US Politics Thread

[britbox]

So now Trump is thinking about withdrawing troops from Germany. He's doing this shite in broad day light. Clearly got his lips firmly wrapped around Putin's nether regions. I'm simply amazed that the GOP is willing to sell their country out for a couple of SCOTUS's

Germany is only spending 1.1% of GDP on Defence. NATO membership requires a 2% spend. Why should the US subsidise a German underspend?

 

[mrzz]

OK, even I can't resist this one. How would that be a net benefit to the world? I get that the point about a hegemonic power, but are you really comfortable with the now-borderline hegemonic power being run by one so incompetent? There's still a lot of power there, and yet with a thin-skinned autocrat ostensively driving the train, though all the while we know his handlers are doing all they can to keep him from running it off the rails.

The point about the hegemonic power is reason enough for it to be a net benefit to the world. Obviously this is a matter of opinion, but history shows damn well what unchallenged hegemonic powers do. More importantly, world history from 1995-2015 is much darker than anyone would have guessed in 1994 (cut out year chosen randomly).

The fact that I have no remorse in rooting for the incompetent in the US is actually a sign that I trust this nation to overcome such a hurdle. Still, politics never evolves in straight lines, and maybe one day you will thank the fact that the reaction movement was now and not in another 5 or 10 years. It could have been much worse. I know you don't believe that, but the moment you see in your country a presidential candidate (with real chances to win) making gestures with his hands implying that he will open fire in part of the population just before he prays with his followers, you will know what I mean.

And, of course I think it is ironic justice that he won (I would not use "poetical" here, there is nothing poetical about it). As you know one of the few things I consider as retarded as Trump is the way most of his opposition works. But I really, really don't want to go on debating Trump. Just rest assured that I despise the guy at least the same as you do.

 

[mrzz]

I too am perfectly happy to see an end to US hegemony. Contrary to some very superficial assumptions here I'm not an Americano-phile. I do think that the American people are good, and in terms of culture they're definitely on the plus side. I do get a bit irritated by the narrative that they're on the side of the light, so we should just accept that they have the right to impose their military power where they choose and it's automatically a good thing. I mean.. good grief.. America is the only country in the world that's used nuclear weapons, so it's a bit rich to try to stop others from acquiring the same technology.

But what I see in US politics at the moment is a global threat. We have the very real possibility that the President of the United States is in effect an agent of another government. Just look at this last weekend, after a really innocuous statement from Trudeau, Trump acts like the guy had said something terrible about Trump or the US. It's frightening to live in a world where you just know the majority of Trump's supporters haven't even bothered to look at the facts and just take Trump at his word.

As for HRC as a liar, she is no more a liar than any other politician. American politics is incredibly misogynistic. You only have to look at the reaction to Pelosi as well. You don't have to be a supporter of their politics to realise that the attacks against both of them are over and above what it would have been had they been men. It's truly astounding to me that a country that deludes itself into thinking it is culturally more advanced than anywhere else in the world is still very much in the dark ages. America is a complex and confusing beast to say the least.

Your riposte that HRC is a liar would be excusable if I was talking to a Joe Blow in a pub over a pint or two. But I have had the pleasure of debating with you for a few years now, and we've even had some interesting PM debates, so I know that you are in fact a very intelligent person. So it's not good enough. HRC is not exceptional when it comes to mendacity. One of her greatest faults is a default setting where she tries to parse the truth and side step the core accusations against her. Something that was fine in a bygone age, but in an era of hyper-partisanship it's the very definition of why electorates everywhere in advanced democracies hate politicians. It's incredibly inauthentic. The woman could have dealt with her email problems with a simple mea culpa and resetting speech. Just like Obama did with his pastor controversy in the 08 election. But she truly is one of the worst politicians I've encountered in the last few decades. Funnily enough Theresa May makes her look like the second coming of FDR. I don't know why some of these top female politicians are so bad in this day and age, but it's something for the fairer sex to ponder if they want to take their rightful place at the table. I have watched Clinton's evolution as a politician ever since her husband started his rise to national politics, a lot of the so called dark stuff has been manufactured over the decades to build a character that doesn't match reality. Say what you want but the GOP has a talent for identifying threats and neutralising them. I don't blame the American electorate though. The fault lies with a Democratic Party ethos that is so constitutionally incapable of controlling a narrative it's mind blowing. Consider that we are about to go into mid-term elections where one party has openly supported a child molester, blatantly given tax cuts to extremely wealthy individuals at the expense of the middle class, damaged a health care system not even for ideological reasons, is currently separating babies from parents and caging them, fielding candidates who openly support white supremacy and deny the holocaust, is running a massive fiscal deficit at the worst time in the economic cycle and yet.. and yet... none of these things is being discussed as an argument for that party's unfitness for office by the opposition party? Did you notice what I didn't mention? I didn't mention an ongoing Special Counsel investigation that has led to more charges of key personnel quicker than any Special Counsel investigation in American history. All of this happening and there's a question about whether the party of opposition will win in November. It's stunning. But it illustrates the incompetence necessary for a leading candidate like HRC to be tarnished the way she has been over the last few decades with no real resistance. If you did the work to really understand the politics at play you would realise the sheer laziness "HRC is a proven liar" implies

