The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

[monfed]

After 2016 I thought dull was done, even RG looked doubtful. But looks like he's gone back to his superfoods and he's dominating even outside clay now.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

After 2016 I thought dull was done, even RG looked doubtful. But looks like he's gone back to his superfoods and he's dominating even outside clay now.

Rafa Nadal probably spends 10 times more time in the gym, on physical training and on the tennis court than Federer. So it’s not superfood, it’s a lot of hard work. Show some respect.

 

[Moxie]

Rafa Nadal probably spends 10 times more time in the gym, on physical training and on the tennis court than Federer. So it’s not superfood, it’s a lot of hard work. Show some respect.

The thing that doesn't work about their endless insistence on doping is: then what happened in 2015-16? If there's a "magic bullet," why not then? Nadal didn't need it when he was a spring chicken. When Nadal loses, they're just happy, when he wins, they go to the needle. Never mind he was a prodigy. And if we're talking late-career "superfoods," why NOT Roger, then?

 

[monfed]

Rafa Nadal probably spends 10 times more time in the gym, on physical training and on the tennis court than Federer. So it’s not superfood, it’s a lot of hard work. Show some respect.

I respect dull's skill of gaming the system.

 

[Moxie]

After 2016 I thought dull was done, even RG looked doubtful. But looks like he's gone back to his superfoods and he's dominating even outside clay now.

Sorry, Darth put the kibosh on that...there's a biological passport now.

 

[Front242]

The thing that doesn't work about their endless insistence on doping is: then what happened in 2015-16? If there's a "magic bullet," why not then? Nadal didn't need it when he was a spring chicken. When Nadal loses, they're just happy, when he wins, they go to the needle. Never mind he was a prodigy. And if we're talking late-career "superfoods," why NOT Roger, then?

And you know this HOW exactly? He could have been on PEDs since day one for all you know. People don't even know if their best friend is on steroids other than what their eyes can see unless the person actually tells them. You know no more than us and we're all going by what we see.

 

[Front242]

Sorry, Darth put the kibosh on that...there's a biological passport now.

It tracks spikes in performance. Gradual small ones may not be picked up easily and you should really realize the cheats are always ahead of the testers. This relates to EVERYONE btw and not just Nadal but before you point the finger at Federer in a childish retaliation, you need to remember he does actually get tired like a normal human being so nothing stands out there.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

It tracks spikes in performance. Gradual small ones may not be picked up easily and you should really realize the cheats are always ahead of the testers. This relates to EVERYONE btw and not just Nadal but before you point the finger at Federer in a childish retaliation, you need to remember he does actually get tired like a normal human being so nothing stands out there.

I'd say that Nadal gets tired more than Federer because he needs more time between points to recuperate and sometimes goes to the towel to take his breathe even though he's younger and he's very fit. But Federer barely takes time between points despite being 37 and being less fit, and yet he still seems very calm without making an effort to breath even late in a 5th set. So if you don't want people pointing the finger at Federer please don't point the finger at Nadal or anyone else.

 

[Front242]

I'd say that Nadal gets tired more than Federer because he needs more time between points to recuperate and sometimes goes to the towel to take his breathe even though he's younger and he's very fit. But Federer barely takes time between points despite being 37 and being less fit, and yet he still seems very calm without making an effort to breath even late in a 5th set. So if you don't want people pointing the finger at Federer please don't point the finger at Nadal or anyone else.

Let's see, Federer has a much, much better serve than Nadal who towels off after being aced just to stall and piss his opponent off 'cos he's that kind of guy, ie. a prick. Federer has no need to stall after hitting an ace, nor does he need to take time between points because he wins points much quicker. It's really not that difficult to understand. Federer is off the court in 1.5-2 hours max at slams while Nadal, Djokovic and Murray, for example are out there 3 hours + a lot of the time. So I'll gladly continue to point the finger at the guys taking forever between points 'cos (A) they're unsporting pricks and (B) players who never get tired AND play super physical games are very suspicious to anyone with half a clue.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Let's see, Federer has a much, much better serve than Nadal who towels off after being aced just to stall and piss his opponent off 'cos he's that kind of guy, ie. a prick. Federer has no need to stall after hitting an ace, nor does he need to take time between points because he wins points much quicker. It's really not that difficult to understand. Federer is off the court in 1.5-2 hours max at slams while Nadal, Djokovic and Murray, for example are out there 3 hours + a lot of the time. So I'll gladly continue to point the finger at the guys taking forever between points 'cos (A) they're unsporting pricks and (B) players who never get tired AND play super physical games are very suspicious to anyone with half a clue.

