US Politics Thread

[Murat Baslamisli]

No, but I would love to go. Have you? I do know a lot of people who've been, so I understand the complications.

I have been there two times. Most beautiful beaches in the world (in my experience) lovely people living in miserable poverty . They cannot buy anything even if they had the money because things do not exist. While the top guys are living in luxury, just like in every communist nation, the everyday guys just exist. I brought over drum sticks, guitar strings , drum heads for the musicians I could find and I became their god pretty much because that stuff is next to impossible to get. My wife always brings clothing, baby stuff, women hygiene stuff and give it to the maids at the hotel and they cry with joy. Cuba is a big touristic destination for Canadians since we have no restrictions like the US to go there and everyone I know brings luggages of stuff to give to people.
Communism is a shitty idea in theory and a deadly one in practice. It is literally designed to kill the human spirit, its creativity, its potential. Seeing it first hand is one of the saddest things I have experienced in my whole life. Bernie could not survive one week in Cuba if he was a regular citizen. Castro, Chavez, Kim Jung Un, these are evil people. Did you know that the average Venezuelan lost 24 pounds of body weight in 2017 because there is no food and 90% live in absolute poverty?
I have no sympathy for anyone who remotely flirts with ideas of communism and Sanders has been doing that since day one. I am not talking about "social democracy" . That is his guise. Internet is full of his communist remarks and videos.

 

[Moxie]

I have been there two times. Most beautiful beaches in the world (in my experience) lovely people living in miserable poverty . They cannot buy anything even if they had the money because things do not exist. While the top guys are living in luxury, just like in every communist nation, the everyday guys just exist. I brought over drum sticks, guitar strings , drum heads for the musicians I could find and I became their god pretty much because that stuff is next to impossible to get. My wife always brings clothing, baby stuff, women hygiene stuff and give it to the maids at the hotel and they cry with joy. Cuba is a big touristic destination for Canadians since we have no restrictions like the US to go there and everyone I know brings luggages of stuff to give to people.
Communism is a shitty idea in theory and a deadly one in practice. It is literally designed to kill the human spirit, its creativity, its potential. Seeing it first hand is one of the saddest things I have experienced in my whole life. Bernie could not survive one week in Cuba if he was a regular citizen. Castro, Chavez, Kim Jung Un, these are evil people. Did you know that the average Venezuelan lost 24 pounds of body weight in 2017 because there is no food and 90% live in absolute poverty?
I have no sympathy for anyone who remotely flirts with ideas of communism and Sanders has been doing that since day one. I am not talking about "social democracy" . That is his guise. Internet is full of his communist remarks and videos.

I know a lot of these stories...I have friends with family in Cuba. And we don't live in a bubble here. You do understand, though, that a lot of the poverty in Cuba has to do with the ridiculous US embargo against them that has existed for almost 60 years, right? Cuba is 90 miles from Key West, FL, and yet we let them languish in poverty and separate families for some notion that their way of life is a threat to ours. That's not only childish, it's wrong and unnecessarily punitive. As I mentioned above, Castro and Cuba have really not been a credible threat to the US for decades. Their brand of Communism has been as isolated as Cuba has. What threat do they pose? On the other hand, do you have anything to say about the benefits to Cuba that Castro brought to the island, post-Batista? I mean, let's be fair. Cuba was a playground for the rich before Castro came in. US gambling concerns, as one example, taking money out and leaving nothing behind. Do you think that was better, or even OK? If you can resist partisan politics for a moment, can you not see that Castro's intention, at least in the beginning, was to raise his people up and out from under the yoke of the oppression of the rich, and, yes, US imperialism in Latin America?

