Totally Classless comments from Uncle Toni...

Front242

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Kieran said:
Front242 said:
Why should you need to believe me? Didn't you watch those matches as a huge Rafa fan? See the MTOs for yourself, you don't need anyone to tell you about them. Plus you have tons of websites as references.

Brother, Broken has already shown that you might be referring to the wrong matches.

Now, why should I look at old matches on this - and possibly wrong ones at that? What would it prove? That Rafa wasn't clever enough to look injured so he could fool the Federer fans who were onto his crafty little scam with the MTO's?

He called for the trainer, therefore he was injured. You're reaching... :s

He called for the trainer, therefore he was injured? Yeah, and his perfectly fine movement before and after really back up your claim. It doesn't matter if it was Monte Carlo or Hamburg, the scoreline I posted was correct and the movement of Rafa was in no way hampered to anyone watching who isn't blind. Clearly a tactical ploy to win using whatever means at his disposal to crush Fed's confidence prior to RG.

And seeing as he clearly WAS NOT injured even one iota in RG 2008, it sticks out like a sore thumb that he took 2 MTOs just prior in the Monte Carlo and Hamburg finals. What a classy guy he is.
 

Kieran

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Front242 said:
Mind games to beat Fed in both of those leading up to RG by whatever means necessary :nono

Wait! Rafa needs mind games top beat Roger? :laydownlaughing

On clay? :snigger :lolz: :lolz: :laydownlaughing
 

Front242

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Kieran said:
Front242 said:
Mind games to beat Fed in both of those leading up to RG by whatever means necessary :nono

Wait! Rafa needs mind games top beat Roger? :laydownlaughing

On clay? :snigger :lolz: :lolz: :laydownlaughing

Yes, clearly he did back then or why would he have taken 2 MTOs in big finals prior to RG. You're unreal. This wasn't long after Fed had 2 MPs at Rome 2006. You'd swear Fed couldn't beat him the way you warble on. Oh, I forgot, because he was injured. Yeah right.
 

Kieran

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Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)
 

Front242

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Kieran said:
Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)

Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Front242 said:
Be reasonable. The proof is Federer's movement was clearly hampered by anyone who doesn't have eyesight like Ray Charles. Rafa on the other hand runs around like a gazelle before and after. It's night and day.

I don't know what night and day look like where you're from. To me, night and day look like Rafa being injured and taking extended breaks from the sport because of this. You contradicted that. How do I know what night and day means to you, when it comes to discussing Rafa?

What the hell is that supposed to mean. Completely off on a tagent there. He didn't take any time off after these matches. Monte Carlo 2008, he used an MTO and won the set while trailing 5-2 and won it 7-5 7-5, despite being down 5-2 4-0. You'll probably call him a warrior, I'll call him something quite far removed from that. Hamburg 2008, Fed was serving for the set and Rafa takes a 6 minute thigh massage, which incidentally is far longer than the allowed time for MTOs. He won the match. Against Haase and Petzschner he was down 2 sets to 1 and won both and went on to win the title. So what does he's taken extended time off have to do with any of those?

I suppose he took an extended break for injury after taking a dump before Fed served for the match in Indian Wells 2012 too, yeah?

A) Please check my posts above regarding fact checking.

B) How can you be down 5-2 4-0?

PS: You're confusing the Hamburg and Monte Carlo matches by the way, and not just in medical timeouts.

Nadal was down 5-2 in the first set of Hamburg when he took the medical time out. He ended up winning the match.

In Monte Carlo, he won the first set without any noticeable comebacks, but yeah, he was down 4-0 in the second only to win it anyway WITHOUT any medical timeouts. Blame Roger.

He was down 5-2 and took a MTO and won the first set 7-5. Then Fed was up 4-0 again in the 2nd set and lost it also 7-5. Clearly rattled by the antics from Rafa causing him to lose set 1. Whichever match it was, those were the scores and it wasn't cool. Rafa was not moving any differently. Hell, he went on to mangle everyone in RG 2008 so clearly Rafa knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Mind games to beat Fed in both of those leading up to RG by whatever means necessary :nono

Nadal took a MTO in ONE of those matches only: Hamburg 2008. You can check the play-by-play to make sure, if you like. And I agree with you, it looked like a bogus medical time-out. It was nothing more than a massage of the thigh. But just for accuracy's sake, he never took a MTO for Monte Carlo. Again, blame Roger for not maintaining his lead in that one.

Also, for further accuracy, in Hamburg 2008, Nadal was down 5-2 and took the medical timeout. He won that set. But then Roger actually WON the following set, before Nadal won the third. You got the entire scoreline and the events all wrong.

