What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[britbox]

I'm willing to acknowledge that the West aren't saints in this, although I would dispute your interpretation of Ukrainian history. But my question to you would be why you seem to want to give a pass to Russia and China? I don't get it

I don't give a pass to either of them. I asked a question if the people grumbling about it are prepared to pack the bags and go and risk their lives in the Ukraine. I'm still waiting on the answer.

 

[britbox]

George Galloway is an unlikely bed fellow, but he makes a lot of sense here.

 

[Federberg]

I don't give a pass to either of them. I asked a question if the people grumbling about it are prepared to pack the bags and go and risk their lives in the Ukraine. I'm still waiting on the answer.

The question makes no sense mate. There is no war of aggression on the part of the West or even Ukraine. This is meeting Russian aggression plain and simple.

 

[britbox]

The question makes no sense mate. There is no war of aggression on the part of the West or even Ukraine. This is meeting Russian aggression plain and simple.

That is where we'll have to disagree. Go back to 2014 and study the change of powers in the Ukraine and the circumstances that preceded it.

 

[Kieran]

George Galloway is an unlikely bed fellow, but he makes a lot of sense here.

Oh man, George Galloway? Seriously?

 

[britbox]

Oh man, George Galloway? Seriously?

The speed of your response indicates that you never watched the video.

 

[Kieran]

The speed of your response indicates that you never watched the video.

George Galloway hates the west. I’ve heard all his iterations of that hatred. I love his accent though and he’s fairly melodramatic for a demagogue…

 

[Federberg]

That is where we'll have to disagree. Go back to 2014 and study the change of powers in the Ukraine and the circumstances that preceded it.

I don't buy the 'CIA engineered a coup' conspiracy. Never have. What I do recall, was that Russia was heavily involved in Ukrainian politics. This is the problem with Russia. They failed at democracy (Gorbachev, Yeltsin a massive collapse in the wealth of the Russian people and crippling corruption), and I fully understand that the Russian population is probably no longer not that interested in democracy any longer. Putin and his siloviki created a kleptocracy that in times of high commodity prices served the Russian population well enough. But the flip side of that was that Putin has never felt secure about democracies flourishing on his doorstep. He dominated Ukrainian politics by using the pipelines as an extortive tool and also by co-opting Ukrainian politicians and instituting a culture of corruption there. The maidan was in my view a genuine aspiration of the Ukrainian people to be a normal democracy and a part of the EU. The EU, not NATO. But to Russian sensibilities the EU and NATO are synonymous. The EU grossly miscalculated by extending pre-entry grants to Ukraine - and by the way, I very much doubt that was encouraged by the US. And that led to the Ukrainian government to be put. under pressure by Russia to go against the will of the people. Hence the uprising. It didn't require the CIA mate. That was EU naïveté and Russian ham-fistedness. Sometimes the US doesn't need to stick its neocon hands into things. They just happen. But it suits the. narrative of Putin to promote that. It just saddens me that normally smart folk are willing to swallow their nonsense.

When history is re-written I'm afraid that period will go down as joint top of the most colossal mistakes that Merkel made

 

[Federberg]

 

[britbox]

I don't buy the 'CIA engineered a coup' conspiracy. Never have. What I do recall, was that Russia was heavily involved in Ukrainian politics. This is the problem with Russia. They failed at democracy (Gorbachev, Yeltsin a massive collapse in the wealth of the Russian people and crippling corruption), and I fully understand that the Russian population is probably no longer not that interested in democracy any longer. Putin and his siloviki created a kleptocracy that in times of high commodity prices served the Russian population well enough. But the flip side of that was that Putin has never felt secure about democracies flourishing on his doorstep. He dominated Ukrainian politics by using the pipelines as an extortive tool and also by co-opting Ukrainian politicians and instituting a culture of corruption there. The maidan was in my view a genuine aspiration of the Ukrainian people to be a normal democracy and a part of the EU. The EU, not NATO. But to Russian sensibilities the EU and NATO are synonymous. The EU grossly miscalculated by extending pre-entry grants to Ukraine - and by the way, I very much doubt that was encouraged by the US. And that led to the Ukrainian government to be put. under pressure by Russia to go against the will of the people. Hence the uprising. It didn't require the CIA mate. That was EU naïveté and Russian ham-fistedness. Sometimes the US doesn't need to stick its neocon hands into things. They just happen. But it suits the. narrative of Putin to promote that. It just saddens me that normally smart folk are willing to swallow their nonsense.

