What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[Federberg]

Capitalism is not perfect but it is not even a comparison how much better it is than anything else that has ever been tried or being tried. The people that scoff at low income jobs are idiots. I am a true capitalist and the only thing I care about is competence. You make a great burger for me, I respect you. I do hope as well that people will realise the importance of a good nurse or a teacher, if they are idiots and did not know this already. Leftists have a huge problem with the word competence of course but in the history of all the ways to govern people , capitalism is the only way that rewards competence. Everything else sucks the soul out of a human being. I have seen it first hand, more than once.

I agree with you mate. The only problem is that right now we seem to have capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. There was a time when companies were allowed to fail. Now it seems to that everything is too big too fail and the incompetent morons who run companies badly get richly rewarded whether they do well or not. Somehow that has to change

 

[britbox]

actually British Airways is the one that I would be least inclined to save. They are effectively subsidised with preferential slots. If they can't survive then fk them. The others are close to independently surviving. But to be honest I don't see the need for a flag carrier. I wouldn't necessarily treat airlines as a special case. I don't have a problem using a foreign airline. I don't see any national interest in maintaining them...

I disagree. You need to retain some core skills in-house. Who is making emergency PPE equipment in the UK right now? Engineering companies like Vauxhall, Ford, and Rolls Royce... among dozens of other manufacturers.

There has to be some level of local supply chain. We've even got a Rum company making Hand Sanitizer here in Oz. One lesson to learn from this, is never to let your country get so exposed to cheap foreign supply chains.

 

[Federberg]

I disagree. You need to retain some core skills in-house. Who is making emergency PPE equipment in the UK right now? Engineering companies like Vauxhall, Ford, and Rolls Royce... among dozens of other manufacturers.

There has to be some level of local supply chain. We've even got a Rum company making Hand Sanitizer here in Oz. One lesson to learn from this, is never to let your country get so exposed to cheap foreign supply chains.

we agree to disagree then. Truly independent airline companies would make far more sense to me. Trans-national entities that capture true efficiencies of scale. By the way you kind of make my point, all of those manufacturers you mentioned are foreign owned. The core skills are vested in the employees...

 

[britbox]

I agree with you mate. The only problem is that right now we seem to have capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. There was a time when companies were allowed to fail. Now it seems to that everything is too big too fail and the incompetent morons who run companies badly get richly rewarded whether they do well or not. Somehow that has to change

Well, that's true also. This should not be a binary choice between capitalism and socialism. Neither which I like and neither of them work. Mixed market economy all the way... it's just getting the balancing act right.

 

[britbox]

we agree to disagree then. Truly independent airline companies would make far more sense to me. Trans-national entities that capture true efficiencies of scale. By the way you kind of make my point, all of those manufacturers you mentioned are foreign owned. The core skills are vested in the employees...

Yes, but the skills are in the country. Ownership is less of a factor. For instance, when I moved to Oz, 8 years ago, there were four major mass-producing car companies based in the country. Now, there are none. Sorry, that's exposure. You need one, at the very least.

 

[Federberg]

Yes, but the skills are in the country. Ownership is less of a factor. For instance, when I moved to Oz, 8 years ago, there were four major mass-producing car companies based in the country. Now, there are none. Sorry, that's exposure. You need one, at the very least.

just because you don't have ownership in the country doesn't mean that you don't have airlines operating in it. Thank you for using cars as an example, they are the perfect one. I see no reason why airline companies would decamp from the UK. We have one of the largest airports in the world here, and Britain is one of the top countries in the aeronautical industry. They would be here in force. In fact I wager if the silly regulations are done away with loads more would come here. It's the perfect location for them. It's about comparative advantage.

As for Australia and it's car industry disappearing that makes total sense. I see no compelling advantage for car manufacture in Australia, quite the opposite, so it makes sense they went the way of the dodo. If you believe in capitalism then...