Lol if Federer and Nadal meet they play similar points. If Federer hits an ace then it means that Rafa got aced and didn’t spend energy. If Rafa wins points after 20 rallies then it means that Federer was also in those rallies. Yet in their matches I see Federer barely breathing and barely taking any time even in 5th set, he’s like a superhero. Nadal on the other hand often seems tired and often needs to recuperate between points even though he’s younger. Anyone can point fingers.

 

[Moxie]

And you know this HOW exactly? He could have been on PEDs since day one for all you know. People don't even know if their best friend is on steroids other than what their eyes can see unless the person actually tells them. You know no more than us and we're all going by what we see.

But I've asked you where his "Day 1" would have been. Working backwards from his 2005 RG win, he had wins over #1 and #2 at 17/18, had wins over past #1s and RG champs at 16. He beat the recently retired Pat Cash in an exho at 14, won 12/under Spain and Europe at 12 and and all-Balearic Islands under 10 when he was 8. When was his "day one?"

As to your other statement, it goes back on you: you know this HOW exactly? Your arguments are easy to turn back on you. You know nothing, and you have no proof. Stop acting like we have to prove it, or otherwise you get to keep slandering a great champion, just because you want to. Your insistence is childish, and I don't think I'm the only poster that is getting tired of it.

 

[El Dude]

Two things.

One, innocent until proven guilty, and I mean proven, not just hearsay, rumor, speculation, or what you wish to believe.

Two, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that Nadal used (or uses) steroids. There are a bunch of little things here and there--from player accusations, fictional speculations, his up-and-down career record, and his body type--that put an edge of doubt in my mind. But I also wouldn't be totally surprised if the same comes out about Roger, although maybe a bit surprised and also very disappointed. Or Andy, Novak, etc. In other words, if we doubt Rafa then we have to doubt Roger (e.g. winning the AO in 2017 at age 35 after not playing a lick of tennis for months is equally as suspicious as Rafa's surge in 2013).

Until about seven, eight years ago I followed tennis very casually, but have been a serious fan of baseball going back to the 80s. From the late 80s until about a decade ago, steroids were ubiquitous in baseball. The 1993-2009 era is sometimes called the "Roid Era," because of obviously inflated hitting statistics. Many or most of the greatest players of that era--notably Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez and many others--were known steroids users, and it is likely that the truly "clean" players were the exceptions, not the rule.

What is not clear in baseball is to what degree steroids impacts performance except that it improves it overall in most players. Jose Canseco said that it put you up a whole category; if you were pretty good it turned you into a star, if you were a star it turned you into a superstar; if you were a superstar (like Bonds) it made you out of this world. It is widely accept that Bonds began steroid use after seeing McGwire hit 70 HR in 1998; before that he was the best player in baseball and an all-time great; from 2000-04 he was possibly the greatest hitter in the history of the sport, at least since prime Ted Williams or Babe Ruth.

At some point there is going to be a smoking gun with steroids in tennis. So far there have been a bunch of individual players who have been caught, and rumors of it being widespread, but none of the big dogs have been proven to be steroids users. Organizational tennis seems especially hush-hush, presumably not wishing to tarnish its greatest stars.

Right now we are nearing the end of one of the greatest eras of all-time greats in tennis history. If it came out that one or two or all of the Big Four were users, it would forever tarnish not only the era, but tennis history.