When history is re-written I'm afraid that period will go down as joint top of the most colossal mistakes that Merkel made

I guess it must have been coincidence that "unknown" snipers started picking off protestors in the crowd (a cookie cutter approach used in many countries to effect the same change) and Nuland was caught on the phone mocking the EU and deciding on who the next president was going to be. Also a coincidence that CIA Director Brennan was in Kiev as things started heating up. Another coincidence no doubt - I'm sure he was just having a routine city break. Nothing to see here.

As for "flourishing democracies" - Ukraine wasn't flourishing in the slightest - they couldn't pay their gas bill. As for Democracy - presumably you mean the one they overthrew by force in 2014. The EU had offered an 800 million trade deal and Russia offered 15 billion and extra energy discounts. The Russians also said the Ukrainians could have free trade deals with the Russian block AND the EU. The EU refused that arrangement. As the deal was going to get done, the coup suddenly occurs. How organic...

Interestingly, We actually started this thread in 2014 around the same time this unfolded - go and read the original comments. If the coup was successful I reckoned the Russians would take Crimea and have a heavy influence in the Russian speaking Eastern provinces... pretty much what happened.

This time, I think probably all bets are off - and unless this de-escalates very quickly then it'll spell the end of Western Civilization as you know it... which based on current patterns is barely worth preserving at this point. It's been destroyed from within. The social and moral fabric is being torn apart, every "western" nation is billions in debt and the citizens are being squeezed for the last remaining drops before the pips pop out.

War is always a racket. When they come for your pension funds and homes (through mortgage defaults) because of "Big Bad Russia" the penny might drop. Or maybe you'll be crawling through some Ukrainian mud on the Eastern front "doing your bit" while the oligarchs sip on cognac laughing at the stupidity of mankind before they engineer the next crisis in the games of RISK.

Does nobody ever learn anything from this crap? Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iraq (twice), Yemen... People keep falling for the same old shit and propaganda over and over and over again... How many iterations of monikers like the "next Hitler", "The butcher of <Insert Place>", "Dictator <Insert Name>", "Killing their own people", "Threat to the International Order"... do we seriously buy? It's utter nonsense.

 

[Kieran]

I guess it must have been coincidence that "unknown" snipers started picking off protestors in the crowd (a cookie cutter approach used in many countries to effect the same change) and Nuland was caught on the phone mocking the EU and deciding on who the next president was going to be. Also a coincidence that CIA Director Brennan was in Kiev as things started heating up. Another coincidence no doubt - I'm sure he was just having a routine city break. Nothing to see here.

As for "flourishing democracies" - Ukraine wasn't flourishing in the slightest - they couldn't pay their gas bill. As for Democracy - presumably you mean the one they overthrew by force in 2014. The EU had offered an 800 million trade deal and Russia offered 15 billion and extra energy discounts. The Russians also said the Ukrainians could have free trade deals with the Russian block AND the EU. The EU refused that arrangement. As the deal was going to get done, the coup suddenly occurs. How organic...

Interestingly, We actually started this thread in 2014 around the same time this unfolded - go and read the original comments. If the coup was successful I reckoned the Russians would take Crimea and have a heavy influence in the Russian speaking Eastern provinces... pretty much what happened.

This time, I think probably all bets are off - and unless this de-escalates very quickly then it'll spell the end of Western Civilization as you know it... which based on current patterns is barely worth preserving at this point. It's been destroyed from within. The social and moral fabric is being torn apart, every "western" nation is billions in debt and the citizens are being squeezed for the last remaining drops before the pips pop out.

War is always a racket. When they come for your pension funds and homes (through mortgage defaults) because of "Big Bad Russia" the penny might drop. Or maybe you'll be crawling through some Ukrainian mud on the Eastern front "doing your bit" while the oligarchs sip on cognac laughing at the stupidity of mankind before they engineer the next crisis in the games of RISK.

Does nobody ever learn anything from this crap? Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iraq (twice), Yemen... People keep falling for the same old shit and propaganda over and over and over again... How many iterations of monikers like the "next Hitler", "The butcher of <Insert Place>", "Dictator <Insert Name>", "Killing their own people", "Threat to the International Order"... do we seriously buy? It's utter nonsense.

You seem to think the tyrants are blameless or even admirable in all this. I remember Leonard Cohen saying once, be nice about America, despite its faults. What comes after will be terrible. He’s right, of course. A world where some people think that Putin represents some moral order is a world that deserves to die. I’ve seen people argue (not here) that Putin is a defender of Christian values against the decadent west. I think if Putin represents this, I’ll stamp the atheist ticket from now on.

