What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

Moxie

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^ I don't think that describes it well. Ukraine President Yanukovych turned out to be raping his country of resources and he was overthrown by a populist uprising. In that sense, the Ukraine did decide for itself. The problem is the Crimea, which has leanings towards Russia, although it is part of the Ukraine. Russia went in militarily, and Putin IS a big bully. However, this is where I think your references to Bosnia, Croatia, etc. are germane. IF the Crimea would prefer to be allied with Russia, they should be within their rights to decide. Though I also take Kieran's point that, if they've got the Russian Bear standing on their head, can anyone be sure that it's exactly their choice?
 

britbox

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Don't get me wrong - I think Yanukovych was a poor leader of the Ukraine, but the scale of the embezzlements came to light after he fled not before. The populist uprising (interesting terminology - some might call it mob rioting) was based on him choosing not to sign a deal with the EU. He chose a far better deal offered by the Russians.

The framework of the deal that the "new" government sign with the EU/IMF will be interesting... as the original one on the table scaled back what the populace would receive in all sorts of benefits including winter heating allowances. Also, don't forget the Russians wanted three way talks with EU on Ukraine's trading block - they were happy for the Ukraine to have a deals with both themselves and the EU. It was the EU who stated that the Ukraine could not join both trading blocks.

Yeah, Putin is bully, but at least he's an overt one (in terms of foreign policy, I'd hazard a guess the United States interferes in more sovereign states and caused far more bloodshed) Also, the Crimea was always historically part of the Russian Empire, and the Ukraine was never really a sovereign state with these boundaries until 91 (it was always carved up between various European and Russian empires). The majority of people in the Crimea are Russians... if they want to be part of Russia then what's the problem?
 

TsarMatt

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britbox said:
^ There lies the problem guys... "Back off Let the Ukraine decide for herself". The democratically elected government was deciding for itself and it was overthrown in a coup. I think what you mean is "Let the Ukraine decide for itself as long as it comes up with the answer you want to hear..."

Seem to recall they did that with the Irish referendums on the EU not so long ago...

Nah, I don't think you get it. Why should Russia and the West intervene? I don't support the illegal takeover of the Ukrainian government, but it's fundamentally their problem and they should be the ones to work it out. Putin needs to back the hell off, as does the West's laughable rhetoric. Ukraine is no way near at a failed state level yet, and, if it did, then we leave it to the international political institutions, not Russia or the US. That is my point.

Putin isn't helping for humanitarian reasons and the West sure as hell don't care about "sovereignty and territorial integrity". They're both exploiting this crisis to advance their own political agendas.
 

Kieran

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Actually, the Ukraine government was voted in by Yanukovych's own party. Yeah, the EU keep coming with their referendums, but there's a moral difference between the EU and the USSR, and also between that and the current situation in Crimea. We didn't vote at gunpoint. Regardless of how often they came, we had free choice in the polls.

Crimea has been invaded by a foreign power, and suddenly they're having a referendum on March 16! That's long enough to debate the issues, right?

I think this will end with Crimea as part of Russia. And that whole region essentially afraid to move in case they provoke one of Putin's attempts to liberate them...
 

britbox

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I agree that the Crimea will be under Russian control one way or another.

This is a good read:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26447674
 

Kieran

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Thanks Britbox, that's a good insight into what's going on. It can be scanned as Putin's paranoia or pragmatism, depending on which way you see the man...
 

britbox

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Kieran said:
Thanks Britbox, that's a good insight into what's going on. It can be scanned as Putin's paranoia or pragmatism, depending on which way you see the man...

Probably both...
 

TsarMatt

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Kieran said:
Thanks Britbox, that's a good insight into what's going on. It can be scanned as Putin's paranoia or pragmatism, depending on which way you see the man...

I don't think it's paranoia. NATO have been setting up anti-defence missile systems all across Eastern European borders, pointing directly at Russia. Putin understands that if the West captures Ukraine, it'll do the same.

It's very pragmatic, but that doesn't mean it's right.
 

Kieran

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They vote today in Crimea, policed by Putin's paid for militia, after terrestrial TV had been replaced by propaganda broadcasts from Moscow. The choice on the ballot paper? To join Russia immediately, or to take independence but with the "right" to merge with Russia.

