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Federberg

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I have thought long and hard about this, and it's clear that Republicans and Democrats prosecute their campaigns in fundamentally different ways. Perhaps I allowed myself to be clouded by my loathing of Trump (as did half of America), but it all boils down to one party appealing to a version of what they perceive as America, right or wrong (GOP), and the other with a multiplicity of appeals to separate categories of society while trying to knit it all into a conglomeration that achieves a majority. One appeal is seamless and therefore has a natural authenticity to it, the other one, depends on interest groups finding agreement in specific parts of the case, while never really pleasing everyone, or indeed anyone in the whole. By definition that second appeal will lack authenticity. There's always something one will find that's uncomfortable. There can be NO appeal to values with this strategy, it lacks the courage of conviction. In a funny way, I'm forced to concede that many people might find that appeal to be the hell-scape that Trump repeatedly alluded to. I didn't get it before, perhaps I'm closer to understanding the Trump appeal now - it's consistent, thematic and powerful. That does not mean I have retreated from my view on Trump, which is specific and personal, in fact I'm certain that if he proceeds with tariffs the stock markets will collapse during this second administration, and we are likely to move into a new era of Great Power conflict. Europe is the massive loser here as their position, stuck between China and the US will be found quickly to be untenable. What a mess!
 
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Kieran

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but it all boils down to one party appealing to a version of what they perceive as America right or wrong (GOP) and the other with a multiplicity of appeals to separate categories of society while trying to knit it all into a conglomeration that achieves a majority. One appeal is seamless and therefore has a natural authenticity to it, the other one, depends on interest groups finding agreement in specific parts of the case, while never really pleasing everyone, or indeed anyone in the whole. By definition that second appeal will lack authenticity. There's always something one will find that's uncomfortable. There can be NO appeal to values with this strategy, it lacks the courage of conviction.

This is very astute. It reminds me of something Vivek Ramaswamy said about emphasising what they have in common, rather focusing than what divides. But you’re coming from a slightly different angle. The American identity, and what it represents. Interesting about values too, a lot to think about there!
 
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Moxie

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I think you’re so far down the rabbit hole here that you’re projecting. So let’s ignore the stuff you’re projecting. You’re doing this to discredit me, so let’s ignore that too, and discuss things in good faith, and not angrily.

Yes there are people who believe in open borders. You’ve had a very interesting narrative there regarding the border with Mexico. Barack Obama was known as the Deporter in Chief, because he used to deport illegals in huge numbers. He saw there, at least, a problem and also a solution. And he dealt with it. Trump then recommended the wall. The democrats of course cried racist and got in and allowed record numbers of illegal aliens to cross the border.

The democrats now agree about the wall. Why? The reason is obvious.

But you will see people who will argue that borders are racism, that border cops are racist, and so on. I think it would be dishonest of anyone on the left - and especially the far left - to declare that “nobody wants open borders.”

As for drag queens and their shows in front of children, just Google “drag queens America children” and you’ll see a load of pages arguing back and forth. Some of these pages show examples for you to peruse, some of them say it’s harmless - and some of them are correct to say they’re sexualising kids.

The trans hoax seems to be dying out - but that’s a gift from your mob, and one you never criticised. Heaven forbid, you should ever find fault with the left, but I would think the protection of kids might have incited such a reaction. Activists who are masquerading as therapists - therapists who seem only to have one therapy. Chemical castration. Mutilation. Pushing kids into an identity crisis.

By the way, while we’re at it, I think you were to tell me what my “gender agenda” is? You made a little comment and forgot the footnotes.

As for racism, the Democrats are racist because they promote racial division. They promote DIE initiatives that negatively affect Asians. They patronise black people by telling them that “you ain’t black” if they want to exercise their agency and vote whatever the hell way they want to vote. The Democrats don’t own black people, anymore. They’re not still your slaves. They can vote based on their own self interest.