Putin is a tyrant, behaving like tyrants behave. On my first visit to the missus relatives in Lithuania over 20 years ago they were anxious about Putin. They are correct to be. Russian apologists should ask themselves why the Baltic states and Poland were so eager to join the EU and NATO. They freely exercised their right to be where they wanted to be, before that right was taken from them by force by Putin. And there are people in the west who think they should not have done this because it offends the tyrant. And ever since then he’s been trying to bully them, and they know he’ll invade given the chance.

I don’t think he’s Hitler or Stalin or Xi or any other tyrant. He’s himself. Putin, the tyrant, acting like a tyrant and living his best tyrant life…

 

[Federberg]

I guess it must have been coincidence that "unknown" snipers started picking off protestors in the crowd (a cookie cutter approach used in many countries to effect the same change) and Nuland was caught on the phone mocking the EU and deciding on who the next president was going to be. Also a coincidence that CIA Director Brennan was in Kiev as things started heating up. Another coincidence no doubt - I'm sure he was just having a routine city break. Nothing to see here.

As for "flourishing democracies" - Ukraine wasn't flourishing in the slightest - they couldn't pay their gas bill. As for Democracy - presumably you mean the one they overthrew by force in 2014. The EU had offered an 800 million trade deal and Russia offered 15 billion and extra energy discounts. The Russians also said the Ukrainians could have free trade deals with the Russian block AND the EU. The EU refused that arrangement. As the deal was going to get done, the coup suddenly occurs. How organic...

Interestingly, We actually started this thread in 2014 around the same time this unfolded - go and read the original comments. If the coup was successful I reckoned the Russians would take Crimea and have a heavy influence in the Russian speaking Eastern provinces... pretty much what happened.

This time, I think probably all bets are off - and unless this de-escalates very quickly then it'll spell the end of Western Civilization as you know it... which based on current patterns is barely worth preserving at this point. It's been destroyed from within. The social and moral fabric is being torn apart, every "western" nation is billions in debt and the citizens are being squeezed for the last remaining drops before the pips pop out.

War is always a racket. When they come for your pension funds and homes (through mortgage defaults) because of "Big Bad Russia" the penny might drop. Or maybe you'll be crawling through some Ukrainian mud on the Eastern front "doing your bit" while the oligarchs sip on cognac laughing at the stupidity of mankind before they engineer the next crisis in the games of RISK.

Does nobody ever learn anything from this crap? Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iraq (twice), Yemen... People keep falling for the same old shit and propaganda over and over and over again... How many iterations of monikers like the "next Hitler", "The butcher of <Insert Place>", "Dictator <Insert Name>", "Killing their own people", "Threat to the International Order"... do we seriously buy? It's utter nonsense.

you're so far down the rabbit hole with your conspiracies it's difficult to have this debate. Even with all that, it's still bizarre to me that you completely miss the fact that Putin is not the good guy in all this. You might not realise you're doing it, which is why I keep pushing back at you. At the very least Putin is as bad as the West. And as much as you would like to blame the West they're not fighting in Ukraine. They're supporting a legitimately elected government, and they are absolutely right to. If you're trying to tell me it would be better for Russia to take over Ukraine, then seriously mate. Stop now. You and I are never going to agree. Let's not waste any more energy

 

[Kieran]

you're so far down the rabbit hole with your conspiracies it's difficult to have this debate. Even with all that, it's still bizarre to me that you completely miss the fact that Putin is not the good guy in all this. You might not realise you're doing it, which is why I keep pushing back at you. At the very least Putin is as bad as the West. And as much as you would like to blame the West they're not fighting in Ukraine. They're supporting a legitimately elected government, and they are absolutely right to. If you're trying to tell me it would be better for Russia to take over Ukraine, then seriously mate. Stop now. You and I are never going to agree. Let's not waste any more energy

Even if they weren’t a legitimately elected government in Ukraine………nor is Russia‘s. Can you remember in your lifetime a legal election taking place in Russia? Maybe it happened once, after the fall of communism, but under Putin? A legitimate election? It’s hard to imagine how it might happen, given the way he treats political opponents at home…

 

[Federberg]

Even if they weren’t a legitimately elected government in Ukraine………nor is Russia‘s. Can you remember in your lifetime a legal election taking place in Russia? Maybe it happened once, after the fall of communism, but under Putin? A legitimate election? It’s hard to imagine how it might happen, given the way he treats political opponents at home…

the first one or two were legitimate. For both Yeltsin and the very first one for Putin. I'm not sure one is possible now, and I rather suspect the Russian. people have a different understanding of the benefits of democracy to us in the West. It'll take them generations to want to seriously give it another shot

 

[britbox]

you're so far down the rabbit hole with your conspiracies it's difficult to have this debate. Even with all that, it's still bizarre to me that you completely miss the fact that Putin is not the good guy in all this. You might not realise you're doing it, which is why I keep pushing back at you. At the very least Putin is as bad as the West. And as much as you would like to blame the West they're not fighting in Ukraine. They're supporting a legitimately elected government, and they are absolutely right to. If you're trying to tell me it would be better for Russia to take over Ukraine, then seriously mate. Stop now. You and I are never going to agree. Let's not waste any more energy

You're conflating the old saying "Don't poke that dangerous bear with a stick" with the presumption that the person saying it loves dangerous bears. Sorry mate, that's not the case.

