US Politics Thread

Kieran

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I'm seriously trying to understand the logic.
:lulz1::lulz1: Good luck with that!

But really, it’s only reasonable and fair to try to understand these things. I grapple with them myself. The thing is, people have preferences, when it comes to attraction. These preferences aren’t “bigotry” but I know that women will look at a man and be attracted based upon certain things that arouse attraction. They might like hunky meatball jocks, or skinny ascetic intellectuals. This doesn’t make them bigots against hunks if they prefer the geeks. But we could pursue this like of questioning with utterly bad faith and decide that yes actually, it does make them bigoted. They’re repulsed by rippling six packs and thunder thighs. Therefore they’re bigoted.

This is the unnatural and yes, bigoted, way of categorising attraction. Some men love Asian girls and aren’t attracted to Africans. Is this bigotry? In bad faith, we would say so, and if we’re over-exposed to certain rotten race hustling politics, we would definitely say so, and this is where the issue lies, me thinketh.

As for feminists and the attempts to attack Rowling and Navratilova, I totally agree. The trans lobby is the biggest threat to women I can imagine, and it’s also a threat to gay men and lesbians, but nobody wants to take them on except conservatives, and “TERFS”…
 

Kieran

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I used it as an example of an extreme view that I've heard - so yes, some people believe this and advocate for it, but this not to say that all or even most trans people feel this way.

And that's part of the problem that I'm pointing to: extreme views are highlighted that wedge people apart. We see this on abortion, where a small minority of pro-choice people think that babies can be aborted even at full term childbirth, while a small minority of pro-lifers think that jerking off is murder. 99% of people are somewhere in between, and I'm guessing that 90% of people could probably accept a middle-ground (e.g. no abortions after the first trimester, except in the case of danger to the mother and/or rape - which I think is roughly what Tulsi Gabbard has advocated for, and been called "right-wing" because of it).

The article Kieran posted highlights this problem: "However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves."

Meaning, it is a minority of trans women and activists who are pushing this, which muddies the water for those who are more reasonable, wedging people further.
But they’re aided by huge institutions, including the Democrats, who have been willingly agreeing to and promoting this insanity. Along with universities, most of the mainstream media, massive corporations, and so on. This tiny rowdy demented minority are winning. Imagine a young child exposed to relentless images and propaganda on television and in school from the trans lobby: well, it’s only understandable that they’ll grow up in a new “reality”, with a new version of “truth”, brought to them by people who don’t believe in either truth or reality, but rather, they believe in their opposites…
 

El Dude

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but then what's the difference with a gay guy calling someone homophobic for refusing to have sex with him because he's not attracted to men? I'm seriously trying to understand the logic. It makes absolutely no sense.

Am I the only one thinking that feminists are the dumbest fucks out there to not be actively fighting against this? I see Martina Navratilova has taken heat on the issue advocating for women in the past, and isn't this also the reason why people keep trying to cancel J K Rowling?

This is why keeping things simple and rational is for the best. You get born a dude, you're a dude! Sorry if it makes you sad. People who are born blind are blind. Their feelings about the issue are irrelevant, it's life. Why is the other so complicated? Very weird...
Read the article that Kieran posted - it is a good one, and goes into a lot of this. I think the logic is something like "genital preference equates with deeply embedded transphobia," or some such nonsense.

This is something I've heard out there, about how this differs from other civil rights issues in the past. Gay activists were going after equal rights - the right to marriage, to not be discriminated against, etc, but they weren't trying to change peoples inner worldview, other than to get to the point of acceptance. Meaning, they mainly just wanted people to get to a place of "live and let live," and acceptance in society. Trans activists--at least the extreme ones--are actually trying to change peoples' inner thoughts, even to the point of changing their sexual attraction (or at least feel guilt for not being attracted to trans people).
 
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El Dude

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But they’re aided by huge institutions, including the Democrats, who have been willingly agreeing to and promoting this insanity. Along with universities, most of the mainstream media, massive corporations, and so on. This tiny rowdy demented minority are winning. Imagine a young child exposed to relentless images and propaganda on television and in school from the trans lobby: well, it’s only understandable that they’ll grow up in a new “reality”, with a new version of “truth”, brought to them by people who don’t believe in either truth or reality, but rather, they believe in their opposites…
Yeah, I hear you, and it is very worrying, especially for the many young people who might identity as something as just a phase, but then go down the rabbit hole to the point of actual genital mutilation, and then as a adults they come to and think, "WTF have I done?!"

Meaning, I personally have no issue with anyone doing whatever they want with their own bodies and lives, as long as they don't harm others. Identify as a different gender or Martian or hedgehog...its your life. But we simply don't know how many supposed trans children will actually remain trans, or if it is just a passing phase - trying things out, a fad. Like kids go through.
 
