UK Politics Thread

[britbox]

Michael Foot and Tony Benn, both true socialists rather than the career politicians we have now. I think there are too many who just want to be on the MPs gravy train and would stand for any party where they have a chance of a seat. I have respecy for politicans on all sides who have integrity but sadly I don't see many! MPs expense claims and tax avoidance/evasion scams illustrate that!

I didn't agree with most of Tony Benn's politics.... but had huge respect for the guy. Always like conviction politicians, even if I don't like their convictions!

 

[britbox]

Lol! All that bird watching I'm sure, but bear in mind he had a lot of enemies as a Euro-phile

For sure, but then if you consider the period... Heseltine and Major were also both euro-philes. Major was a weak PM in my opinion. Never thought much of him.

 

[Mary]

Are the Lib Dems totally irrelevant these days... just listening to this guy on Question Time... I really don't see where their voter base is going to come from.

I think they are. The coalition with the tories lost them massive respect. Now they are grumbling about the spread of priavatisation in the NHS which they supported during the coalition. I have a lot of time for Caroline Lucas, not likmely to be a PM but has sound policies and behaves decently. I also respected Geoffrey Howe. His memoirs were fascinationg, especially his account of Thatchers cabinet when he recognised the group think elements that destroyed them.

 

[Mary]

I didn't agree with most of Tony Benn's politics.... but had huge respect for the guy. Always like conviction politicians, even if I don't like their convictions!

Who do you think was our greatest politician of the century? I am torn between Attlee and LLoyd George. I know LG was a Wheeler dealer but he also had great conviction and did a lot of good things. He and Churchill together must have been quite something!

I had a soft spot for MacMillan too, very unlucky with the Christine Keeler stuff.

 

[Federberg]

Who do you think was our greatest politician of the century? I am torn between Attlee and LLoyd George. I know LG was a Wheeler dealer but he also had great conviction and did a lot of good things. He and Churchill together must have been quite something!

I had a soft spot for MacMillan too, very unlucky with the Christine Keeler stuff.

For me Atlee, Churchill and Thatcher in no particular order. All had lasting impact's on our lives

 

[britbox]

Who do you think was our greatest politician of the century? I am torn between Attlee and LLoyd George. I know LG was a Wheeler dealer but he also had great conviction and did a lot of good things. He and Churchill together must have been quite something!

I had a soft spot for MacMillan too, very unlucky with the Christine Keeler stuff.

Lloyd George, Atlee, Churchill and Thatcher would be my shortlist. Only Thatcher in my lifetime - never voted for her and thought her legacy did more damage than good... but a great politician... without doubt. Huge on the domestic stage and punched way above her weight on the international stage. If I had to pick one on all fronts ... Churchill... also blessed by being the right man in the right job at the right time, in extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Mary]

Lloyd George, Atlee, Churchill and Thatcher would be my shortlist. Only Thatcher in my lifetime - never voted for her and thought her legacy did more damage than good... but a great politician... without doubt. Huge on the domestic stage and punched way above her weight on the international stage. If I had to pick one on all fronts ... Churchill... also blessed by being the right man in the right job at the right time, in extraordinary circumstances.

Great agreement between us. I of course loathed Thatcher but I recognise how much she achieved and the respect she gained internationally. I wish we could see politicans of such stature today.

 

[Federberg]

^Agreed! I can think of only Merkel on the global stage now with that sort of stature, but the last year has really damaged that. In defence of Thatcher (and it's interesting to me that so many of her arguments are now consensus) her greatest achievement was taking conservatism from the aristocrats and breaking barrier so that anyone regardless of class could make it. That's no small thing

 

[britbox]

Just a note on Churchill... my late grandpa who was a world war 2 vet, said the Tommies (brit soldiers) hated him... I guess it might explain how a wartime leader on the side of the victors got voted out in a landslide after the war.

Good call on Merkel, federberg - she's kind of been a Thatcher with a velvet glove (soft power).

 

[Mary]

^Agreed! I can think of only Merkel on the global stage now with that sort of stature, but the last year has really damaged that. In defence of Thatcher (and it's interesting to me that so many of her arguments are now consensus) her greatest achievement was taking conservatism from the aristocrats and breaking barrier so that anyone regardless of class could make it. That's no small thing

Agreed. Merkel is likely to have a very rough ride next year.