I remember the same assumption with Trump too... just because I didn't buy the endless Russian conspiracies you were touting at the time (later determined to be false) etc - I was somehow deemed a worshipper of the guy. Binary thinking my friend... and we're now in the Quantum age of endless possibilities... get up to speed!

As for conspiracies in general, if a guy is standing at a bus stop looking at his watch - my gut feeling is that he's waiting for a bus. Even though the bus hasn't arrived. While others might call it a conspiracy theory, more often than not, the bus will eventually come into view.

Mate, there are a lot of smart people in this world that don't leave too much to chance. They know the probabilities of outcomes before they take action, engineering the circumstances beforehand. That's why we've just seen the biggest transfer of wealth in history. Coincidence? Hardly! Conspiracy... absolutely. Theory... not really. Sun Tzu style. For a modern example look into Blackrock and Aladdin AI.

If you don't believe conspiracies take place then ask yourself why classified documents exist, why militaries exist (is it because some other entity might conspire to attack you?)... Stalin thought it was a conspiracy theory that Hitler was going to invade by all accounts. For a flavour of some darker stuff, look up Operation Northwoods. Fortunately, that didn't happen, but the fact it was signed off by chiefs of staff should alarm anybody. One thing it should illustrate is that anything of note is shaped by conspiring parties executing plans - for good or bad.

As for the West and Putin... I'm sure a majority of people living in the West would prefer Western leadership to Putin or Xi, does the same apply to people in the East? or even the Eastern regions of the Ukraine. Don't count on it.

 

[Kieran]

As for the West and Putin... I'm sure a majority of people living in the West would prefer Western leadership to Putin or Xi, does the same apply to people in the East? or even the Eastern regions of the Ukraine. Don't count on it.

We’ll never know what Russians or Chinese would prefer, because they won’t be allowed to say, under the current regimes. And they have no history of being free to openly discuss and complain. And if they attempt to say anything that the reigning tyrant detests, then they’ll disappear.

But which would you prefer? A faulty west that at least you can criticise, or a tyrannical east that forces thought onto you?

 

[britbox]

We’ll never know what Russians or Chinese would prefer, because they won’t be allowed to say, under the current regimes. And they have no history of being free to openly discuss and complain. And if they attempt to say anything that the reigning tyrant detests, then they’ll disappear.

But which would you prefer? A faulty west that at least you can criticise, or a tyrannical east that forces thought onto you?

It depends what you call history. The Chinese had a great civilization before the British East India Company flooded the place with Opium... and the Russians wiped the history of Grand Tartary, but if you're talking history in the context of Premier League (recent history, forget the rest). i.e. The bloodthirsty Bolshevik Revolution and Mao's rampage... then I'd agree

However, if you think the West don't bump people off then that's pretty naïve. You just won't hear much about it. Politicians are more fair game, but industry isn't.

If you didn't notice, truckers in Canada all had the bank accounts frozen for protesting. Countless medical professionals lost their jobs for not going along with the narrative... or as former NZ Premier Jacinda Arden said "We are your single source of truth". A little Orwellian don't you think? Maybe the 15 minute cities and carbon credits might cheer you up. All based on the Chinese social credit system. Not just based on your actions and thoughts... but those who you associate with. I'll get my coat!

 

[Kieran]

It depends what you call history. The Chinese had a great civilization before the British East India Company flooded the place with Opium... and the Russians wiped the history of Grand Tartary, but if you're talking history in the context of Premier League (recent history, forget the rest). i.e. The bloodthirsty Bolshevik Revolution and Mao's rampage... then I'd agree

So we agree. On this. And this is more relevant to my question than the Tartars and the East India Company. In fact, even during the times long past that you mention, Chinese and Russian people were not free to have a say in the direction their own lives.

But the last 100 years? We’re both know our recent history, and it’s not simply comparable to people who think that football began with the premier league and sky sports.

However, if you think the West don't bump people off then that's pretty naïve. You just won't hear much about it. Politicians are more fair game, but industry isn't.