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Moxie

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Taking a moment away from freaking out about trans folks, Trump has been subpoenaed by Congress. Anyone watch today?
 
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Moxie

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Just a smidge! The hearings have been moving at a snail's pace & it'll do no good to be hopeful as Trump will probably get away with it! :sneezing-face: :fearful-face:
It's not like I think he'll go to jail, or anything, but important to hold this up to scrutiny, and for the sake of history.
 
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Federberg

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It’s genius for the Dems. When public attention is on Trump it’s bad for the GOP. When it’s focused on Biden it’s bad for Dems
 

Federberg

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But don’t think the sly dig about “freaking out” was missed. The fact you still don’t get it is the reason that Trump could probably steal a nuke and half the population will still hesitate about viewing Dems as a better option :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 
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Kieran

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But don’t think the sly dig about “freaking out” was missed. The fact you still don’t get it is the reason that Trump could probably steal a nuke and half the population will still hesitate about viewing Dems as a better option :face-with-tears-of-joy:
Exactly. And the trans lobby is a far bigger threat to America - and the west - than Trump. Everyone should be freaking out about it…
 

tented

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Exactly. And the trans lobby is a far bigger threat to America - and the west - than Trump. Everyone should be freaking out about it…
Trump is a much bigger threat to America. As Nancy Pelosi said, we can survive one term of Trump but not two. If Trump were to be reelected and then put into place all of the people he wants, it would be the end of the democracy. I’m not saying that to be shocking. He and his ilk want to wrest control of voting away from the citizens. For example, they want to put into place secretaries of states (who are in charge of each state’s elections) who would take control of elections, and decide them regardless of the vote count. Nearly 300 Republicans running for office this year are election deniers: they STILL think the 2020 election was stolen. These are the people who want to be able to put rules into place which would allow them to decide the winners. That would be the end of democracy. That’s far more dangerous to America than anything the trans community can do.
 
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Kieran

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Trump is a much bigger threat to America. As Nancy Pelosi said, we can survive one term of Trump but not two. If Trump were to be reelected and then put into place all of the people he wants, it would be the end of the democracy. I’m not saying that to be shocking. He and his ilk want to wrest control of voting away from the citizens. For example, they want to put into place secretaries of states (who are in charge of each state’s elections) who would take control of elections, and decide them regardless of the vote count. Nearly 300 Republicans running for office this year are election deniers: they STILL think the 2020 election was stolen. These are the people who want to be able to put rules into place which would allow them to decide the winners. That would be the end of democracy. That’s far more dangerous to America than anything the trans community can do.
I agree that Trump is a problem, a horrible one, but you mention election deniers - your country is overrun by truth deniers. Imagine American ten years from now. In a short time already you’ve become a State of Untruth. Your education system, medical system, military all willingly participate in a coup against reality, and your media attack and silence anyone who disagrees with this. The tiny trans lobby have won, and are only going to become more vicious, more ruthless in pressing home their advantage. Women, children, gays are all going to face an even more horrible “reality” than a Trump win can bring. Children will continue to be medically abused, women will be marginalised completely. Already we see cowardly feminists who have insanely conceded that Cocks In Frocks have as much rights as real women.

Could be that Trump wins the next election, but already before that your system has been hacked by a lobby that makes you even more a laughing stock than Trump has. (Or as much as Trump, to be fair it’s difficult to be worse!). And we don’t even have to mention the violent leftist militias - BLM, Antifa - who were encouraged to destroy your cities in “mostly peaceful protests” By both Biden, the Democrat leadership, and the media. The right wing militias which are equally pursuing an unjust and deranged war against your own people, your democracy, and truth.

Your country is in trouble, we can agree on that, but if Americans continues to accept relativism on such a scale, it won’t exist in 50 years, even if Trump dropped dead tomorrow…
 
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Moxie

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Like most Americans, I grew up being told to "vote for the lesser of two evils." It doesn't matter if you're conservative or progressive, you vote for the lesser evil, because the other side are a bunch of red commies who are going to turn everyone gay or trans, or they're theocratic fascists who are going to force everyone to carry rape-babies to term.
This is rather extremist rhetoric, don't you think? I don't think most Americans generally vote for the "lesser of two evils." They often get behind an actual candidate. The kind of place where you might be right, it the bolded above, is very new, IMO.
My parents were counter-cultural types/hippies, so for me it was always "vote Blue no matter who." But I have since gotten off that track, and finally voted third party for the first time in 2016.