In Monte Carlo, Nadal won the first set without any notable occurrences, Roger was up 4-0 in the second, but Nadal came back and won it anyway.

That's what happened.
 

Denis

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Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)

Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers

He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.
 

Front242

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Front242 said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Front242 said:
Kieran said:
I don't know what night and day look like where you're from. To me, night and day look like Rafa being injured and taking extended breaks from the sport because of this. You contradicted that. How do I know what night and day means to you, when it comes to discussing Rafa?

What the hell is that supposed to mean. Completely off on a tagent there. He didn't take any time off after these matches. Monte Carlo 2008, he used an MTO and won the set while trailing 5-2 and won it 7-5 7-5, despite being down 5-2 4-0. You'll probably call him a warrior, I'll call him something quite far removed from that. Hamburg 2008, Fed was serving for the set and Rafa takes a 6 minute thigh massage, which incidentally is far longer than the allowed time for MTOs. He won the match. Against Haase and Petzschner he was down 2 sets to 1 and won both and went on to win the title. So what does he's taken extended time off have to do with any of those?

I suppose he took an extended break for injury after taking a dump before Fed served for the match in Indian Wells 2012 too, yeah?

A) Please check my posts above regarding fact checking.

B) How can you be down 5-2 4-0?

PS: You're confusing the Hamburg and Monte Carlo matches by the way, and not just in medical timeouts.

Nadal was down 5-2 in the first set of Hamburg when he took the medical time out. He ended up winning the match.

In Monte Carlo, he won the first set without any noticeable comebacks, but yeah, he was down 4-0 in the second only to win it anyway WITHOUT any medical timeouts. Blame Roger.

He was down 5-2 and took a MTO and won the first set 7-5. Then Fed was up 4-0 again in the 2nd set and lost it also 7-5. Clearly rattled by the antics from Rafa causing him to lose set 1. Whichever match it was, those were the scores and it wasn't cool. Rafa was not moving any differently. Hell, he went on to mangle everyone in RG 2008 so clearly Rafa knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Mind games to beat Fed in both of those leading up to RG by whatever means necessary :nono

Nadal took a MTO in ONE of those matches only: Hamburg 2008. You can check the play-by-play to make sure, if you like. And I agree with you, it looked like a bogus medical time-out. It was nothing more than a massage of the thigh. But just for accuracy's sake, he never took a MTO for Monte Carlo. Again, blame Roger for not maintaining his lead in that one.

Also, for further accuracy, in Hamburg 2008, Nadal was down 5-2 and took the medical timeout. He won that set. But then Roger actually WON the following set, before Nadal won the third. You got the entire scoreline and the events all wrong.

In Monte Carlo, Nadal won the first set without any notable occurrences, Roger was up 4-0 in the second, but Nadal came back and won it anyway.

That's what happened.

Fair enough and thanks for correcting the match/scoreline. A better job than Kieran who just said ah look you can't even get the match right. The premise was the same with the MTO regardless and at least it's nice to see a Nadal fan admit that seemed like a bogus MTO. Kudos to you, sir, for that. :clap

And again, as I stated earlier, I didn't go off talking about MTOs for no reason. StantheMan commented on Nadal's history of injuries and MTOs and I said at least the one from last weekend was genuine but I remarked that many in the past didn't seem to be so that's how we ended up here. 6 minutes for a thigh massage is also excessive and well over the allowed time. He took 9 minutes, 3 times the allowed time against Del Potro at Wimbledon 2011.
 

brokenshoelace

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Denisovich said:
Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)

Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers

He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.

You do know who you root for right?
 

Denis

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)

Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers

He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.

You do know who you root for right?

Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.
 

brokenshoelace

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Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Good stuff, buddy, you made me laugh.

Twice.

Now, I'm away to bed. Night all... :)

Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers

He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.

You do know who you root for right?

Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.

So Novak Djokovic is up two sets to love in a Grand Slam final and hurts his back. A trainer can give him pain killers, give him a back rub to summon enough strength to potentially tough out a set and win the title...or no medical timeouts and thus: retire (or just continue but lose anyway).

You're telling me the former is the more logical choice? Medical timeouts have their drawbacks but I'm seriously asking you: Can you name me the last match on the men's side in which you remember seeing a super bogus medical timeout? Is it worth really not giving players the chance to heal and continue because they occasionally get abused?
 

Denis

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Front242 said:
Don't worry. I'm willing to concede Nadal is the undisputed GOAT.

That's Greatest Of Alltime Timeout-abusers

He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.

You do know who you root for right?

Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.