A good clean vote, then...
 

tented

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"Putin's Pique"

In 1990, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn emerged from his isolation in Cavendish, Vermont, and issued a vatic manifesto entitled “How to Revitalize Russia.” Published at great length in Komsomolskaya Pravda, it was a document out of time, written in a prophetic nineteenth-century voice, with archaic diction and priestly cadences. Solzhenitsyn, a heroic dissident, was always at the nationalist end of the spectrum, but he was not calling for some sort of tsarist revival and imperial maintenance. Rather, he endorsed a hyper-local, Swiss-style democratic politics, a transition to private property, and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. “We do not have the energy to run an Empire!” he wrote. “Let us shrug it off. It is crushing us, it is draining us, and it is accelerating our demise.” Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, along with the Caucasian republics, were to make their own way. But on the question of Ukraine he had a different view. Russia must be at the center of a “Russian union,” he declared, and Ukraine was integral to it.

At the time, Ukrainian nationalists, particularly in the western part of the republic, were joining the Baltic states in their bold drive for independence, and had formed a “people’s movement” called Rukh. Leonid Kravchuk, a dreary Communist Party hack who had previously shown nothing but indifference to Ukrainian nationalism, won the Presidency, in 1991, by deciding to stand with Rukh. This was a trend that Solzhenitsyn, in the woods of New England, and so many Russians throughout the Soviet Union, could not easily abide. It defied their sense of history. To them, Ukraine was no more a real nation than Glubbdubdrib or Freedonia. Vladimir Putin, a former officer of the K.G.B., was the first post-Soviet leader to deliver a state prize to Solzhenitsyn, who had spent a lifetime in a death struggle with the K.G.B.; a large part of their common ground was a rough notion of what Russia encompassed. As Putin told the second President Bush, “You have to understand, George. Ukraine is not even a country.”

Solzhenitsyn, one of the great truth-tellers of the twentieth century, harbored an exceedingly benign view of one of the more ominous figures of the twenty-first. Putin is an unabashed authoritarian. He masks the Pharaonic enrichment of his political circle by projecting an austere image of shrewd bluster and manly bravado. He is also the sum of his resentments. His outrage over the uprising in Kiev, like his subsequent decision to invade Crimea, is stoked by a powerful suspicion of Western motives and hypocrisies. Putin absorbed the eastward expansion of NATO; attacks on his abysmal record on human rights and civil society; and the “color” revolutions in Tbilisi and Kiev—even the revolts in Tehran, Tunis, Cairo, Manama, and Damascus—as intimations of his own political mortality. He sees everything from the National Endowment for Democracy to the American Embassy in Moscow as an outpost of a plot against him. And the U.S. clearly does want to curb his influence; we can’t pretend that he’s entirely crazy to think so. The Olympics was his multi-billion-ruble reassertion of Russian power on the level of pop culture; the invasion of Crimea is a reassertion of Russian power in the harsher currency of arms and intimidation.

The invasion demands condemnation: Ukraine is a sovereign state; it has been for a generation. Its cultural, linguistic, and historical affinities with Russia do not make it a Russian vassal. Putin’s pretext—that frightened masses of Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine were under physical threat from “fascists,” and were crying out for “fraternal assistance” from Russia—is a fiction generated by his intelligence services and propagated by Russian state television. (Pro-Russian Cossacks in Crimea are no less anti-Semitic than the racists among the Ukrainian nationalists—something you are not likely to learn on Channel One, in Moscow.)

Putin’s aggression took Western leaders—especially Barack Obama and Angela Merkel—too much by surprise, but they have acted since with clarity and prudence. The decision to forgo martial threats and to concentrate on strong economic sanctions and diplomatic exertions is, in a world of radically limited options, wise. But not all those most directly involved in this crisis evince an understanding of the complicated politics of Ukraine. It is worth remembering that, in the back-and-forth of Ukrainian governments since 1991, both the pro-Russian leaders, like Viktor Yanukovych, and the pro-Europeans, like Yulia Tymoshenko, have been brazen thieves, enriching themselves at fantastical rates. Both sides have played one half of the country against the other. And the fact that the protests in Kiev were not, as Moscow claims, dominated by fascists and ultra-nationalists does not mean that such elements are absent from the scene. Ukraine has yet to develop the politicians that its fragile condition and its dire economy demand. In December, when John McCain spoke to demonstrators in Kiev’s Independence Square, he stood side by side with Oleh Tyahnybok, who was once expelled from his parliamentary faction after demanding battle with “the Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” Perhaps this was bad advance work from team McCain—much like the advance work on the Sarah Palin nomination—but it did manage to fuel Moscow’s bonfire of suspicion.