 

[britbox]

just because you don't have ownership in the country doesn't mean that you don't have airlines operating in it. Thank you for using cars as an example, they are the perfect one. I see no reason why airline companies would decamp from the UK. We have one of the largest airports in the world here, and Britain is one of the top countries in the aeronautical industry. They would be here in force. In fact I wager if the silly regulations are done away with loads more would come here. It's the perfect location for them. It's about comparative advantage.

As for Australia and it's car industry disappearing that makes total sense. I see no compelling advantage for car manufacture in Australia, quite the opposite, so it makes sense they went the way of the dodo. If you believe in capitalism then...

I think you totally missed the point. I'm not saying airlines won't be flying to the UK. I'm saying you need to retain some level of internal capacity you can tap into when needed. Or you get exposed.

Who does the British Government call on when it needs stragglers bringing back in 2 weeks? Emirates? Think again.

As for the Australian car industry... you lose the skills, you lose the expertise, you lose the capacity... Not good IMO. It's actually great to see manufacturing companies stepping up to the plate in this time of crisis. Following your model, few would even exist.

As for capitalism equating to competency... is this some sort of joke? Did 2008 pass me by in a dream? If capitalism played by its own rules, the entire globe would have been fucked for years. No, every man and his dog was charged with bailing it out...new rules, new bullshit. Risk and Reward without the Risk... house money.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

True capitalism would be you being rushed to hospital with a heart attack and the surgeon telling you he can fix you up, but it'll cost you $250,000. He'll be competent though.

That's where the " not perfect " part comes in. People should be able to shop for the best healthcare but for the ones who are not able to, a safety net is necessary. That could be your community, your church or mosque, your hospital itself, OR the government.

 

[britbox]

That's where the " not perfect " part comes in. People should be able to shop for the best healthcare but for the ones who are not able to, a safety net is necessary. That could be your community, your church or mosque, your hospital itself, OR the government.

I doubt I'd be phoning a mosque for heart surgery to be honest.

 

[Federberg]

I think you totally missed the point. I'm not saying airlines won't be flying to the UK. I'm saying you need to retain some level of internal capacity you can tap into when needed. Or you get exposed.

Who does the British Government call on when it needs stragglers bringing back in 2 weeks? Emirates? Think again.

As for the Australian car industry... you lose the skills, you lose the expertise, you lose the capacity... Not good IMO. It's actually great to see manufacturing companies stepping up to the plate in this time of crisis. Following your model, few would even exist.

As for capitalism equating to competency... is this some sort of joke? Did 2008 pass me by in a dream? If capitalism played by its own rules, the entire globe would have been fucked for years. No, every man and his dog was charged with bailing it out...new rules, new bullshit. Risk and Reward without the Risk... house money.

perhaps you're missing my point? Ownership doesn't confer skill retention. A presence in the country is more likely to do that. I do not believe that airlines not being British owned would mean that they wouldn't have major operations in the UK. Companies make decisions about where they have significant operations based on what benefits accrue to them there. I believe that airlines have many good reasons to maintain and in fact increase their presence in the UK for a multitude of reasons. The foreign car companies you lauded still act for the good of Britain because it makes good business sense for them to do so.

As for the Australian car industry, there was no compelling reason for them to exist there. This is capitalism mate. Industries grow where they have a comparative advantage, and decline where they don't

Not sure what your point about competency is. Please elaborate. 2008 was not about capitalism, it was the inevitable consequence of the decline of true capitalism. Eliminating Glass–Steagall and the onset of fiat currency dominance made it almost inevitable. I don't know how many times I've said this on this forum, so struggling to see where you're coming from...

 

[Federberg]

That's where the " not perfect " part comes in. People should be able to shop for the best healthcare but for the ones who are not able to, a safety net is necessary. That could be your community, your church or mosque, your hospital itself, OR the government.

healthcare has never fit properly into the free market concept because the profit seeking objective inevitably clashes with the healthcare objective of preserving life. Even in the ultimate capitalist system there are areas where the market fails. But that's ok, government should step in there, and does.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I think you totally missed the point. I'm not saying airlines won't be flying to the UK. I'm saying you need to retain some level of internal capacity you can tap into when needed. Or you get exposed.