But I have since come to think that, in the long run, this approach actually perpetuates the problem and just reifies the two-party system. If you vote for one party or candidate just because the other guy is worse, you are essentially telling your choice that he/she/they only have to be slightly better than the other guy.
Again, I don't think that's the only way people vote. Such a cynical approach to politics.
So I think the only way it will change is if enough people say, "enough is enough" and stop voting for the Dem or Rep. In theory, it could lead to either the birth of new parties that have more than a snowball's chance in hell, and/or reformation of the parties so that they offer better candidates, and/or don't sabotage any candidate that doesn't adhere to the party line.
It would be useful if we could get off the two-party system, but we'd need the parties to go for it, which won't happen. Or soon. More and more localities and states ? are adopting a ranked-choice voting, which could eventually give more power to 3rd or alternate parties. I am in favor of this. If it is adopted by enough states, it could send 3rd party candidates to the House and Senate and eventually make the change. Probably not before I'm dead, though. But, still....
On the other hand, I think the problem is deeper than any politician, any party, or really any political system. People focus on "capitalism vs. socialism," when both are corruptible.
I agree that there is a focus on that in the US, when an amalgam of both is more desirable, IMO. All things are corruptible, but the US focus on the notion that it's either capitalism or socialism is a false construct. We have plenty of socialism in this country, which people want. Medicare? Medicaid? VA benefits?
Or people endlessly squabble about traditional vs progressive values, when 90% of people agree on a lot of basic things...and all of the wedge issues are framed to highlight and increase division among the populace
This, I agree with. Most people, in most countries, just want to live and let live. We agree on the basics, and don't tend to want to curtail the rights of others. Everyone just wants to be able to live within their means, raise their kids, be treated fairly.
(e.g. "You're transphobic if you won't date trans people" or "no abortions, even if you're raped or going to die").
This is hyperbole beyond what was necessary, and I see you freaked Federberg out with it. Was that necessary? Does it have any basis in fact? Though the 2nd part has some truth in legislature.
I mean, Noam Chomsky have written extensively about this: how a government propagandizes through dividing the people, so that they think the problem is the other half of the citizenry, rather than the psychopathic corporate oligarchs that both Republicans and Democrats ultimately serve.
This is, in part, the problem of only capitalism and not a mix-in of socialism. It goes way back to US government (and conceding to the Confederacy,)
dividing poor blacks and poor whites to keep them from rising up against the power elite.
 

Moxie

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But don’t think the sly dig about “freaking out” was missed. The fact you still don’t get it is the reason that Trump could probably steal a nuke and half the population will still hesitate about viewing Dems as a better option :face-with-tears-of-joy:
It wasn't that sly, and I didn't expect you to miss it. Neverminding the US electorate, our small sampling here finds a no small amount of getting agitated about trans people. Of all the things to be concerned about in the world, trans people gets a lot of traffic here, and particularly from you. Even when the topic is other, you zero in on one comment. I don't think it's the issue that will tank the Democrats in the US midterms. It's going to come down to: a) women (and men) turn out to vote down Republicans on the abortion issue, as much as anything, or b) Republicans will get people out on the economy. That's the simplistic answer, but you'll have to dig way down to get to the culture wars into where people care about the trans issue.
 

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It wasn't that sly, and I didn't expect you to miss it. Neverminding the US electorate, our small sampling here finds a no small amount of getting agitated about trans people. Of all the things to be concerned about in the world, trans people gets a lot of traffic here, and particularly from you. Even when the topic is other, you zero in on one comment. I don't think it's the issue that will tank the Democrats in the US midterms. It's going to come down to: a) women (and men) turn out to vote down Republicans on the abortion issue, as much as anything, or b) Republicans will get people out on the economy. That's the simplistic answer, but you'll have to dig way down to get to the culture wars into where people care about the trans issue.
I know you're being intentionally obtuse, but I'll still respond to you :) No one is saying that the trans issue will drive voters. I happen to think inflation will be the primary focus unless Dems can find some way to deflect. Something they're not particularly good at by the way. No! We're saying woke-ness is a progressive problem. I would probably have just ignored you as I know how monumentally stubborn you are. But my old buddy Bill Maher made exactly the same point. Since he's probably too unwoke for you, I'll do you the great favour of putting the link here. He says it perfectly..."the worse a candidate is, the more it says to Democrats, do you see how much we don't like what you're selling?" He has a point!

 
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Fiero425

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I know you're being intentionally obtuse, but I'll still respond to you :) No one is saying that the trans issue will drive voters. I happen to think inflation will be the primary focus unless Dems can find some way to deflect. Something they're not particularly good at by the way. No! We're saying woke-ness is a progressive problem. I would probably have just ignored you as I know how monumentally stubborn you are. But my old buddy Bill Maher made exactly the same point. Since he's probably too unwoke for you, I'll do you the great favour of putting the link here. He says it perfectly..."the worse a candidate is, the more it says to Democrats, do you see how much we don't like what you're selling?" He has a point!