Two of Thatcher's achievements that stand out to me were her influence on the media which no other politician has ever achieved and her iumpact on the Labour party. She once said New Labour was her greatest achievement. Years on we still haven't overcome that influence. Both of those issues were extremel clever politics from a woman who could see the big picture and address it.

 

[britbox]

You probably won't like this Mary, but Thatcher's biggest achievement for me was curtailing the unions.. and it's bittersweet for me, because my family were a long line of miners in South Wales.

 

[Mary]

Just a note on Churchill... my late grandpa who was a world war 2 vet, said the Tommies (brit soldiers) hated him... I guess it might explain how a wartime leader on the side of the victors got voted out in a landslide after the war.

Good call on Merkel, federberg - she's kind of been a Thatcher with a velvet glove (soft power).

I think it was years of war time austerity and the recognition that everything was not going to change after the war. Troops coming home and their families felt they deserved more than they got. Just as WW1 changed society so did WW2. For example rationing went on for ages after the war, housing was dreadful etc. I can remember clearly how limited our diet was - one of our friends who had a small holding killed a pig and it was like Christmas! Dinner was often bread and dripping and I never had sweets till I was 8! And we were not poor, the food was just not there. And other things like paper were hard to get too. People accepted austerity up to 1945 but resented it afterwards.

 

[britbox]

Blimey Mary - I didn't know you hailed back to the 1940s!

 

[Mary]

You probably won't like this Mary, but Thatcher's biggest achievement for me was curtailing the unions.. and it's bittersweet for me, because my family were a long line of miners in South Wales.

It was prettry grim but followed years of strikes that were so damaging. I remember the power workers strike and the three day week all too well. She had a lot of public support to do that and even Kinnoch did not back the miners as we would have expected him to do.But the other stuff was less in your face, very subtle and clever and the impact is still so powerful.

 

[britbox]

Talking of Kinnock... what are your views on him?

 

[Mary]

Blimey Mary - I didn't know you hailed back to the 1940s!

I was born in 1945. Rationing went on till approx 1953. I would have to look this up but I believe rationing was actually worse after the end of the war. I remember bomb sites all over, beaches covered in concrete blocks to stop enemy landings. We had some windows boarded till about 1950 because there was no glass. I lived in Newcastle, many family in Sheffield both of which were major enemy targets because of steel in Sheffield, ship building in NE. Now don't tell everyone how old I am!!!!!

Best thing about being older is the memories!

 

[Mary]

Talking of Kinnock... what are your views on him?

He lost the plot. And I wish he would now shut up, keep his dreadful son at home and just count the millions he's made. But he made one of the best socialist speeches I have ever heard, " I warn you not to be young, not to fall ill, not to get old."
he wrote it in the car on his way to a hustings and it is still a brilliant speech. I think politics corrupted him as it does so many.

 

[britbox]

Kinnock "jumped the shark" at the 1992 Sheffield Rally...



That ridiculous event indicated how self-serving he was. I could forgive a U-turn on Europe, regardless of him getting a EU commissioner's job... but sitting in the House of Lords after spending a lifetime saying it should be abolished... hypocrite of the highest order.

 

[britbox]

... and to be honest, Thatcher just ate him for lunch at each and every turn.

 

[Mary]

Kinnock "jumped the shark" at the 1992 Sheffield Rally...



That ridiculous event indicated how self-serving he was. I could forgive a U-turn on Europe, regardless of him getting a EU commissioner's job... but sitting in the House of Lords after spending a lifetime saying it should be abolished... hypocrite of the highest order.

Considering what a mess he made of elections he needs to shut up now!

I hate socialists accepting peerages, but it happens so often. We had a wonderful NE MP, Manny Shinwell. I felt personally betrayed when he accepted a peerage. And I loather the honours list still. My M in law was one of the civil servants who did the prep on the honours. She had to ensure those offered honours would accept to save embarrassment of publiuc refusals. Behing the scenes many turned down honours. She left the job in the late 70s, not sure how it is now but the system is so discredited.