But as of right now, we don't know, so I'm going to not worry too much about it and enjoy the fact that as of this moment we have a 37-year old Federer, a 32-year old Nadal, and a 31-year old Djokovic--three players with a combined 50 (!) Grand Slam trophies--all playing at a high level in Grand Slams for the first time in years. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Front242]

But I've asked you where his "Day 1" would have been. Working backwards from his 2005 RG win, he had wins over #1 and #2 at 17/18, had wins over past #1s and RG champs at 16. He beat the recently retired Pat Cash in an exho at 14, won 12/under Spain and Europe at 12 and and all-Balearic Islands under 10 when he was 8. When was his "day one?"

As to your other statement, it goes back on you: you know this HOW exactly? Your arguments are easy to turn back on you. You know nothing, and you have no proof. Stop acting like we have to prove it, or otherwise you get to keep slandering a great champion, just because you want to. Your insistence is childish, and I don't think I'm the only poster that is getting tired of it.

Day 1 could probably have been before he even started on tour for all you know and he beat Pat Cash, so what? Cash was shite except for 1 Wimbledon. Neither of us have any proof nor will we ever quite likely so what exactly makes it ok for you to tell me to stop and let you continue acting like you're right and that Nadal is a saint? Your insistence is equally childish and no less unfounded. Continue watching the bald prick run like a gazelle and never get tired. Keep at the when was his day one crap too because guys join gyms at the age of 15 when no one else has seen them and they're already massive for their age as they've been lifting and injecting at home. When it comes to endurance how far fetched is it to believe someone has been giving their kid something to make them rich?! Not really that far fetched at all. Sharapova was taking crap for years and most likely it was her dad who started her on it. Just happens it was only banned years later. It happens all the time in sports...

 

[Moxie]

@Front242, the difference between you and me is that you believe that your narrative builds an irrefutable case against Rafa, and that any of us who don't really buy it, or chose to keep an open mind are "naive." AND you and Darth keep bringing it up, as if it's true. On loads of threads. I have offered a counter possibility to what you say. I have said that neither of us knows for sure. Your argument gets ridiculous when you start to say things like Pat Cash was shite, oh...except that one Wimbledon. He was a professional player who'd won a Major and was once ranked #6. Rafa played him only 3 years after he'd retired, and, at 14, he beat him! That's not nothing. You keep speaking in generalities, or bringing up other people, like Sharapova above, and I've told you I'm not talking about them or defending them. I've never said I don't think doping happens in tennis. I've specifically only given you counter-arguments to yours vis-a-vis Nadal. This is really designed for other posters to read, since I know you're totally convinced that you are right. This is so that you don't just influence other people just because you keep bullying the point.

But here's another thing that confuses me: you talk about Rafa's size as a "proof" that he dopes, yet on the USOpen thread, you make fun of how puny he is. I don't really understand how you can have it both ways.

As I've said, you are within your rights to believe what you will, as am I. I have only asked you to stop making cheesy, snarky insinuations on other threads, when they are difficult to rebut without derailing the thread. I think that's a fair request. And so, btw, thanks for bringing this to the proper thread.

 

[Front242]

Front, the difference between you and me is that you believe that your narrative builds an irrefutable case and that any of us who don't really buy it, or chose to keep an open mind are naive. AND you and Darth keep bringing it up, as if it's true. On loads of threads. I have offered a counter possibility to what you say. I have said that neither of us knows for sure. Your argument gets ridiculous when you start to say things like Pat Cash was shite, oh...except that one Wimbledon. He was a professional player who'd won a Major and was once ranked #6. Rafa played him only 3 years after he'd retired, and, at 14, he beat him! That's not nothing. You keep speaking in generalities, or bringing up, other people, like Sharapova above, and I've told you I'm not talking about them or defending them. I've never said I don't think doping happens in tennis. I've specifically only given you counter-arguments specific to Nadal. This is really designed for other posters to read, since I know you're totally convinced that you are right.

But here's another thing that confuses me: you talk about Rafa's size as a "proof" that he dopes, yet on the USOpen thread, you make fun of how puny he is. I don't really understand how you can have it both ways.