 

[Federberg]

I AM concerned that Bernie seems to be heading for the nomination. I just want to point out the irony of your calling Sanders' talking about Cuba as "nonsense," when Trump is allowed to fall in love with Kim Jung Un and Vladimir Putin.

trouble is there isn't a large community of Koreans or Russians living in a purple State. Let's all remember that the point of campaigning in an election is to WIN the election. You get no points for being "right"

 

[Federberg]

However, if a Democrat talks about Socialism, which really does exist in this country, in some of our favorite policies, across the board and across all political stripes, he becomes vilified and unelectable.

don't you find it extraordinary that Sanders thinks he can lean into the socialist trope to get electoral traction? That to me is just monumentally stupid at the best of times. And at a moment where the incumbent is unpopular and people just want a change it is just pure negligence to provide the incumbent with a life line. What evidence is there in the last 50yrs of a Democrat winning the Presidency from the hard left? Every single Democratic winner, every single one of them has had to thread the needle as a centrist. This strategy would make some sense if in 2018 there was evidence that progressives had beat out Republicans in House seats, but the opposite is true. Moderates beat incumbent Republicans, while every single progressive that went up against an incumbent Republican lost handily. I just have one more question... what are these progressives drinking because I'm always looking for alternatives to single malts from Islay?....

 

[Federberg]

And yet we still pretend that the aging Cubans in Miami hold sway over how Florida votes. I'm not pretending that the rhetoric doesn't work against Bernie, and progressive Dems on Medicare for all, but I'm just pointing out that it doesn't make logical sense that they're perfectly happy to pull in with the other side of the Cold War and ignore/embrace what we used to fear or actively fought against.

forget about logic please. Just tell me what evidence there is that Bernie stands any chance of taking Florida after all this nonsense. I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic position

 

[Federberg]

As I said above, it's amazing that people will vote for what they used to hate and yet still hang onto some fear of "Socialism," against their own interests. If that's really who we've become, I don't know how you fight it, anyway. They've embraced the hate, the strongmen, and they don't care what it means to democracy. No concern that Russia is going to fiddle our elections, again, which I find one of the most appalling things.

yet this is where we are at this moment in time. I know of no electoral victories anywhere in the world against populism that has been won by those who haven't advocated a move back to the centre with technocratic competence. This is clearly not just an America specific political paradigm. It's bigger than that, yet it seems like only the Republicans understand the moment. Democrats right now seem to be living in a fantasy bubble. There is still a chance to right the ship, but by damn... they seem to be doing everything to present electoral success to Trump. And I'm not forgetting the colossal irony that Bloomberg and Steyer are taking away support from the moderate candidates. You have to laugh at the possibility that the billionaires intervention might be the very thing that makes Sanders victory all but certain

 

[tented]

I brought over drum sticks, guitar strings , drum heads for the musicians I could find and I became their god pretty much because that stuff is next to impossible to get. My wife always brings clothing, baby stuff, women hygiene stuff and give it to the maids at the hotel and they cry with joy. Cuba is a big touristic destination for Canadians since we have no restrictions like the US to go there and everyone I know brings luggages of stuff to give to people.

 

[Moxie]

trouble is there isn't a large community of Koreans or Russians living in a purple State

This is a false equivalency. The notion of Trump putting his arms around dictators should be a concern for ALL Americans, not just Korean-Americans or Russian-Americans. As to Florida and the Cuban-Americans, you have a somewhat out-dated notion. There is a big generational divide between the Grannies and Granpa's who left Cuba, and the younger Cuban-Americans in Miami. If you won't believe me, perhaps you'll believe a paper from your own country:

In Miami, Cuban Americans have the power to push the state to the left

Cuban immigrants were drawn to the Republican party in the 80s, but their children and grandchildren are shifting the vote

www.theguardian.com

Or for a deeper-dive into the generational issues, from a FL paper:

Poll shows generational, political divides among Cuban-Americans

Cuban-Americans in South Florida, long seen as a major source of Republican votes and holding monolithic, hard-line views toward the Cuban government, are changing. The latest Florida International…

www.sun-sentinel.com

 