If you didn't notice, truckers in Canada all had the bank accounts frozen for protesting. Countless medical professionals lost their jobs for not going along with the narrative... or as former NZ Premier Jacinda Arden said "We are your single source of truth". A little Orwellian don't you think? Maybe the 15 minute cities and carbon credits might cheer you up. All based on the Chinese social credit system. Not just based on your actions and thoughts... but those who you associate with. I'll get my coat!

All this, I agree with. In fact, I’ve said so often here. The vacuous boy prince in Canada is a danger to the west. Arden the famously heroic breast feeder, thankfully she’s gone.

You still didn’t answer my question.

 

[Federberg]

You're conflating the old saying "Don't poke that dangerous bear with a stick" with the presumption that the person saying it loves dangerous bears. Sorry mate, that's not the case.

don't know what that means...

I remember the same assumption with Trump too... just because I didn't buy the endless Russian conspiracies you were touting at the time (later determined to be false) etc - I was somehow deemed a worshipper of the guy. Binary thinking my friend... and we're now in the Quantum age of endless possibilities... get up to speed!

perhaps you were the one who was duped. If you're referring to the Mueller Report, Trump was not exonerated. It seems to me you've allowed yourself to be duped by Trump and Barr's own interpretation of it.

As for conspiracies in general, if a guy is standing at a bus stop looking at his watch - my gut feeling is that he's waiting for a bus. Even though the bus hasn't arrived. While others might call it a conspiracy theory, more often than not, the bus will eventually come into view.

Mate, there are a lot of smart people in this world that don't leave too much to chance. They know the probabilities of outcomes before they take action, engineering the circumstances beforehand. That's why we've just seen the biggest transfer of wealth in history. Coincidence? Hardly! Conspiracy... absolutely. Theory... not really. Sun Tzu style. For a modern example look into Blackrock and Aladdin AI.

If you don't believe conspiracies take place then ask yourself why classified documents exist, why militaries exist (is it because some other entity might conspire to attack you?)... Stalin thought it was a conspiracy theory that Hitler was going to invade by all accounts. For a flavour of some darker stuff, look up Operation Northwoods. Fortunately, that didn't happen, but the fact it was signed off by chiefs of staff should alarm anybody. One thing it should illustrate is that anything of note is shaped by conspiring parties executing plans - for good or bad.

straight down the rabbit hole here. Sorry mate. Hey you're entitled to your view. Get back to me when there's some substance behind it. Actually don't.. we'll probably disagree on what substance means.

As for the West and Putin... I'm sure a majority of people living in the West would prefer Western leadership to Putin or Xi, does the same apply to people in the East? or even the Eastern regions of the Ukraine. Don't count on it.

that's a straw man mate. It's interesting to me that while we - who don't agree with you - try to meet your questions with straight forward responses, you keep. ducking and diving. You criticise Germany for recognising that in the face of a nearby country with the penchant for invading neighbours they are reviewing their military posture. But when asked what alternative they have, you don't provide a good faith response. You seem to imply that the West is prosecuting an act of aggression against Russia, but seem to ignore the fact that Russia is the one that's invaded a neighbour. Not just one neighbour by the way. I'm happy to have this debate, but it requires you to provide clear answers as well. I'm truly baffled by this new tendency. I'm not even trying to make this a light versus dark issue. I've already acknowledged and agreed with you that neocon shite from the West is not where we want to go. But if an alien from Mars reads what you're writing what they'll get out of it, is that you believe Putin and Xi are innocents or are on the side of the light? That's where you totally lose me

 

[britbox]

So we agree. On this. And this is more relevant to my question than the Tartars and the East India Company.

All this, I agree with. In fact, I’ve said so often here. The vacuous boy prince in Canada is a danger to the west. Arden the famously heroic breast feeder, thankfully she’s gone.

You still didn’t answer my question.

There is no "right answer" because effectively you are delegating somebody else to think for you. I don't care much for either is my reply.

NZ has only got a cookie cutter replacement for Saint Jacinda.

Now, you say Trudeau is a danger to the "West". If we go by your methodology of "follow the leader" then Trudeau IS "The West", likewise Leo IS "The West", Ursula IS "The West", Jacinda IS "The West", Biden IS "The West", Rishi IS "The West", Albanese IS "The West" Mark Rutte IS "The West", Macron IS "The West"...

Is there anything you find particularly attractive about the policies of any of these characters? or more to the point, what do they all have in common, and where are they taking you?

I don't hate any of them by the way - they are performing a role, that is all. A catalyst for change that most people won't understand or like.