Unhappy with things doesn't or shouldn't give license to give up on our Democracy! I'm appalled and disgusted with my country; allowing such a creature anywhere near the presidency! I know I keep hearing forgiveness is necessary to move on, but it isn't getting any better! It would make sense if the nutzos out there believed they made a mistake, but that isn't happening! These idiots are doubling down; looking for loser, stupid candidates trying to prove a point that just isn't there! I also burned my feminist card in 2016 when women supported Trump more than Hillary! These are the same people b!tching about a lack of representation, but as the majority, fewer women have won elections statewide and around the country! That's whack AF and I can't wait to leave this rotten Earth with this many stupid arse people on it! This phenomenon is happening everywhere, not just the USA! :sneezing-face: :zippermouthface::yawningface::fearful-face::astonished-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
 
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Kieran

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Unhappy with things doesn't or shouldn't give license to give up on our Democracy! I'm appalled and disgusted with my country; allowing such a creature anywhere near the presidency! I know I keep hearing forgiveness is necessary to move on, but it isn't getting any better! It would make sense if the nutzos out there believed they made a mistake, but that isn't happening! These idiots are doubling down; looking for loser, stupid candidates trying to prove a point that just isn't there! I also burned my feminist card in 2016 when women supported Trump more than Hillary! These are the same people b!tching about a lack of representation, but as the majority, fewer women have won elections statewide and around the country! That's whack AF and I can't wait to leave this rotten Earth with this many stupid arse people on it! This phenomenon is happening everywhere, not just the USA! :sneezing-face: :zippermouthface::yawningface::fearful-face::astonished-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
I kind of agree with you a lot here, and disagree with Bill Maher, unusually, because he’s been killing it recently. I get the logic, as @Federberg quotes him, ."the worse a candidate is, the more it says to Democrats, do you see how much we don't like what you're selling?" I can see the logic of this but an even better approach would surely be to put in good candidates, if you can find them, and not loonies, liars and wife beaters…
 
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Fiero425

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I kind of agree with you a lot here, and disagree with Bill Maher, unusually, because he’s been killing it recently. I get the logic, as @Federberg quotes him, ."the worse a candidate is, the more it says to Democrats, do you see how much we don't like what you're selling?" I can see the logic of this but an even better approach would surely be to put in good candidates, if you can find them, and not loonies, liars and wife beaters…

I was such a fan of Mahar's and I still watch "Real Time" every friday, but he made me very unhappy going back to his endorsement of Ralph Nader! The good times were rolling with Clinton and his economic based adminstation! It wasn't enough for him and sabotaged Gore back in 2000 allowing "W" to come in and turn the fk'n country upside down! It just couldn't get much worse with the economy instantly going into the toilet, the stock market crash, & of course 911! All these things could have been avoided, but no one brings it up now! I was one that almost moved abroad; actually flew to Europe scouting areas in 2001! If not for my elderly parents, I probably would be there now! I had already turned down a position in Australia back in '97 for that reason! I regret it everyday! This country has been a fk'n mess for the last 20 years and only getting worse with Trump-ites out there trashing Democracy everywhere they can in the name of conservatism, White Nationalists, misogynists, & other haters of independence & freedom! :sneezing-face: :zippermouthface::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
 
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Kieran

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I was such a fan of Mahar's and I still watch "Real Time" every friday, but he made me very unhappy going back to his endorsement of Ralph Nader! The good times were rolling with Clinton and his economic based adminstation! It wasn't enough for him and sabotaged Gore back in 2000 allowing "W" to come in and turn the fk'n country upside down! It just couldn't get much worse with the economy instantly going into the toilet, the stock market crash, & of course 911! All these things could have been avoided, but no one brings it up now! I was one that almost moved abroad; actually flew to Europe scouting areas in 2001! If not for my elderly parents, I probably would be there now! I had already turned down a position in Australia back in '97 for that reason! I regret it everyday! This country has been a fk'n mess for the last 20 years and only getting worse with Trump-ites out there trashing Democracy everywhere they can in the name of conservatism, White Nationalists, misogynists, & other haters of independence & freedom! :sneezing-face: :zippermouthface::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-symbols-on-mouth:
Whereabouts in Europe did you look at to live in?
 

Fiero425

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Whereabouts in Europe did you look at to live in?

I traveled a a few miles outside of Amsterdam on a train and thought about settling in Haarlem! It seemed quite reminiscent of a Chicago suburb I lived in years ago called Oak Park! A mall area was almost an exact replica with cobblestone sidewalks like on Warmestradt! :yawningface: :fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
 
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