US Politics Thread

[Federberg]

You didn't even know this was a thing until BB brought it up yesterday, and he didn't know it was a thing until he read it in the right-wing media, which picked it up when it coincided with Easter. And yet, it's been a "thing" for 15 years. Do you think if you put "Most people don't want this" it makes it more accurate? Do you have data? And do you mean most people in the US, or in the world? How do you even know that most people care that much? Yes, the right-wing has made it part of the culture wars, but it's just part of a bag of tricks.

actually it was trending on twitter. I just didn't feel the need to comment about it here.

By the way I think most people would be willing to ignore it as they have their own lives to live. The problem is that weirdly Dems choose to push it in everyone's faces. Trust me on this, we all want to be left alone. If it's out of sight it's out of mind. But for some reason I don't understand the Biden Administration seems to want to put it front and centre. That's the thing I don't get. Ask a guy in middle America or downtown Nairobi, and they'll shake their head and call it all madness. We're not that different..

 

[Moxie]

actually it was trending on twitter. I just didn't feel the need to comment about it here.

Fine, but just now. Point being, it's been a day of recognition since 2009, but it was the right-wing that's suddenly calling attention to it and trying to manufacture outrage. OK, it's an election year, so that's their tactic. And yes, it falls on Easter this year, but you do the math on how many years it's going to take for Mar. 31 to fall on a Sunday again, and for that to coincide exactly with Easter, which moves around.

By the way I think most people would be willing to ignore it as they have their own lives to live. The problem is that weirdly Dems choose to push it in everyone's faces. Trust me on this, we all want to be left alone. If it's out of sight it's out of mind. But for some reason I don't understand the Biden Administration seems to want to put it front and centre. That's the thing I don't get. Ask a guy in middle America or downtown Nairobi, and they'll shake their head and call it all madness. We're not that different..

You don't consider the calculation on the side of Biden. He's got to appeal to young people. To get them to vote, and not to vote for RFK, Jr., or some other 3rd party candidate. They care about abortion, the environment, their student loan debt, and yes, they are far more in favor of trans rights than, IMO, the middle of America is against them, at least when it comes to the vote. I don't think that that guy in Middle America who is bothered by Biden's statement on trans rights was otherwise waiting to vote for him. That guy, and it mostly is a guy, was already against Biden for his stance on abortion, and gay marriage, and the border and the economy, which his still thinks is in the toilet, because he's told to, and because he generally thinks the "direction of the country" is wrong. He's not sifting out trans rights, specifically. Young people, however, will hear that as a positive.

 

[Federberg]

Fine, but just now. Point being, it's been a day of recognition since 2009, but it was the right-wing that's suddenly calling attention to it and trying to manufacture outrage. OK, it's an election year, so that's their tactic. And yes, it falls on Easter this year, but you do the math on how many years it's going to take for Mar. 31 to fall on a Sunday again, and for that to coincide exactly with Easter, which moves around.

You don't consider the calculation on the side of Biden. He's got to appeal to young people. To get them to vote, and not to vote for RFK, Jr., or some other 3rd party candidate. They care about abortion, the environment, their student loan debt, and yes, they are far more in favor of trans rights than, IMO, the middle of America is against them, at least when it comes to the vote. I don't think that that guy in Middle America who is bothered by Biden's statement on trans rights was otherwise waiting to vote for him. That guy, and it mostly is a guy, was already against Biden for his stance on abortion, and gay marriage, and the border and the economy, which his still thinks is in the toilet, because he's told to, and because he generally thinks the "direction of the country" is wrong. He's not sifting out trans rights, specifically. Young people, however, will hear that as a positive.

I think it's less of a consensus amongst the young than you think. And for sure the generation that follows is completely the other way. This is a minority appeal thing @Moxie. It doesn't have the appeal you think it does. The right to do what you want part yes I would agree with you. But this isn't like gay rights. There's an imposition on others that hasn't existed in any other type of issue. When concessions are being forced on people who just want to mind their own business, or when it flies in the face of science or common sense then there's an issue. There's a difference between live and let live and live and be imposed upon..

 

[Moxie]

I think it's less of a consensus amongst the young than you think. And for sure the generation that follows is completely the other way. This is a minority appeal thing @Moxie. It doesn't have the appeal you think it does. The right to do what you want part yes I would agree with you. But this isn't like gay rights. There's an imposition on others that hasn't existed in any other type of issue. When concessions are being forced on people who just want to mind their own business, or when it flies in the face of science or common sense then there's an issue. There's a difference between live and let live and live and be imposed upon..