I agree with you on Trump and election denial, but that’s because I look at politics from a position of principles, and not as someone tethered to a sheaf of dodgy propositions, an ever-increasing pile of shifting realities, which you seem to be. Whatever the far left are selling, you’re buying. At least, I don’t remember you ever criticising them. The Democrats are into political fads, modish thinking, and the normalising of their excesses is having a catastrophic effect, not just in your country through bogus empty suit hustlers like Ibram X Kendi, BLM and Kamala Harris, but through the idiotic imitation of these posturing dimwits by smug pampered westerners everywhere.

These people are spreading a caricature of slavery which doesn’t hold Africans to account. They buy into the notion that old whitey did it all. They have inadequate Marxists binaries that cover everything, or so they think. Oppressor/oppressed, coloniser/, and so forth. It’s depressingly simplistic, misleading, dishonest and unhelpful.

But that’s the modern left. Stop blaming everyone else for that fact that your candidate was lousy. This kind of common thought is really revealing - I’m not blaming you necessarily here because I’m not paying too much attention to posts - but it's a common reaction to claim misogyny, racism and all the yawn list of blame, rather than honestly look in the mirror and say, WTF, I’m not going out dressed like that, people will laugh at me..
Nothing I said was meant to discredit you, though I would discredit the way you characterize some things, and politicize it all and attributing it to the Democrats. Your question was how Fiero, or we can support Democrats. My point is that I much more fear the illiberalism and anti-democratic policies of Trump and the strongmen that he likes in this world than I do that culture wars stuff that is what bothers you more. That's all.
 
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Moxie

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I've finally decided it's a losing battle to even fight these kind of folks! They make up $#!t as they go along, then repeat it over & over again! They begin to even believe it & are so self-assured & emphatic in their BS! Everyone knows Trump lied about everything including th implementation of Project 2025! The whole World will probably pay for the hubris in electing this monster! As a Senior, I won't have to deal w/ the consequences! It's been a trend of the last decade or so for the populous in different countries around the world to voluntarily allow miscrients to take over their gov'ts to shake them up! I thought Italy & England were insane enough, but we've done it twice! Well we got what we asked for! DJT won the popular vote, not just the Elec. Col.! So that means even the women who were given pleas to stop this from happening spit in our collective faces! They have no idea WTF they've just done! Repercussions will be felt for decades to come if we survive at all! I've stopped watching the news & will do my best to ignore anything political! Heaven knows what will happen! Good luck out there! We'll all need it! :astonished-face:


I'm not trying to be mean or judgemental, but are women responsible for anything w/ you? I hear the same refrain of a lack of representation by women, but w/ their numbers, female politicians are dropping by the wayside! Men are idiots and I have no excuse for the stupid pols they choose, but it's not the same! Our rights aren't being curtailed! Women have special medical needs, but men are making the decisions mainly b/c women are voting against the feminist agenda! I was all for it seeing the independence of my mom, but overall I've seen women who have more choices are terribly unhappy, on meds, or under a psychologist's care! The delusions are real it seems! They're looking for their happiness unable to get it from within! Am I lying or making this up? What's your take? If I'm a hater b/c I'm pointing a few things out, are women allowed to be criticized at all? What are the limits I'm not seeing? :astonished-face::angry-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-vomiting:
I never said women can't be criticized. It's just that you blame them, and repeat that blame over and over, for the last few election cycles. My point is that men vote, too, and in a larger majority for Trump, and Republicans, in general. You might consider spreading the blame a bit, is all, if blame the electorate you must.
 
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Fiero425

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I never said women can't be criticized. It's just that you blame them, and repeat that blame over and over, for the last few election cycles. My point is that men vote, too, and in a larger majority for Trump, and Republicans, in general. You might consider spreading the blame a bit, is all, if blame the electorate you must.