Thanks for the lengthy response. I agree with parts of your post, some parts are debatable, some are based on information I would not believe that easily. Anyway, my problem is that I don't see it justifying your last sentence. You do not need to convince me that "truth is complicated", as you noticed, all the debates we had is evidence enough I agree with that. Things is that, specially in times like the ones we have now, which are complex and, maybe more importantly, times were "truth" is easily constructed/fabricated, a complicated truth can be easily turn into a plain lie. "HRC is a proven liar" does not implies laziness. It only implies that the discussion is being held with a low level of detail. In that level, if you have a gun to your head and you need to tick one box, either "liar" or "100% frank", what box would you tick? And, yes, the irony in today's world -- an extremely complex world -- is that simple and basic categories get more important by the day. People prefer/understand posts with just one sentence. Their attention span is that short. By the way, I like to refer to Trump as "retard" (unPC word chosen with a dose of irony). The "truth" is also more complicated than that (in other words he is a complex retard!).

 

[Federberg]

 

[Federberg]

Thanks for the lengthy response. I agree with parts of your post, some parts are debatable, some are based on information I would not believe that easily. Anyway, my problem is that I don't see it justifying your last sentence. You do not need to convince me that "truth is complicated", as you noticed, all the debates we had is evidence enough I agree with that. Things is that, specially in times like the ones we have now, which are complex and, maybe more importantly, times were "truth" is easily constructed/fabricated, a complicated truth can be easily turn into a plain lie. "HRC is a proven liar" does not implies laziness. It only implies that the discussion is being held with a low level of detail. In that level, if you have a gun to your head and you need to tick one box, either "liar" or "100% frank", what box would you tick? And, yes, the irony in today's world -- an extremely complex world -- is that simple and basic categories get more important by the day. People prefer/understand posts with just one sentence. Their attention span is that short. By the way, I like to refer to Trump as "retard" (unPC word chosen with a dose of irony). The "truth" is also more complicated than that (in other words he is a complex retard!).

you know what, I'm coming to the conclusion that folks are going to want to believe what they want to believe for whatever reason they want to believe it. It is what it is. HRC is a politician, a conventional one. That means that at certain times she has parsed the truth. This is what politicians do. For you to make the statement that she is a proven liar implies that she is somehow exceptional in this regard. That's my point of disagreement with you. That statement has been promoted to enable moral equivalence between HRC and Trump. With the greatest of respect one has to be willfully blind or ignorant to think that is the case. Anyway, the whole thing is tiresome. I'm done really debating this with people on this forum. I'm just sitting back and marvelling at indictment after indictment. Laughing at Trump's supine betrayal of his country in Putin's presence, and hoping that justice is finally done. I have come to the conclusion that there are people around here who could watch Trump commit murder and find some reason to defend him. I'm not saying you would do that, I just can't be wasting my energy with all of that...

 

[monfed]

This is the worst time to be an immigrant in the US. Don't understand why white americans typically the white republicans think it's only their country? Seriously no other race has such a problem with immigrants as much as them.

Look cry all you want, but USA is a country of immigrants. So the ones who are living there also came on a boat many years ago when the immigration policy wasn't so ridiculous and unfair. So who are they to decide who is a quality immigrant or not? Are you telling me that the ones who came many years ago were ALL rocket scientists and PHDs? Give me a break.

Ok I can understand if Japan or some nordic country has tight immigrations laws, seems fair as they're an indigenous country but this doesn't apply to US.

 

[mrzz]

Anyway, the whole thing is tiresome.

We surely agree on that. I guess we would eventually come to some sort of agreement in something like 324234 pages. Let's assume we got there already.