I'm not saying it has a huge appeal. I'm saying that I think the harm it does, politically, is less than you think. I don't think it breaks out from the pack of "culture wars" issues that already have people on one side of them. As to the great imposition, I don't see it, but I don't want to re-litigate it here. I know more than I care to about what the rest of you think about it, already.

 

[Federberg]

I'm not saying it has a huge appeal. I'm saying that I think the harm it does, politically, is less than you think. I don't think it breaks out from the pack of "culture wars" issues that already have people on one side of them. As to the great imposition, I don't see it, but I don't want to re-litigate it here. I know more than I care to about what the rest of you think about it, already.

agreed, let's not relitigate it. But... I'm trying to tell you that you're seriously... seriously underestimating how much this social change bothers the average person. I think you live in a bubble where all that stuff seems normal to you. I'm telling you.. it... is... not... normal

 

[Moxie]

agreed, let's not relitigate it. But... I'm trying to tell you that you're seriously... seriously underestimating how much this social change bothers the average person. I think you live in a bubble where all that stuff seems normal to you. I'm telling you.. it... is... not... normal

But we're not discussing whether or not it's normal. We're discussing the politics surrounding it, particular to this year, most especially, I believe. I'm responding to your post which begins, "It's bad politics, Moxie..." I'm debating with you why I don't think it's as bad, or as consequential as you think. You think it doesn't mean enough to the young to say so, which is a guess. I say the calculation may be an appeal to the young, which is also a guess. However, I do think my point is valid that some average American Joe who is bothered enough by this not to vote for Joe Biden also has a lot of things that are higher up on his list that already disqualifies Biden for him. I don't think "trans rights" is making the polls in any way as a single issue voter topic. In addition to that, if the right wouldn't make such a bugaboo of it, most people wouldn't think of it at all.

I do get tired of being told that I live in a bubble. Don't you live in London? (You used to anyway, and obviously you don't have to say.) Of anyone, I'm more affected by trans people than most in the US, because I live in proximity to a larger percentage of them than most. Which also means things that affect the laws in my city and state and, arguably, my taxes, if you think of healthcare. Meaning I have a reason to care, one way or the other, whereas a lot of people in the US deal with it in theory...and those, negatively, because they're told to by the likes of Fox News. It's manufactured fear, which I should think you'd be against.

Obviously, it's not "normal," if only 5% of the population is trans, or whatever the percentage is. I didn't say it seems normal to me. I simply don't have a problem abiding the choices of others. I believe you said the same.

 

[britbox]

You put 3-4 posts above about conspiracy theories, and you expect me to buy your line that this is a top-down movement? Your line that "the fact it's driven top-down is surely beyond dispute" is the same kind of line Front uses all the time to back up his ideas. It's a rather cheap debating gambit. "I'm right, and there's do dispute." The Stonewall riots were led by transgender activists. That was an organic movement. And they've been in the movement ever since. The only thing "top-down" about it is the fear drummed up against it by the far-right to scare folks like you. As you rightly say above...it doesn't hurt you. If you'd practice a little more "live and let live," then you wouldn't be part of the problem. And the problem is that people are letting other folks scare them into thinking that something is being taken away from them.

Moxie, you keep spitting out the words "Conspiracy Theory" for anything that gets in the way of your line of thinking. It's poor form and "gov-speak".

Links in those previous "conspiracy" posts refer to Wiki pages that in turn source government admissions. I've also provided links in the past to government documents, UN policies, WEF documents that detail Central Banking Digital Currencies (Programmable), AI targetted "healthcare", Gene Therapy/Modification, Agenda 2030 and Transhumanism.

These are indeed conspiracies, but certainly not conspiracy theories. Nearly all of those things I mentioned 4 years ago are being passed into legislation right now. Hardly a conspiracy theory any longer. And the "theories" were formed from reading gov docs anyway.

I actually got told of most of this stuff in the 1980s by another "conspiracy theorist". All of their theories came true, or are in the process of doing.

However, there is nothing wrong with a conspiracy theory - it should always be an open conversation and people should use critical thinking and pattern recognition to form a considered opinion.

Just repeating verbatim what comes through the TV screen is essentially behaving like an automatom and doesn't befit the human race. Indeed, parrots have already been put on the planet. When governments are saying "we are the truth and nothing but the truth" then you have a tyranny. Maybe you like that kind of world, I don't.