Maybe I'm overcompensating for giving women the "benefit of the doubt" for 50+ years! I've watched them pass the buck, rarely taking responsibility for their own bad choices! Of late it does appear women, w/ other minorities are voting against their own best interests & it's obviously driving me insane! From a young age, I had more common sense using logic when others flew by the seat of their pants! I've avoided so much heartache in things I could control unlike these elections where I feeel helpless! No one can justify the current state of affairs as this country elected a FELON! He's a pathological liar, sexual predator, con man, & racist POS! We've condemned the planet to unimaginable possibilities b/c the Dems give more credit to the common sense of the people! Repuklicans take advantage of how selfish and grievance driven a great deal of the populous has become! It doesn't make sense, but people feel better about themselves when unemployment is higher, the stock market's crashing, & inflation out of control! It doesn't make sense to logical folks, but a great many have a weird psychosis going on looking for the worst in every situation! I think some might be happier w/ more school shootings, assassinations of liberal judges & abortion doctors, & clinic bombings! Sounds sick, but I saw it coming! The country truly lost its soul back in the 90s! Things have gotten steadily worse as time's gone on w/ elections of "W," now Trump twice! I just hoped I'd miss it all, but "I'm still standing!" :angry-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
 
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Moxie

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Maybe I'm overcompensating for giving women the "benefit of the doubt" for 50+ years! I've watched them pass the buck, rarely taking responsibility for their own bad choices! Of late it does appear women, w/ other minorities are voting against their own best interests & it's obviously driving me insane! From a young age, I had more common sense using logic when others flew by the seat of their pants! I've avoided so much heartache in things I could control unlike these elections where I feeel helpless! No one can justify the current state of affairs as this country elected a FELON! He's a pathological liar, sexual predator, con man, & racist POS! We've condemned the planet to unimaginable possibilities b/c the Dems give more credit to the common sense of the people! Repuklicans take advantage of how selfish and grievance driven a great deal of the populous has become! It doesn't make sense, but people feel better about themselves when unemployment is higher, the stock market's crashing, & inflation out of control! It doesn't make sense to logical folks, but a great many have a weird psychosis going on looking for the worst in every situation! I think some might be happier w/ more school shootings, assassinations of liberal judges & abortion doctors, & clinic bombings! Sounds sick, but I saw it coming! The country truly lost its soul back in the 90s! Things have gotten steadily worse as time's gone on w/ elections of "W," now Trump twice! I just hoped I'd miss it all, but "I'm still standing!" :angry-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
While I share a lot of your astonishment as to how people can fall for Trump, and for all the reasons you say, it may be time to stop telling people that they are voting against their own interests. A lot of people felt unheard and unseen, and that is their major interest.
 
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Fiero425

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While I share a lot of your astonishment as to how people can fall for Trump, and for all the reasons you say, it may be time to stop telling people that they are voting against their own interests. A lot of people felt unheard and unseen, and that is their major interest.

You're not getting how sick this is! The last few wks. it was about self determination of the body for women! It was hammered home the consequences of allowing Trump another opportunity to lock down the Supreme Court for the next 40 years! Horrific ads showed how overturning R v W had put them in jeopardy! Women were dying waiting for court apoproval to permit a surgical procedure! This is why I obsess on the women's angle! This campaign centered around this one issue over the economy & Illegal immigration! The other side was insulting or being negative about everything & everybody! This doddering old fool called the country a garbage dump while slurring his words! It's just incomprehensible we're in this situation! Even though the signs showed it could happen, all we could do was hope there'd be another upset as in '20, '22, & '23 w/ Dems holding on in political races! Our luck finally ran out w/ Kamala! It's the double whammy of a female candidate w/ more women voters! Both times they didn't just lose, they were punished! I've seen most all the major elections; 1968 here in Chgo. & the McGovern late night disaster of '72! It doesn't seem to matter if the Dem. selection is selected in an orderly fashion or it's chaos w/ infighting like Carter/Kennedy in '80? If the Dems are meant to lose, they can't be helped! I thought the Republicans would fall by the wayside w/ their current attitude, but they're thriving w/ less money & predictable negative press! :angry-face::fearful-face::yawningface::anxious-face-with-sweat:
 
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Kieran

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Nothing I said was meant to discredit you, though I would discredit the way you characterize some things, and politicize it all and attributing it to the Democrats. Your question was how Fiero, or we can support Democrats. My point is that I much more fear the illiberalism and anti-democratic policies of Trump and the strongmen that he likes in this world than I do that culture wars stuff that is what bothers you more. That's all.
The culture war stuff is normalising madness, and is coming from the left and rubberstamped - and cheered on - by the Democrats, from the top down. They’re telling us that lies are truth, and the purpose seems to be to destroy the most successful and free societies in history. It’s dangerous to children and it often manifests itself as being support for the most sadistic societies on earth.