Who does the British Government call on when it needs stragglers bringing back in 2 weeks? Emirates? Think again.

As for the Australian car industry... you lose the skills, you lose the expertise, you lose the capacity... Not good IMO. It's actually great to see manufacturing companies stepping up to the plate in this time of crisis. Following your model, few would even exist.

As for capitalism equating to competency... is this some sort of joke? Did 2008 pass me by in a dream? If capitalism played by its own rules, the entire globe would have been fucked for years. No, every man and his dog was charged with bailing it out...new rules, new bullshit. Risk and Reward without the Risk... house money.

You are misunderstanding. I am not talking about incompetent leaders and policies. That exists everywhere, every age, every time. I am talking about individuals. Only in a capitalist society you are allowed rise above others if you are competent and offering something to people that they want to buy voluntarily. Your services or goods. Your creativity.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

healthcare has never fit properly into the free market concept because the profit seeking objective inevitably clashes with the healthcare objective of preserving life. Even in the ultimate capitalist system there are areas where the market fails. But that's ok, government should step in there, and does.

I do not disagree. Shortcomings in the healthcare system is too obvious. If you are a baker and you make great bread, people will buy your product. If you are a great insurance company that makes a lot of profit, that means you are denying someone healthcare. Does not add up.

 

[mrzz]

2008 was not about capitalism, it was the inevitable consequence of the decline of true capitalism

You know it is more complicated than that. There was a great deal of corruption to guarantee the material absence of collateral (which has nothing to do with capitalism itself), incompetence in risk assessing (something that "true" capitalism should punish), and, as you mentioned indirectly, harmful influences of capital interests over legislation (which is a fail of the state, not of the system). You probably agree with all that. Maybe you can blame 2008 solely in capitalism itself if you assume that self-regulation is inherent to capitalism, but honestly that would be very far-reaching to me - self-regulation is almost anti-capitalist in my view.

In other words, let them go broke. (and with that I know you agree). Change "true" for "naive" in your sentence above and then we are on the same boat.

 

[Federberg]

You know it is more complicated than that. There was a great deal of corruption to guarantee the material absence of collateral (which has nothing to do with capitalism itself), incompetence in risk assessing (something that "true" capitalism should punish), and, as you mentioned indirectly, harmful influences of capital interests over legislation (which is a fail of the state, not of the system). You probably agree with all that. Maybe you can blame 2008 solely in capitalism itself if you assume that self-regulation is inherent to capitalism, but honestly that would be very far-reaching to me - self-regulation is almost anti-capitalist in my view.

In other words, let them go broke. (and with that I know you agree). Change "true" for "naive" in your sentence above and then we are on the same boat.

obviously a whole treatise could be written about what went wrong in 2008. Whether it was corruption or incompetent risk assessment you could call it either way. I say that because what do you call a regulator who knows he is not competent enough to assess systemic risk? I would say they're corrupt if they don't acknowledge that, and restrict activities accordingly But yes I pretty much agree with your points. And yes I agree that self regulation is futile. The rule of law is vital to the functioning of the capitalist system. But it's also important to realise that legislators should be competent enough to write appropriate laws

 

[calitennis127]

I mean, this whole pandemic shows how random, arbitrary, and poorly structured the world is. The wholes of capitalism are on full display, the same people who scoffed at low income jobs ("making burgers for a living is not a job," "putting stuff in a plastic bag is not a job") have to eat shit, nurses, teachers, and every vocation/profession that covers are basic and essential needs has risen in importance. Meanwhile, the inflated sense of self importance in the corporate world is taking a battering.

Total stupidity and ignorance of history. Free-market economics have done more to raise the international standard of living as well as life expectancy than any economic system.

Unfortunately, society won't learn. We'll talk about it for a while once it's all over before the rich and those in power hijack the conversation and like morons we all move on and go back to the status-quo as nurses and teachers continue to make peanuts for a living.