Why anybody trusts governments is beyond me. These same governments have been experimenting on the populaces for decades.

Here's just one example, involving over 80 institutions.

MKUltra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But, hey "trust the government".

I won't waste time compiling a long forensic list of documents for you here on the various agendas in play - I've done things like that in the past and you've deferred them and then mumbled a few months later - oh there was nothing of interest...

The last time I was asked to "step up to the plate", was to demonstrate sound frequency technologies showing cures for cancer, weather modification, physical matter transformation, generation of earthquakes, cyclones and quantum locking. If there was nothing to interest you among that lot then your bar of interest is set so high, that I couldn't possibly attain it anyway.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, you keep spitting out the words "Conspiracy Theory" for anything that gets in the way of your line of thinking. It's poor form and "gov-speak".

Links in those previous "conspiracy" posts refer to Wiki pages that in turn source government admissions. I've also provided links in the past to government documents, UN policies, WEF documents that detail Central Banking Digital Currencies (Programmable), AI targetted "healthcare", Gene Therapy/Modification, Agenda 2030 and Transhumanism.

These are indeed conspiracies, but certainly not conspiracy theories. Nearly all of those things I mentioned 4 years ago are being passed into legislation right now. Hardly a conspiracy. And the "theories" were formed from reading gov docs anyway.

I actually got told of most of this stuff in the 1980s by another "conspiracy theorist". All of their theories came true, or are in the process of doing.

However, there is nothing wrong with a conspiracy theory - it should always be an open conversation and people should use critical thinking and pattern recognition to form a considered opinion.

Just repeating verbatim what comes through the TV screen is essentially behaving like an automatom and doesn't befit the human race. Indeed, parrots have already been put on the planet. When governments are saying "we are the truth and nothing but the truth" then you have a tyranny. Maybe you like that kind of world, I don't.

Why anybody trusts governments is beyond me. These same governments have been experimenting on the populaces for decades.

Here's just one example, involving over 80 institutions.

MKUltra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But, hey "trust the government".

I won't waste time compiling a long forensic list of documents for you here on the various agendas in play - I've done things like that in the past and you've deferred them and then mumbled a few months later - oh there was nothing of interest...

The last time I was asked to "step up to the plate", was to demonstrate sound frequency technologies showing cures for cancer, weather modification, physical matter transformation, generation of earthquakes, cyclones and quantum locking. If there was nothing to interest you among that lot then your bar of interest is set so high, that I couldn't possibly attain it anyway.

Conspiracy theories are for people who need order in their world, and can't accept that there is sometimes just chaos, and shit just happens. People who need order in their world are also inclined to dictators. Same people who don't trust governments. I'm sorry that democracy is chaotic, but it is. But it does work, and is a better system than anything else. IMO.

I told you I read about that "sound frequencies" stuff you posted before. I think it's bullshit. Sorry.

 

[Federberg]

 

[britbox]

Conspiracy theories are for people who need order in their world, and can't accept that there is sometimes just chaos, and shit just happens. People who need order in their world are also inclined to dictators. Same people who don't trust governments. I'm sorry that democracy is chaotic, but it is. But it does work, and is a better system than anything else. IMO.

I told you I read about that "sound frequencies" stuff you posted before. I think it's bullshit. Sorry.

You don't need to apologise. I gave you experiments you can try for yourself... so you didn't need to think or believe, but rather "know".

On that basis, I also find it strange that you believe in Wifi, Radio or Microwave either.

This might bridge the gap for you.

Directed-energy weapon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway, you can only take a horse to water...

Oh, and Democracy is an illusion at best. One day you might be inclined to look behind the curtain... Wizard of Oz style.

 

[britbox]

Conspiracy theories are for people who need order in their world, and can't accept that there is sometimes just chaos, and shit just happens. People who need order in their world are also inclined to dictators. Same people who don't trust governments. I'm sorry that democracy is chaotic, but it is. But it does work, and is a better system than anything else. IMO.

I told you I read about that "sound frequencies" stuff you posted before. I think it's bullshit. Sorry.

Ordo Ab Chao - look it up.

 

[Moxie]

Ordo Ab Chao - look it up.

I did...and this enlightens me how? Am I going to be saved by a Norwegian metal band?