[Moxie]

don't you find it extraordinary that Sanders thinks he can lean into the socialist trope to get electoral traction? That to me is just monumentally stupid at the best of times. And at a moment where the incumbent is unpopular and people just want a change it is just pure negligence to provide the incumbent with a life line. What evidence is there in the last 50yrs of a Democrat winning the Presidency from the hard left? Every single Democratic winner, every single one of them has had to thread the needle as a centrist. This strategy would make some sense if in 2018 there was evidence that progressives had beat out Republicans in House seats, but the opposite is true. Moderates beat incumbent Republicans, while every single progressive that went up against an incumbent Republican lost handily. I just have one more question... what are these progressives drinking because I'm always looking for alternatives to single malts from Islay?....

I agree with Bernie on a lot of things, and I admire him, in many ways. I've already said that I don't think he's our winning-ist candidate. But his is not a "socialist trope" that he's "leaning into." This is a guy who believes his own message. Say what you want to say about him, but he's lived and died by his beliefs. That's why, to a great extent, his followers are so loyal. His position as a "Democratic socialist," (which is different from a "Socialist," and I know you know better,) is one that he believes in firmly.

forget about logic please. Just tell me what evidence there is that Bernie stands any chance of taking Florida after all this nonsense. I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic position

As I mentioned above, I think you have a somewhat stale notion of what Hispanics in FL think and how they vote. For one example, they're not all Cuban-Americans anymore.

yet this is where we are at this moment in time. I know of no electoral victories anywhere in the world against populism that has been won by those who haven't advocated a move back to the centre with technocratic competence. This is clearly not just an America specific political paradigm. It's bigger than that, yet it seems like only the Republicans understand the moment. Democrats right now seem to be living in a fantasy bubble. There is still a chance to right the ship, but by damn... they seem to be doing everything to present electoral success to Trump. And I'm not forgetting the colossal irony that Bloomberg and Steyer are taking away support from the moderate candidates. You have to laugh at the possibility that the billionaires intervention might be the very thing that makes Sanders victory all but certain

I have no response for this, TBH. I would hugely distinguish Steyer from Bloomberg, in terms of integrity and intent, but I do hate it that they had the $$$$$ to stay in the race when really qualified and valuable people had to drop out.

 

[Federberg]

This is a false equivalency. The notion of Trump putting his arms around dictators should be a concern for ALL Americans, not just Korean-Americans or Russian-Americans. As to Florida and the Cuban-Americans, you have a somewhat out-dated notion. There is a big generational divide between the Grannies and Granpa's who left Cuba, and the younger Cuban-Americans in Miami. If you won't believe me, perhaps you'll believe a paper from your own country:

In Miami, Cuban Americans have the power to push the state to the left

Cuban immigrants were drawn to the Republican party in the 80s, but their children and grandchildren are shifting the vote

www.theguardian.com

Or for a deeper-dive into the generational issues, from a FL paper:

Poll shows generational, political divides among Cuban-Americans

Cuban-Americans in South Florida, long seen as a major source of Republican votes and holding monolithic, hard-line views toward the Cuban government, are changing. The latest Florida International…

www.sun-sentinel.com

be that as it may, but Florida was always going to be a stretch at the best of times, if you think Sanders' Cuba view doesn't disadvantage him there I really don't know what to say. I think you would be very wrong.

As for the dictator thing, you're doing what most Dems do.... wanting to show you're on the right side. It doesn't matter. Winning the election matters, nothing else. You don't get points for this

 

[Federberg]

I agree with Bernie on a lot of things, and I admire him, in many ways. I've already said that I don't think he's our winning-ist candidate. But his is not a "socialist trope" that he's "leaning into." This is a guy who believes his own message. Say what you want to say about him, but he's lived and died by his beliefs. That's why, to a great extent, his followers are so loyal. His position as a "Democratic socialist," (which is different from a "Socialist," and I know you know better,) is one that he believes in firmly.


As I mentioned above, I think you have a somewhat stale notion of what Hispanics in FL think and how they vote. For one example, they're not all Cuban-Americans anymore.