I don’t see why you’re not concerned about this.

The strongmen fixation some have is also a danger, and as you can see from my posts, it’s possible to be critical of both these things…

EDIT: I’m not saying that to act superior. Others here criticise both sides as well, and the Democrats have to learn that they are not morally superior, nor do they have a right to govern, no matter who the candidate is. The left has to be extinguished and replaced by freedom loving liberals, just as the right needs to vacate the space that’s properly conservative. But Democrats won’t change if they think they’re correct and the electorate is wrong.

Because the electorate is always correct…
 
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Moxie

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The culture war stuff is normalising madness, and is coming from the left and rubberstamped - and cheered on - by the Democrats, from the top down. They’re telling us that lies are truth, and the purpose seems to be to destroy the most successful and free societies in history. It’s dangerous to children and it often manifests itself as being support for the most sadistic societies on earth.

I don’t see why you’re not concerned about this.

The strongmen fixation some have is also a danger, and as you can see from my posts, it’s possible to be critical of both these things…

EDIT: I’m not saying that to act superior. Others here criticise both sides as well, and the Democrats have to learn that they are not morally superior, nor do they have a right to govern, no matter who the candidate is. The left has to be extinguished and replaced by freedom loving liberals, just as the right needs to vacate the space that’s properly conservative. But Democrats won’t change if they think they’re correct and the electorate is wrong.

Because the electorate is always correct…
No, you are acting rather superior, pretending that you are even-handed, and others aren't. You're not. You criticize the Democrats in my country, often, brutally, and with a lot of distain. There may be the odd moment where you worry about the Republicans. I'm trying to remember a moment, but I'll believe you. However, if you call it a "strongman fixation," which seems to minimize it, that's definitely not worrying about what worries me. I'm very worried about the loss of rules and norms of law. He's going to pardon himself, which is frightening enough, and everyone who was convicted in the January 6th insurrection.

The culture wars is not "normalizing madness." I rather hate the term, but you seem to have forgotten where we even started, which is trying to make life fair for everyone. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Where it has flown off into madness is people like yourself calling out things that are marginal, at best, and acting like they are big problems. I know these things matter to you, and I'm trying not to downplay them, but it's hard not to think you make a lot out of things that are so peripheral.
 
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Front242

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No, you are acting rather superior, pretending that you are even-handed, and others aren't. You're not. You criticize the Democrats in my country, often, brutally, and with a lot of distain. There may be the odd moment where you worry about the Republicans. I'm trying to remember a moment, but I'll believe you. However, if you call it a "strongman fixation," which seems to minimize it, that's definitely not worrying about what worries me. I'm very worried about the loss of rules and norms of law. He's going to pardon himself, which is frightening enough, and everyone who was convicted in the January 6th insurrection.

The culture wars is not "normalizing madness." I rather hate the term, but you seem to have forgotten where we even started, which is trying to make life fair for everyone. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Where it has flown off into madness is people like yourself calling out things that are marginal, at best, and acting like they are big problems. I know these things matter to you, and I'm trying not to downplay them, but it's hard not to think you make a lot out of things that are so peripheral.
Life isn't fair for everyone if John who's hung like a horse wants to pretend he's Mary and use the female toilets. This is just so damn wrong. Really hoping some of this obscene nonsense gets toned down but I'm not holding my breath as the damage was done by the leftist nut jobs. These are indeed very big problems because the left have made it a crime to misgender someone even when it's obvious the person isn't a woman etc.

Also DEI has meant the right candidate no longer gets appointed in jobs. It's garbage, to quote your president...
 

