinka stated that it is extremely difficult to attack Novak's deep, low shots especially off the backhand, on those surfaces after their match at the WTF last year. Of the big hitters only Del Potro had multiple close matches with him at that part of the year in 2012 and 2013 but couldn't get a win either.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
DarthFed said:
He's not that far off the pace of 2011 so far. Still a ways to go (mainly he has to win USO for it to be a comparable year) but he's way beyond the level he was at from 2012-2014.

This is a biased outlook dude. In reality, he's only slightly below his 2011 and slightly above his 2012-2014 level. That small difference in levels makes a huge difference in results. Please don't try to act like Novak was playing like garbage in 2012-2014. He virtually reached 4 major finals in 2013 (the fact that he didn't at RG was a technicality due to Rafa's ranking and draw forcing them to play in the semis). How terrible could he have been? He also reached 3 finals in 2012, but conveniently enough, you never once held it against him for not reaching 4, because the one final he didn't reach was just a result of him running into a "vastly superior grass courter" in the semis of Wimbledon.

I mean if you want to come off like the voice of reason when it comes to regulating exaggerating statements re: competition now vs. competition in 2011, you have to be consistent.

If Novak can be miles off his 2011 level and still reach 3 finals a year in the subsequent two years, then he's either the most talented player in history or the tour needs to look in the mirror. Given that guys like Nadal, Fed and Murray should not be looking in the mirror for the most part, and Novak is not the most talented tennis player in history, then I'll venture a guess and say you're exaggerating.

Look at his record throughout the years in question. It is a big difference. And much was correctly made about how bad he played in some GS finals those years (USO 2012 and 2013, Wimby 2013, RG 2014). As for your point about Wimbledon 2012 I've used that semifinal as an example of him playing pretty poorly and surprisingly going away without much of a fight in the 4th set.
 

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the AntiPusher said:
DarthFed said:
Carol35 said:
Talking about Novak....another one that the way he plays, the way that he twists his legs and the ankles, the way that he moves his arms when he hit the ball, do you think that he is going to last too long playing that way? I know the yoga sessions is helping giving him to get that flexibility (the rubber man as Monfils) but it's a miracle that he doesn't get more injuries
If Rafa would recovery his total confidence then he would show one more time that it's not so difficult to beat Novak like he did in 2013. Look Wawrinka, he won RG for the first time thanks to the bad conditions of the best clay player and playing against the player who had more anxiety to win than anyone else. Wimbledon? who played well? Federer? sorry but he is not even the shadow that he was three years ego, he played pretty bad.
We'll see in Montreal, Rafa has a tough draw but his result will depend of him, his opponents? 2015 has been a very odd year, since the AO I haven't seen any of them playing so well, they were too inconsistent and Rafa lost matches that he never ever had to have lost

His style of play is a lot less demanding than Rafa's. And Nole has a lot more offensive shotmaking and a better serve and therefore he usually cuts through players a lot more efficiently than Rafa ever has and it's easy to see why he aged better. He always was going to.

Rafa can return to 2013 all he wants if Nole plays like he has this year. It won't matter.
So you are saying 2008, 2010 , 2013 or any stage of Rafa's career he would not be able to beat present day Djokovic. That's is really putting your admiration for this currently number one ranked tennis player. So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015 but at the same time he is being touted by you as the invincible one.

The 2008 and 2010 Rafa beats Nole easily on clay. Not sure about 2013, probably close to a tossup just like the match that actually took place. But barring a big drop in form I wouldn't bet on Rafa beating Nole on HC this year even if he morphs into 2013 form.
 

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Novak's best year was 2011, maybe because he gave the surprise to the whole world and of course to the players after to comeback to the court with an incredible improvement in three months. In October 2010 he was still the same player that everybody knew, good but beatable, in January he was another player, completely different, very strong and with a visibly confidence. At the present still is not too far (but not too close either) of that year but leaving to one side to Wawrinka I keep saying that he is lucky that the others best players are not doing so well.
Nadal? we know all about this year, he didn't lose against him but against anyone. Muzz? a lime and sand, he can beat to anyone but.....Federer? he is doing well but because his age or whatever no great. And Ferru, Berdych, Tsonga, Monfils, Cilic, Nishi etc etc, sorry but all of them are far to play really well (they are not consistent) therefore to be able to win a MS and GS. Wait, did Cilic win the USO last year? yep, incredible but true :D
 

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nehmeth said:
the AntiPusher said:
So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015.

Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.


Don't agree with Boris : Nadal waited for Federer to miss in 2006, 2007, 2008..and it worked !! Nadal made him derailed but it was Federer who made the mistakes, Nadal had just to cut the flower ...this Nadal is a very clever player indeed !!
 

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isabelle said:
nehmeth said:
the AntiPusher said:
So can you tell me how did Stan beat the brakes off your new 'beloved" at RG 2015.

Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.


Don't agree with Boris : Nadal waited for Federer to miss in 2006, 2007, 2008..and it worked !! Nadal made him derailed but it was Federer who made the mistakes, Nadal had just to cut the flower ...this Nadal is a very clever player indeed !!

Usually the player who make more mistakes is the one who lose but sometimes the mistakes are 'forced' :D
 

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Carol35 said:
isabelle said:
nehmeth said:
Hey Push:

“At the French Open he (Novak) played too tentative, he wanted Stan (Wawrinka) to miss the balls, but you are not going to win a Grand Slam final by waiting for the other guy to miss.” - Boris Becker

link - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/wimbledon-2015-final-brain-game-djokovic-federer

Meanwhile, Stan redlined for pretty much the entire match. Had Novak gone after the ball more, Stan still might have won, but it would have been a helluva lot more interesting final.


Don't agree with Boris : Nadal waited for Federer to miss in 2006, 2007, 2008..and it worked !! Nadal made him derailed but it was Federer who made the mistakes, Nadal had just to cut the flower ...this Nadal is a very clever player indeed !!

Usually the player who make more mistakes is the one who lose but sometimes the mistakes are 'forced' :D


Ok but Nadal knows how to bother Federer on his backhand till he makes the error !! Nalby also did it
 

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isabelle said:
Carol35 said:
isabelle said:
Don't agree with Boris : Nadal waited for Federer to miss in 2006, 2007, 2008..and it worked !! Nadal made him derailed but it was Federer who made the mistakes, Nadal had just to cut the flower ...this Nadal is a very clever player indeed !!

Usually the player who make more mistakes is the one who lose but sometimes the mistakes are 'forced' :D


Ok but Nadal knows how to bother Federer on his backhand till he makes the error !! Nalby also did it

Yep, and that's is a good example about what is a 'forced' error