I have no response for this, TBH. I would hugely distinguish Steyer from Bloomberg, in terms of integrity and intent, but I do hate it that they had the $$$$$ to stay in the race when really qualified and valuable people had to drop out.

I feel like you are arguing a position you're not particularly enthusiastic about. Do you think he can beat Trump?

 

[Moxie]

be that as it may, but Florida was always going to be a stretch at the best of times, if you think Sanders' Cuba view doesn't disadvantage him there I really don't know what to say. I think you would be very wrong.

As for the dictator thing, you're doing what most Dems do.... wanting to show you're on the right side. It doesn't matter. Winning the election matters, nothing else. You don't get points for this

I feel like you are arguing a position you're not particularly enthusiastic about. Do you think he can beat Trump?

I'm pretty sure you didn't read my original response to you on this. My complaint about the inconsistency in what WWII/Cold War etc. enemies they remember and which they're willing to do a 180 on is frustrating to me. I'm not "wanting to show I'm on the right side of things." I'm complaining. Fruitlessly, I know, but this is basically a tennis forum, so I'm blowing off steam to you guys.

And I'm not arguing for Bernie, (again, as I mentioned.) I'm arguing with you. I think some of your points have been incorrect or exaggerated. I know what's at stake.

 

[britbox]

Bernie comes across as authentic, which is a lot more than could be said for some of the other candidates. Trump is actually fairly authentic too. You just might not like the message. Bernie's problem is that he will get chewed out as a communist, which he isn't. Perception matters. Four more years for Trump looks like a foregone conclusion.

 

[Federberg]

It's possible this corona virus could change things, but I'm not counting on it. The economic impact will be like SARS on steroids. China's influence on the global economy is about 3 times larger than in that episode. I'm not wishing this but if we suddenly start hearing about thousands of US citizens being infected and having to self isolate it'll be a whole new paradigm both economically and politically. I'm not sure that this administration has the competence or the trust to do what will need to be done. This is beyond politics now

 

[britbox]

It's possible this corona virus could change things, but I'm not counting on it. The economic impact will be like SARS on steroids. China's influence on the global economy is about 3 times larger than in that episode. I'm not wishing this but if we suddenly start hearing about thousands of US citizens being infected and having to self isolate it'll be a whole new paradigm both economically and politically. I'm not sure that this administration has the competence or the trust to do what will need to be done. This is beyond politics now

Clutching at straws a bit brother. That scenario would feed perfectly in Trump's narrative. "Don't rely on China", bring the jobs back to Uncle Sam.

 

[britbox]

Out of interest, is there a "tribal Dem", meaning one who would generally vote Dem if a rosette was pinned to the hindquarters of an ass, who would consider voting Trump because the roll of Dem candidates was so bad?

 

[Federberg]

Clutching at straws a bit brother. That scenario would feed perfectly in Trump's narrative. "Don't rely on China", bring the jobs back to Uncle Sam.

I don't think so mate. The negative economic impact will land right in the heart of the elections. This isn't something that can be placed exclusively on China. And it won't be an entirely economic issue. We really don't know how many US citizens are infected at the moment because virtually no testing is being done. All of that is down to this administration. There can't be any excuses, the South Koreans are currently producing over 100,000 test kits per day. The US is not doing anything, that's all down to this administration. I don't see anyway this doesn't stain Trump. And if he doesn't get his head straight and stop talking about markets and how the media isn't being fair to him he'll land himself right in it

 

[britbox]

None of that will matter much when Trump can apportion blame.

 

[Federberg]

we shall see. I'm not sure there's a template for what could happen here. We're in unknown territory. This is peoples lives we're talking about here. They might blind themselves to the lies when it doesn't affect their own lives, it's an entirely different thing when it's personal

 

[the AntiPusher]

I dont know why you guys have just handed the Democratic party nomination to Bernie. As I said before weeks ago. Biden is counting on the "Black Vote" in SC..