So Novak Djokovic is up two sets to love in a Grand Slam final and hurts his back. A trainer can give him pain killers, give him a back rub to summon enough strength to potentially tough out a set and win the title...or no medical timeouts and thus: retire (or just continue but lose anyway).

You're telling me the former is the more logical choice? Medical timeouts have their drawbacks but I'm seriously asking you: Can you name me the last match on the men's side in which you remember seeing a super bogus medical timeout? Is it worth really not giving players the chance to heal and continue because they occasionally get abused?

You can take pain-killers and a massage during the change over if you feel like it. Like I said, I prefer MTO's to be banned.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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This MTO business is so open to abuse and interpretation that it does turn me off. The problem is, there is never any repercussion because how are you ever going to prove anything? " Look, he took the time out now he is faster than ever!" So? The only thing you can go by is the timing of a MTO but even than, who is to say it has any meaning. It might look it, but again, no proof of anything.

I am sure of one thing though: If you are an adult, you do not need a pee break right before your opponent is going to serve for the match.
 

GameSetAndMath

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I am glad that Stan finished the job without getting out of focus completely. It is
difficult to play against an injured player.

I remember one match between Serena Williams and Daniela Hantuchova. Serena
got injured, took MTO and all. It should be an easy to put away, but Daniela got distracted
by all these. She did not only did not exploit Serena's weakness at that time, she just
could not perform well which she was doing nicely before when Serena was fine.

In the end all newspapers wrote Serena beat Daniela with one arm and one leg
which is grossly inaccurate.
 

GameSetAndMath

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The match that I was talking about happened in 2007 Wimbledon. See below
for a brief write up on it

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hantuchova had just hit a forehand winner to make the score 5-5, 30-15 in the second set when Serena, walking along the baseline, suddenly felt a grab in her lower left leg. She whacked herself in the calf three times with her racket, then clutched at the muscle and sprawled on the ground.

The 2002 and 2003 Wimbledon champion was down for more than five minutes with what was diagnosed as a spasm-induced calf strain.

Eventually, play continued, but Serena limped around, sometimes struggling merely to walk. While she wiped away tears, up in the stands Venus used both hands to cover her eyes, and Price shook her head.

After Hantuchova went up 6-5, Serena somehow held serve to force a tiebreaker, getting to 6-all with a 110 mph ace and a shriek. With Hantuchova up 4-2 in the tiebreaker, a drizzle forced a suspension.

A crowd that suddenly was behind Serena actually applauded the chair umpire's announcement of a rain delay, something unprecedented in these parts.

"I was definitely saved by the rain," Serena would say later. "I couldn't move before the rain. Just everything stopped."

When play resumed, both of her calves were taped heavily. She also was wearing ankle-length white pants under her skirt to protect her legs from the chill, with temperatures in the low 50s.

"It's so hard to play against somebody that you know is struggling," Hantuchova said, "and you kind of feel sorry."
 

Front242

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1972Murat said:
This MTO business is so open to abuse and interpretation that it does turn me off. The problem is, there is never any repercussion because how are you ever going to prove anything? " Look, he took the time out now he is faster than ever!" So? The only thing you can go by is the timing of a MTO but even than, who is to say it has any meaning. It might look it, but again, no proof of anything.

I am sure of one thing though: If you are an adult, you do not need a pee break right before your opponent is going to serve for the match.

That's the thing. If you're willing to stoop that low surely it only further increases the likelihood that you would try and kill an on fire opponent's momentum when you're in a losing position. It's within the rules and therefore open to abuse but really the umpire should have the balls to say, "look, you appear to be running around ok, is this really necessary?". I mean if it's obvious a player is hampered physically the umpire would surely see it, but I'm also sure they've seen their fair share of people abusing the rule too. That they allow it is the problem more than the abusers. But really they're both equally to blame. You should have the decency to not do it on moral grounds.

Think of it this way, if you're such a great champion, then (a) why are you losing? and (b) why can't you catch up without resorting to gamesmanship seeing as you're supposedly such a great player? Great players don't need to cheat to get back on level terms when losing and screw with their opponents' heads when they're being soundly beaten. They should figure out how to turn the match around without any intervention from rulebook abuse.
 

Moxie

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Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
He has a history of this alright. It's a great way of messing with your opponents head. Look what it did to Stan this AO, notwithstanding that that one was legit. That's why I voted for banning them.

You do know who you root for right?

Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.

So Novak Djokovic is up two sets to love in a Grand Slam final and hurts his back. A trainer can give him pain killers, give him a back rub to summon enough strength to potentially tough out a set and win the title...or no medical timeouts and thus: retire (or just continue but lose anyway).

