What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[Kieran]

I'm really not sure why you are batting for these guys brother - it flies in the face of any form of democractic self-determination.

You're batting for PUTIN! :lolz: :laydownlaughing "Democratic self-determination?" :laydownlaughing

I'm not batting for anyone but that Putin doesn't invade countries that aren't his. Why you think it's cool for a tyrant like him to roll into a sovereign state with impunity, well, you haven't yet explained. Not in a way that justifies it any differently to the way the old USSR used justify helping itself - sorry, "helping its neighbours."

Putin going into Crimea isn't solving this one. It's making it worse. And I don't know why you think Yanokovych is still legitimate leader of Ukraine: his own party said he has left office and they support the new government, which was elected in parliament.

Now, you'll call that a coup, and condemn it - so what is Putin doing in Crimea? An exercise in democracy? :s

PS - Lithunia, Latvia, Estonia etc... won't ever have declared a NATO emergency without consulting the Americans first. More than likely they were directed to do it in the first place.

Where did you get this information from, that the Americans are behind it? And why do you think so little of the Baltic states, that you think they can't make up their own minds, based upon their own experience?

If the Crimeans and Crimean economy are better served by Russia then leave them to it. It was an autonomous authority and the people there align themselves with the Russia. So be it.

Was is the crucial word there. And now it isn't... :nono

 

[britbox]

I'm not batting for Putin... just seeing it from the other side.

Define "invasion" brother.... 16,000 troops in a region where you have a signed agreement to say you are allowed 25,000.

I'm well aware Putin is like an anaconda in the east, slowly squeezing and putting things in place to serve the Russian nation. Pretty much like the west does in a bunch of countries falling under a "sphere of influence". I'm also aware Queensbury rules aren't the order of the day.

But he isn't doing anything the west haven't done (far less in this particular case) ...and international law is only referenced when somebody else breaks it.

Has it occurred to you that the Crimea is a lot better off under Russia than a Ukranian administration? Why would you want to force them to take a different path?

As for the latter... be serious.

 

[Kieran]

Define "invasion" brother....

Taking land which isn't yours, by force.

Has it occurred to you that the Crimea is a lot better off under Russia than a Ukranian administration? Why would you want to force them to take a different path?

As for the latter... be serious.

Actually, force is being used by Putin and the "different path" is to leave where they already are, which is as part of Ukraine. Ukraine's sovereignty isn't meant to be up for grabs to the highest bidder. Especially not one which historically uses its neighbours as feeding grounds. Whether they'd be "better off" under Putin is moot: Crimea is part of Ukraine, and Putin himself adhered to this reality until recently...

 

[britbox]

PS - Lithunia, Latvia, Estonia etc... won't ever have declared a NATO emergency without consulting the Americans first. More than likely they were directed to do it in the first place.

Where did you get this information from, that the Americans are behind it? And why do you think so little of the Baltic states, that you think they can't make up their own minds, based upon their own experience?

Please, please, please... don't tell me a Baltic state would issue a public NATO statement without seeking private approval from the NATO hierarchy in advance... even if you think they weren't told to do it.

 

[britbox]

Define "invasion" brother....

Taking land which isn't yours, by force.

So would that apply to the current ruling government in the Ukraine?

 

[Kieran]

PS - Lithunia, Latvia, Estonia etc... won't ever have declared a NATO emergency without consulting the Americans first. More than likely they were directed to do it in the first place.

Where did you get this information from, that the Americans are behind it? And why do you think so little of the Baltic states, that you think they can't make up their own minds, based upon their own experience?

Please, please, please... don't tell me a Baltic state would issue a public NATO statement without seeking private approval from the NATO hierarchy in advance... even if you think they weren't told to do it.

Why not? The Baltic states are anxious about this. I know for a fact that joining the EU was a huge thing in Lithuania. A lot of people didn't want to replace one autocratic tyranny with another, but they felt they'd be safer if they aligned themselves more closely with the west.

These countries know Putin. They know Russia. They lived in the USSR. You should give them more credit for being able to think for themselves...