 

[Fiero425]

The World is so slow & DIM! They're always looking to be outraged in some way; resulting into disingenuousness in this case! I suppose people are just plain ignorant of the fact, Trans Day has been on March 31st for the last 15 years! I didn't know that! Easter hasn't ever fallen in March; normally in April to go along w/ a great Spring day! People need to blame the calendar, not Biden!

 

[Moxie]

Once again, you take to twitter for one person's opinion over the truth. This is what the President said, which has nothing to do with prioritizing anything over Easter. It doesn't even mention Easter. It mentions respect, and rights. I hope you read it:

A Proclamation on Transgender Day of Visibility, 2024 | The White House

On Transgender Day of Visibility, we honor the extraordinary courage and contributions of transgender Americans and reaffirm our Nation's commitment to

www.whitehouse.gov

It's lovely if all of this led Ms.Blaire White to church for the first time. It is Easter, so what better time? It's a bit weird to politicize it, and put it on show on twitter, even before she gives church a try, but the Lord works in mysterious ways. He's got Trump selling bibles, after all.

 

[Moxie]

You don't need to apologise. I gave you experiments you can try for yourself... so you didn't need to think or believe, but rather "know".

On that basis, I also find it strange that you believe in Wifi, Radio or Microwave either.

This might bridge the gap for you.

Directed-energy weapon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway, you can only take a horse to water...

Oh, and Democracy is an illusion at best. One day you might be inclined to look behind the curtain... Wizard of Oz style.

Democracy has been a philosophy in play for millennia. It's not a mere illusion. The Wizard of Oz, however, is a movie.

You seek "order out of chaos" but that tends to incline you to the conspiratorial and, sadly, the domination of strongman leaders. You want someone to tell you the answers. You pretend to be an original thinker, but, let's face it, these are other people's theories, and they come from random corners of the internet. Cite me great philosophical debates against democracy. Plato had one, but it was elitist, and is pretty old.

 

[britbox]

Democracy has been a philosophy in play for millennia. It's not a mere illusion. The Wizard of Oz, however, is a movie.

You seek "order out of chaos" but that tends to incline you to the conspiratorial and, sadly, the domination of strongman leaders. You want someone to tell you the answers. You pretend to be an original thinker, but, let's face it, these are other people's theories, and they come from random corners of the internet. Cite me great philosophical debates against democracy. Plato had one, but it was elitist, and is pretty old.

Your democracy is an illusion. As no doubt you will call Russia's "democracy" an illusion. Democracy in itself is a noble idea. Unfortunately like all systems operated by humans, it is open to corruption, and most democracies are utterly corrupted. More like three wolves and two sheep voting on what to have for dinner. And you're actually a Republic rather than a traditional democracy if we want to get specific about it.

Order from chaos is the particular mantra of a brotherhood... yet your research led you to a Norwegian rock band... Never mind, lol.

I don't "pretend" to be an original thinker or claim to be one. Most ideas have been discussed before. However, I am an interested in tech, and see the patterns replicated in ancient antiquity, and if you actually looked at Plato and the great philosophers there is a lot in there. Indeed, the stuff flying around from the alchemists hundreds of years ago is perhaps way more advanced than you can imagine... although if you don't know how your own Wifi works then it's probably not something you need to be looking at anyway.

However, as you like dealing in "facts" - look at your national debt and the state of your cities. These predators masquerding as your saviours are creaming off millions and laughing all the way to the bank, while you and your ilk beg for more of their "solutions". "Govern me harder master". With regard to Plato, step out of the bloody cave.

 

[Federberg]

Once again, you take to twitter for one person's opinion over the truth. This is what the President said, which has nothing to do with prioritizing anything over Easter. It doesn't even mention Easter. It mentions respect, and rights. I hope you read it:

A Proclamation on Transgender Day of Visibility, 2024 | The White House

On Transgender Day of Visibility, we honor the extraordinary courage and contributions of transgender Americans and reaffirm our Nation's commitment to

www.whitehouse.gov

It's lovely if all of this led Ms.Blaire White to church for the first time. It is Easter, so what better time? It's a bit weird to politicize it, and put it on show on twitter, even before she gives church a try, but the Lord works in mysterious ways. He's got Trump selling bibles, after all.

once again you presume. I was on the twitter machine while I was watching NBA League pass and happened to see that come thru (I'm a GSW fan, and if I'm watching them I keep an eye on Dubs twitter, sue me!). That tweet was a perfect example of the stuff I've seen in recent days. This all started when you claimed I wasn't aware of this issue until I saw @britbox 's post. Can you STOP doing that? It's extremely obnoxious to persistently presume you know what people are thinking when you clearly don't. Stick to the debate!