You're telling me the former is the more logical choice? Medical timeouts have their drawbacks but I'm seriously asking you: Can you name me the last match on the men's side in which you remember seeing a super bogus medical timeout? Is it worth really not giving players the chance to heal and continue because they occasionally get abused?

You can take pain-killers and a massage during the change over if you feel like it. Like I said, I prefer MTO's to be banned.

Broken's comment is not totally theoretical. Djokovic was up 2 sets to 1 in the 2011 US Open Final, having lost the 3rd in a TB. He took a MTO to have his back seen to. If his back was so worrying as to warrant a MTO, would you have preferred that he not get the help that he needed? Or, since he was able to leap back up and beat Nadal 6-1 in that set and so the title, might some not see it as gamesmanship to slow down Nadal's momentum after having won the 3rd? As you see, it cuts both ways.

If you don't remember it, you needn't search for video. You can read the Guardian's "As it happened" account here.
 

brokenshoelace

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GameSetAndMath said:
I am glad that Stan finished the job without getting out of focus completely. It is
difficult to play against an injured player.

...but not as difficult as playing against a healthy player, and certainly not as difficult as playing when you're injured yourself.
 

Denis

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Moxie629 said:
Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
You do know who you root for right?

Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.

So Novak Djokovic is up two sets to love in a Grand Slam final and hurts his back. A trainer can give him pain killers, give him a back rub to summon enough strength to potentially tough out a set and win the title...or no medical timeouts and thus: retire (or just continue but lose anyway).

You're telling me the former is the more logical choice? Medical timeouts have their drawbacks but I'm seriously asking you: Can you name me the last match on the men's side in which you remember seeing a super bogus medical timeout? Is it worth really not giving players the chance to heal and continue because they occasionally get abused?

You can take pain-killers and a massage during the change over if you feel like it. Like I said, I prefer MTO's to be banned.

Broken's comment is not totally theoretical. Djokovic was up 2 sets to 1 in the 2011 US Open Final, having lost the 3rd in a TB. He took a MTO to have his back seen to. If his back was so worrying as to warrant a MTO, would you have preferred that he not get the help that he needed? Or, since he was able to leap back up and beat Nadal 6-1 in that set and so the title, might some not see it as gamesmanship to slow down Nadal's momentum after having won the 3rd? As you see, it cuts both ways.

If you don't remember it, you needn't search for video. You can read the Guardian's "As it happened" account here.

I don't care about specific instances and speculation of what would have been. MTO's risk abuse, so I think they should be banned.
 

brokenshoelace

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Denisovich said:
Moxie629 said:
Denisovich said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Denisovich said:
Yes, he should not do that either. Just ban MTO's.

So Novak Djokovic is up two sets to love in a Grand Slam final and hurts his back. A trainer can give him pain killers, give him a back rub to summon enough strength to potentially tough out a set and win the title...or no medical timeouts and thus: retire (or just continue but lose anyway).

You're telling me the former is the more logical choice? Medical timeouts have their drawbacks but I'm seriously asking you: Can you name me the last match on the men's side in which you remember seeing a super bogus medical timeout? Is it worth really not giving players the chance to heal and continue because they occasionally get abused?

You can take pain-killers and a massage during the change over if you feel like it. Like I said, I prefer MTO's to be banned.

Broken's comment is not totally theoretical. Djokovic was up 2 sets to 1 in the 2011 US Open Final, having lost the 3rd in a TB. He took a MTO to have his back seen to. If his back was so worrying as to warrant a MTO, would you have preferred that he not get the help that he needed? Or, since he was able to leap back up and beat Nadal 6-1 in that set and so the title, might some not see it as gamesmanship to slow down Nadal's momentum after having won the 3rd? As you see, it cuts both ways.

If you don't remember it, you needn't search for video. You can read the Guardian's "As it happened" account here.

I don't care about specific instances and speculation of what would have been. MTO's risk abuse, so I think they should be banned.

There are sooooo many things that risk abuse in life. You can't ban them all because of that. Players should be treated like humans. If they have an injury that's hampering them, you're essentially leaving them with two choices: Retire (and thus lose a match, and it could be a monumental one...one that you've worked your whole career for), or continue to play while injured and in pain.

Obviously, a MTO is not going to magically heal everything but it sure can make it better, which makes the player feel better, which in turn means he'll play better, which in turn means fans get their money's worth.

The positives FAR outweigh the negatives.

Please point me out to the last questionable MTO you saw that ended up affecting the outcome of the match...

PS: "I don't care about specific instances"

That's exactly the problem. You don't care about specific instances and examples, and instead are talking in generalities.