 

[Federberg]

I simply cannot wait to find out what agreements Trump made with Putin behind closed doors. He could well have done something that even the GOP won't be able to abide. And I'm not even considering what the military industrial complex will have to say about it. He's just incompetent enough to have shot himself in his foot

 

[Horsa]

I simply cannot wait to find out what agreements Trump made with Putin behind closed doors. He could well have done something that even the GOP won't be able to abide. And I'm not even considering what the military industrial complex will have to say about it. He's just incompetent enough to have shot himself in his foot

I can't wait to find out what those 2 have been plotting either. It's scary that they've even had a chance to get their heads together. They'd be bad enough as normal people. In power they're lethal.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I simply cannot wait to find out what agreements Trump made with Putin behind closed doors. He could well have done something that even the GOP won't be able to abide. And I'm not even considering what the military industrial complex will have to say about it. He's just incompetent enough to have shot himself in his foot

Let us hope that Trump won't remember exactly what are the agreements reached.

 

[Federberg]

I really don’t get this new one... Putin invited to the White House this autumn. Right near the midterms. That can’t be good for the GOP

 

[Federberg]

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I really don’t get this new one... Putin invited to the White House this autumn. Right near the midterms. That can’t be good for the GOP

On the other hand that might be good for the GOP. What more can you ask for than interference with close access to supervision right at the time of mid-term?

 

[Federberg]

On the other hand that might be good for the GOP. What more can you ask for than interference with close access to supervision right at the time of mid-term?

Lol! That's true. But everyone is on alert now. It's one thing for Trump to try to get away with collusion in 2016. But to be trying to do it live?? We've seen his incompetence in action. I don't think they would be able to do it with the finesse necessary to be able to get away with it. I think he would just get himself impeached. Even I don't think he's that daft

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Lol! That's true. But everyone is on alert now. It's one thing for Trump to try to get away with collusion in 2016. But to be trying to do it live?? We've seen his incompetence in action. I don't think they would be able to do it with the finesse necessary to be able to get away with it. I think he would just get himself impeached. Even I don't think he's that daft

According to intel sources, Russia is at it again right to this day. But, there is no talk of collusion this time, at least not yet.

 

[Federberg]

According to intel sources, Russia is at it again right to this day. But, there is no talk of collusion this time, at least not yet.

Awareness of it is the key. And the intelligence agencies are openly talking about it. I'm not sure it works this time. I have a funny feeling Trump is going to experience the same problems as Obama did. It's one thing to campaign for yourself, it's entirely different when you are sponsoring candidates. The energy in the democratic base looks ferocious. I'm not sure Trump realises the peril he's in. These elections are probably more important than his in 2016. He'll likely learn what it's like to have at least one part of the legislature in opposition to him. He won't like it

 

[britbox]

According to intel sources, Russia is at it again right to this day. But, there is no talk of collusion this time, at least not yet.

More hysteria about Russia? Tell me something new.

 

[mrzz]

More hysteria about Russia? Tell me something new.

What amazes me is how easily people but into a narrative that, while possibly being useful to take down a politician they don't like (me neither), could bring with itself conflicts with a huge geopolitical power. Of course, much likely most conflicts will be away from home, so nothing to worry about... (we can always cry for their children in our sofas).

Watching the two spearheads of political propaganda in US (CNN and Fox) in their contest to see who is more retarded, it is funny to see how this hysteria shaped the speech in both sides. Now both refer to Russia as "the enemy". One side because it is their agenda, the other because it needs to "look patriotic".

Hey, retards, which "enemy"? Is there a declared war? Not even in full cold war days this term was used that easily.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

So, you guys don't even believe the case prepared by Muller's team on 10 Russians that was released three days before Helsiniki summit. Sure, it looks like the media is always talking about it in a hysterical manner. That does not mean there are no underlying truth to it.

 

[mrzz]

So, you guys don't even believe the case prepared by Muller's team on 10 Russians that was released three days before Helsiniki summit. Sure, it looks like the media is always talking about it in a hysterical manner. That does not mean there are no underlying truth to it.

Up to six months ago I followed this more closely. And by that I mean reading the actual intelligence reports that were cited on the media reports. It was beyond absurd. What was described as "strong evidence" or something like that was that IP's from Moscow where identified in documents related to the leaked e-mails (and I need 30 seconds to get an IP from wherever I want), and that one group of hackers they "identified" had the word "bear" in their name. This is one case but there were more.

That states -- specially big, powerful ones -- play the geopolitical game and try to interfere in each other's internal business, this is old news. Actually, the US is exactly the one with the biggest track record in this regard, but those are the rules of the game (they are, at least in part, the written rules of the game, that is why there are official foreign intelligence officers working within states).

Is Trump clumsy/stupid enough to have tried to play this game and crossed a line? Sure that is possible. But what is absurd from someone watching from the outside, from someone who is not rooting for neither party or neither politician, is how easy people are willing to use international affairs -- regional conflicts, relations to other states and etc -- in order to score domestic political points. I am sorry, but looking from the outside, I see no one thinking about their own country (or the world itself). Just their own (partisan/political) interests.