McCain’s allies in the Senate have shared his propensity for incautious grandstanding. Lindsey Graham, of South Carolina, who is facing a Republican primary challenge from his right, says that the invasion of Crimea “started with Benghazi.” He tweeted, “When you kill Americans and nobody pays a price, you invite this type of aggression.” And McCain, who alternates with Graham as the voice of the G.O.P. in foreign affairs, told AIPAC that the invasion was “the ultimate result of a feckless foreign policy where nobody believes in America’s strength anymore.” Soon Hillary Clinton, who should know better, pitched in with an unhelpful analogy to Hitler.

Right now, Putin retains his familiar strut and disdain. His opposition at home is on tenterhooks, fearing a comprehensive crackdown, and the West, which dreams of his coöperation in Syria and Iran, is reluctant to press him too hard. But it may be that his adventure in Crimea—and not the American Embassy in Moscow—will undo him. Last month, a Kremlin-sponsored poll showed that seventy-three per cent of Russians opposed interfering in the political confrontations in Kiev. The Kremlin has proved since that it has the means, and the media, to gin up support for Putin’s folly—but that won’t last indefinitely.

In other words, Putin risks alienating himself not only from the West and Ukraine, to say nothing of the global economy he dearly wants to join, but from Russia itself. His dreams of staying in office until 2024, of being the most formidable state-builder in Russian history since Peter the Great, may yet founder on the peninsula of Crimea.
 

Kieran

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Very interesting, T. I've seen other articles suggest the same, that Putin has made a fatal mistake. Let's hope it's so...
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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1972Murat said:
Almost %95 of Crimeans voted to join Russia...That is a lot of people...What now?

increasing political and economic isolation for Russia..it is an illegal vote that is not recognised by the rest of the planet..

other parts of eastern crimea might revolt and/or putin sends his army in to further invade Ukraine..civil war ? in Ukraine, and/or war between Ukraine and Russia.
 

TsarMatt

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Everyone understands why Putin wants the Crimea so bad. The West will let him have it, only at the expense of increasing isolation, imposing sanctions, and fragmented relations with Europe and the US. I mean, you can sort of see Putin's viewpoint here:

Ukraine is overtaken by a pro-Western, pro-EU government. In the likelihood of this "revolution" succeeding, Russia could lose the Ukraine alongside the Crimea which hosts its only naval fleet on the Black Sea peninsula. The Black Sea then extends into the Mediterranean Sea where Russia has only the one port in Tarsus, Syria. If Russia lose alliance with Ukraine, the Crimea goes with it. This would be wholly detrimental to both Russia's military and geopolitical strength in the region.

Do I agree with what Putin is doing? No. But you can see precisely why. It's all in the name of maintaing - what's left of - Russia's little political influence in post-USSR Europe. Also, NATO has been expanding its presence into Eastern Europe, setting up various anti-defence missile systems on its borders, pointing directly at Russia - essentially, creating a "shield". If the EU gets Ukraine, you can be sure NATO would expand, further suppressing Russia and making it vunlerable.

As I have said numerous times, the people of Ukraine are not important here. They are merely a proxy country for a Cold War that never ended.

Putin shouldn't have invaded, although I can see the despotic and twisted logic behind it. Kerry offering $1 billion in foreign aid to - what is - a 'questionable' government in Ukraine is messed up, too.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Kieran said:
Not if the vote is illegal...

That part is clear brother...the problem is if you look past that, you see problems. Like, if you had a "legal" referendum , the results would be pretty much the same. Can you look past that? How do you explain to your own people that the will of the people is actually negotiable?


Don't think for a second I am condoning what Russia is doing. I am just pointing to a fact that might make some people uncomfortable.
 

Kieran

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A legal referendum would surely include the option to stay as part of Ukraine. This one has two options, both of which lead to the same result. In other words, it actually has only one option.

Or none, when you think about it...
 

Murat Baslamisli

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I know it is apples and oranges, but I am reminded of the Quebec referendums that take place every now and then, regarding if they should separate from Canada or not. It kinda pisses me off when I am not asked if I am willing to part with a substantial part of my country. I am in Ontario, but Quebec is a part of my country. Do I have to live in Quebec to have a say in this matter? I guess I do...doesn't fell right though.
 

Kieran

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Why do Quebec want to separate? I mean, there's no ethnicity issue, is there? Scotland is having a referendum this year that might finally end the United Kingdom, which will be strange (although it's unlikely to succeed).

Still, in these polls, the voters have a choice, unlike Crimea...