And PS... I don't fucking need to read it. It doesn't matter how long the stupid thing has been going on for. Personally I think all of this stuff is daft as shite. Unless it's promoting some sort of health issue like prostate cancer these things are just a waste of time. Black History Month my fucking arse... Morgan Freeman said it best... every month is my month! The point is... whether this has been around for 15 years is irrelevant. There is a growing awareness of all the liberal shite that's being forced down the throats of ordinary folk who just want to live their lives. Trump represents too much of an existential threat... but and I'll repeat, the moment that fever is gone, I wouldn't be shocked to see a colossal cultural backlash, which was my point

 

[britbox]

once again you presume. I was on the twitter machine while I was watching NBA League pass and happened to see that come thru (I'm a GSW fan, and if I'm watching them I keep an eye on Dubs twitter, sue me!). That tweet was a perfect example of the stuff I've seen in recent days. This all started when you claimed I wasn't aware of this issue until I saw @britbox 's post. Can you STOP doing that? It's extremely obnoxious to persistently presume you know what people are thinking when you clearly don't. Stick to the debate!

And PS... I don't fucking need to read it. It doesn't matter how long the stupid thing has been going on for. Personally I think all of this stuff is daft as shite. Unless it's promoting some sort of health issue like prostate cancer these things are just a waste of time. Black History Month my fucking arse... Morgan Freeman said it best... every month is my month! The point is... whether this has been around for 15 years is irrelevant. There is a growing awareness of all the liberal shite that's being forced down the throats of ordinary folk who just want to live their lives. Trump represents too much of an existential threat... but and I'll repeat, the moment that fever is gone, I wouldn't be shocked to see a colossal cultural backlash, which was my point

Yep, good summary. Most of us don't really care if some bloke wants to stick a dress on and pretend he's a woman. Each to their own. However, the ridiculous sensationalism of it all, endless celebrations, flags, mardi gras every week, paedo porn books in schools, real women getting attacked everywhere... erm, no thanks.

 

[Moxie]

once again you presume. I was on the twitter machine while I was watching NBA League pass and happened to see that come thru (I'm a GSW fan, and if I'm watching them I keep an eye on Dubs twitter, sue me!). That tweet was a perfect example of the stuff I've seen in recent days. This all started when you claimed I wasn't aware of this issue until I saw @britbox 's post. Can you STOP doing that? It's extremely obnoxious to persistently presume you know what people are thinking when you clearly don't. Stick to the debate!

And PS... I don't fucking need to read it. It doesn't matter how long the stupid thing has been going on for. Personally I think all of this stuff is daft as shite. Unless it's promoting some sort of health issue like prostate cancer these things are just a waste of time. Black History Month my fucking arse... Morgan Freeman said it best... every month is my month! The point is... whether this has been around for 15 years is irrelevant. There is a growing awareness of all the liberal shite that's being forced down the throats of ordinary folk who just want to live their lives. Trump represents too much of an existential threat... but and I'll repeat, the moment that fever is gone, I wouldn't be shocked to see a colossal cultural backlash, which was my point

I know this topic upsets you, clearly. I thought we were going to talk about the impact on politics, though I took it to mean in this election cycle, as I said. There may or may not be a colossal backlash down the road, but I've made my points about this year. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Federberg]

I know this topic upsets you, clearly. I thought we were going to talk about the impact on politics, though I took it to mean in this election cycle, as I said. There may or may not be a colossal backlash down the road, but I've made my points about this year. We'll see how it goes.

the topic doesn't upset me. Can you please stop trying to diagnose my mood? I'm happy to discuss the topic. If you go back to my initial comment, I said I thought it was bad politics. I maintain that. It's Easter. Biden's Easter tweet was beyond perfect. That was pretty much for the whole country. Tweeting about transgenderism wasn't. It was stupid. He didn't need to go there, he's not winning new voters doing that. He might lose some though, that's my point. That's why it's bad politics. I'm well aware that it's his campaign team controlling his twitter account. I'm not actually going at Biden directly. It concerns me that he has some virtue signalling idiots controlling his account. But I wonder whether his account tweeted anything about prostrate cancer last September. If he didn't, but he posted about this transgender day nonsense then he needs to fire his team