Teachers don't make "peanuts." They are generally very well-compensated. In America most high school teachers make at least $60,000 per year, which is perfectly reasonable and more than most of them deserve, while college professors and administrators get outlandish salaries they don't deserve, like the piece of shit in the video below.

Here's a quick question for you Broken: do you want to know why you are such a dumbass? It's because education systems all over the world are increasingly run by overpaid scum like the white female loser in the video below. This woman is a dean at NYU and she sent this video as an attachment to an email informing NYU students that they won't be reimbursed for their spring semester tuition. It's turds like this that result in misinformed turds like you. It's a never-ending chain reaction. One after another after another.

This is a great example of why I am unabashedly racist against white leftists. Their ideas are utterly stupid and then when they try to be cool they just come off as white dorks. Give me a Latina any day over this old, white, gray-haired, wannabe intellectual harridan. No rhythm whatsoever, less style than a two-color quilt:

 

[britbox]

You are misunderstanding. I am not talking about incompetent leaders and policies. That exists everywhere, every age, every time. I am talking about individuals. Only in a capitalist society you are allowed rise above others if you are competent and offering something to people that they want to buy voluntarily. Your services or goods. Your creativity.

At that level, I agree with you.

 

[britbox]

perhaps you're missing my point? Ownership doesn't confer skill retention. A presence in the country is more likely to do that. I do not believe that airlines not being British owned would mean that they wouldn't have major operations in the UK. Companies make decisions about where they have significant operations based on what benefits accrue to them there. I believe that airlines have many good reasons to maintain and in fact increase their presence in the UK for a multitude of reasons. The foreign car companies you lauded still act for the good of Britain because it makes good business sense for them to do so.

As for the Australian car industry, there was no compelling reason for them to exist there. This is capitalism mate. Industries grow where they have a comparative advantage, and decline where they don't

Not sure what your point about competency is. Please elaborate. 2008 was not about capitalism, it was the inevitable consequence of the decline of true capitalism. Eliminating Glass–Steagall and the onset of fiat currency dominance made it almost inevitable. I don't know how many times I've said this on this forum, so struggling to see where you're coming from...

Yep, and I disagree with you that letting capitalism roam unbridled is good. You need checks and balances. Otherwise, the benefits of capitalism are lost for the greater good.

Third point - sorry, that should have been directed at Murat, not you.

 

[mrzz]

Wherever you are, if you think you have a bad leader, just think of Brazil. Now we have just been treated with pearls such as "Brazilians can swim on sewage and don't get sick, so they can resist a little virus" (no, I am not kidding, the president said this today, and he was not joking, that was actually part of his argument).

Well, in the things-that-can-only-happen-in-Brazil department, the guy is launching a national campaign for people to break the quarantines in their home states, and go back to work. But here is the crazy thing, the official government position, stated by the minister of health, is for social distancing and self-quarantine. The vice-president ensures that isolation is the government position. The rest of the cabinet, the leaders of both parliament houses. The absolute majority of state governors. But the guy goes on Twitter (the sucker is not even original) and calls his followers to get to the streets.

(remember, I am one that thinks that other solutions could have been implemented worldwide. But notice the verb tense: could. Now is too late, we are all committed to one plan. Anyway, in Brazil nothing short of quarantine and isolation works, for a multitude of reasons).

But there is light in the end of the tunnel. It is good to know that there is still intelligent life here. A local doctor, the researcher who found the link between the Zyka virus and microcephaly, came up with a brilliant idea (a Brazilian doctor, named Adriana Melo, from our northeast region, by far the poorest region of the country). She posted:

"The ones who support the end of isolation policies should sign a document giving up ventilators in case they are hospitalized with Covid-19."

So, we might have the worst president of all times, but we also came up with the undisputed best idea to deal with the pandemic power struggles.

 

[mrzz]

Her exact quote is (my translation):

“I suggest to anyone who is in favor of ending social isolation and opening back business, to sign a term saying that you give up a ventilator when we, health professionals, have to choose who will live or die."