 

[britbox]

Out of interest K, do you think Croatia, Bosnia etc... should have been recognized as independent states?

 

[Kieran]

Define "invasion" brother....

Taking land which isn't yours, by force.

So would that apply to the current ruling government in the Ukraine?

Not at all. They're Ukrainians, elected by their own parliament to govern their own land, and voted in even by Yanukovych's party. You think they have less say in their own affairs than the bully next door?

I humbly disagree...

 

[britbox]

PS - Lithunia, Latvia, Estonia etc... won't ever have declared a NATO emergency without consulting the Americans first. More than likely they were directed to do it in the first place.

Where did you get this information from, that the Americans are behind it? And why do you think so little of the Baltic states, that you think they can't make up their own minds, based upon their own experience?

Please, please, please... don't tell me a Baltic state would issue a public NATO statement without seeking private approval from the NATO hierarchy in advance... even if you think they weren't told to do it.

Why not? The Baltic states are anxious about this. I know for a fact that joining the EU was a huge thing in Lithuania. A lot of people didn't want to replace one autocratic tyranny with another, but they felt they'd be safer if they aligned themselves more closely with the west.

These countries know Putin. They know Russia. They lived in the USSR. You should give them more credit for being able to think for themselves...

I'm sure they can think for themselves... As can the Crimeans... they know the Ukraine, they lived in the Ukraine... you should give them more credit for being able to think for themselves...

 

[Kieran]

Out of interest K, do you think Croatia, Bosnia etc... should have been recognized as independent states?

I have no strong opinion either way, but would like to know why you ask this...

 

[Kieran]

I'm sure they can think for themselves... As can the Crimeans... they know the Ukraine, they lived in the Ukraine... you should give them more credit for being able to think for themselves...

Let Russia release its grip, and let Ukraine determine for itself what it wants to do. And allow Crimea breathing space to decide this - if they want to, which isn't clear - without a Russian rifle at their back, which is the old-school way of deciding things in the region. That old way should have been consigned to history, along with the USSR...

 

[britbox]

If you have such a strong opinion about the events in the Ukraine then I'm surprised you have no opinion on the breakup of Yugoslavia.

 

[Kieran]

If you have such a strong opinion about the events in the Ukraine then I'm surprised you have no opinion on the breakup of Yugoslavia.

I'm still at a loss as to where you're going with this...

 

[britbox]

^ More tomorrow. It's late Friday night and I'm killing a few Stellas... don't want to write stuff that I'll look at in the morning and think "who's that clown"... before realizing it was me.

 

[Kieran]

You might have to ban yourself!

No worries, buddy, enjoy yourself! I know where you're coming from, just disagree. One thing I wish though: I'd love one of them Stella's!!

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

i used to love sella artois, either from a can or down the boozer. erm..we really are off topic now.

 

[Kieran]

No, the topic is, "what's going on in the world?"

Perfectly on topic!

Now, I'm gonna have a bottle of Budvar with the scran...

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

so it is.., was thinking this of the crimea/Russia/Ukraine gloom & doom thread. that's just the way its turned out..so far.

 

[TsarMatt]

I'm sure they can think for themselves... As can the Crimeans... they know the Ukraine, they lived in the Ukraine... you should give them more credit for being able to think for themselves...

Let Russia release its grip, and let Ukraine determine for itself what it wants to do. And allow Crimea breathing space to decide this - if they want to, which isn't clear - without a Russian rifle at their back, which is the old-school way of deciding things in the region. That old way should have been consigned to history, along with the USSR...

Well said, man. Both Russia and the West should back off, but that won't happen. I think this guy sums it up moderately well, even though I find myself disagreeing with him a lot:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8PgTD_t3tc[/video]

 

[britbox]

^ There lies the problem guys... "Back off Let the Ukraine decide for herself". The democratically elected government was deciding for itself and it was overthrown in a coup. I think what you mean is "Let the Ukraine decide for itself as long as it comes up with the answer you want to hear..."

Seem to recall they did that with the Irish referendums on the EU not so long ago...