Kieran

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No, you are acting rather superior, pretending that you are even-handed, and others aren't. You're not. You criticize the Democrats in my country, often, brutally, and with a lot of distain. There may be the odd moment where you worry about the Republicans. I'm trying to remember a moment, but I'll believe you. However, if you call it a "strongman fixation," which seems to minimize it, that's definitely not worrying about what worries me. I'm very worried about the loss of rules and norms of law. He's going to pardon himself, which is frightening enough, and everyone who was convicted in the January 6th insurrection.

I’ve often said that I dislike Trump and the rights fixation with strong man leaders. But even more I dislike weak leaders, and leaders who want their citizens and their country to be weak. I do treat the left with disdain and I never pretend to be even handed. The left have always been the ones trying to destroy society. Even when I was a youngster I knew members of CND, for instance, and I knew they wanted to weaken/destroy the society that made them better off. It’s not a perfect society, but it’s better than the Soviet Union or any of the non democratic societies.

The left hates the west. They hate its greatness, they hate its successes. They give us all this hatred of white people as a shorthand way of saying this. White guilt. They can shove that up their ahistorical a$$. They are very simplistic, inaccurate thinkers.

The culture wars are a battle for survival. The left have gotten a head start and yes, they’ve normalised madness. Trans is only the most loud and ugly example. When we saw that nutty professor whine in Congress that men can become pregnant - sent there by the democrats - what was that, but an attempt to normalise madness? Rubber-stamped by the democrats.

This stuff is all going to be difficult to ctrl-zed. A friend of ours has a lovely 15 year old daughter who’s confused about her identity. The friend is terrified she’ll get ‘therapy’ that mutilates her breasts and that of course she’ll live you regret it, as so many do. This wasn’t a big news thing until the left went into overdrive and start hassling kids. There were always kids with gender dysphoria, but there were never ideologues in power pushing the idea that gender isn’t real, and reality was dead, that a kids awkwardness could be surgically removed.

The culture wars is not "normalizing madness." I rather hate the term, but you seem to have forgotten where we even started, which is trying to make life fair for everyone. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Where it has flown off into madness is people like yourself calling out things that are marginal, at best, and acting like they are big problems. I know these things matter to you, and I'm trying not to downplay them, but it's hard not to think you make a lot out of things that are so peripheral.

You really believe the left is about making life fair? How touching. I’ve never seen it like that, at all. Your definition of “fair” might be interesting to read. That you don’t see it as a bad thing is interesting too. Do you ever ask yourself if this attempt at making fair is actually creating new unfairnesses? Have you ever questioned if the left is actually doing harm by trying to make life fair?

These things aren’t marginal, by the way. They’ve gone mainstream. Bad ideas on race, gender, equality? They were visiting the White House and have a sympathetic ear among your politicians. The activists have been running rings around you and you’re so too easy impressed to bother. They run riot in your formerly great universities - students, professors, presidents and all - and you're thinking, they’re just trying to make life fair?

Activists holding mainly peaceful riots and looting and bloodshed and murder, and all you see is MLK. Ibram X Kendi, BLM, DIE, cancel culture. These things are accepted in America by the left, and now we know why: they’re trying to make life fair? :facepalm:
 

Kieran

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Life isn't fair for everyone if John who's hung like a horse wants to pretend he's Mary and use the female toilets. This is just so damn wrong. Really hoping some of this obscene nonsense gets toned down but I'm not holding my breath as the damage was done by the leftist nut jobs. These are indeed very big problems because the left have made it a crime to misgender someone even when it's obvious the person isn't a woman etc.

Also DEI has meant the right candidate no longer gets appointed in jobs. It's garbage, to quote your president...

Yeah, misgendering is a hate crime, a hate speech. If we don’t defer to some halfwits “pronouns” it’s hateful.

No it isn’t, it’s grammar. End of. Nobody ever imagined we’d see such a thing as workers in banks and retail stores wearing pronoun badges. And we’re expected to play along? Literally, normalising madness…
 

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I'll reserve judgement on Trump for the time being, but the Israeli connections have always been bothersome. I have no love whatsoever for that state. Trump's appointment of Elise Stefanek as US Ambassador isn't a good look.
 

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As George Carlin said, "It's one big club and you aren't in it".

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