As I've said, you are within your rights to believe what you will, as am I. I have only asked you to stop making cheesy, snarky insinuations on other thread, when they are difficult to rebut without derailing the thread. I think that's a fair request.

What the actual fuck? Pardon my French. I dunno how many times it's been pointed out now (and not only by me) that Nadal hasn't been big or in good shape for YEARS now. He has one big bicep and decent quads still and that's it and a far cry from the beefy photos previously posted and that people can easily source online. The doping accusations are re how he suddenly bulked up a ton and subsequently went to crap over the years which is just what happens when you cycle on roids and then stop.

You can't prove Nadal wasn't doping from a very young age and I can't either but I'll tell you this...I've never been more sure that guy is a doper than I have of anyone else and I'd bet my house, my job and my kid's life on it. I was right about Errani also don't forget and you being the clay court lover that you are refuted that as well but look who was right all along...

There are a ton of players who have claimed Nadal is doping and I don't see too many (any?) claiming the same about Federer. As El Dude pointed out, all the top guys may be taking something but there's not a lot to go by in the case of some as there are for others. Re beating Cash, a player on his last legs versus a young kid with boundless energy who for all you know could've been juiced like a Tropicana factory (c) - Front242 from a very young age. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Moxie]

What the actual fuck? Pardon my French. I dunno how many times it's been pointed out now (and not only by me) that Nadal hasn't been big or in good shape for YEARS now. He has one big bicep and decent quads still and that's it and a far cry from the beefy photos previously posted and that people can easily source online. The doping accusations are re how he suddenly bulked up a ton and subsequently went to crap over the years which is just what happens when you cycle on roids and then stop.

You can't prove Nadal wasn't doping from a very young age and I can't either but I'll tell you this...I've never been more sure that guy is a doper than I have of anyone else and I'd bet my house, my job and my kid's life on it. I was right about Errani also don't forget and you being the clay court lover that you are refuted that as well but look who was right all along...

There are a ton of players who have claimed Nadal is doping and I don't see too many (any?) claiming the same about Federer. As El Dude pointed out, all the top guys may be taking something but there's not a lot to go by in the case of some as there are for others. Re beating Cash, a player on his last legs versus a young kid with boundless energy who for all you know could've been juiced like a Tropicana factory (c) - Front242 from a very young age. Your guess is as good as mine.

That's a fairly defensive post. I know you have some obsession with men's gym bodies, but you can't say Rafa's being buff means he doped young, and not being buff still means he dopes now. It doesn't make sense.

You will never understand my point that Rafa being so obviously talented at so young an age offers a counter-argument as to why he would just randomly decide to dope, at 14-18 years old...somewhere in there, which I guess you're hoping for. That "tennis is a big money sport" is a generality, and applies to all players, including Federer. But it really doesn't offer an explanation for a prodigy who was proceeding along nicely.

I have to say, your insistence above sounds a bit hysterical. What players would you say insist that Nadal dopes? I think you're getting freaked out that you can't counter reasonable rebuttals. It really comes down to the fact that you refuse to recognize Nadal's talent. You think Roger is so talented that he wouldn't even need to be tempted. That's where you are applying double-standards AND being incredibly naive, based on your own arguments about what young players would do to get a leg up.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

That's a fairly defensive post. I know you have some obsession with men's gym bodies, but you can't say Rafa's being buff means he doped young, and not being buff still means he dopes now. It doesn't make sense.

You will never understand my point that Rafa being so obviously talented at so young an age offers a counter-argument as to why he would just randomly decide to dope, at 14-18 years old...somewhere in there, which I guess you're hoping for. That "tennis is a big money sport" is a generality, and applies to all players, including Federer. But it really doesn't offer an explanation for a prodigy who was proceeding along nicely.

I have to say, your insistence above sounds a bit hysterical. What players would you say insist that Nadal dopes? I think you're getting freaked out that you can't counter reasonable rebuttals. It really comes down to the fact that you refuse to recognize Nadal's talent. You think Roger is so talented that he wouldn't even need to be tempted. That's where you are applying double-standards AND being incredibly naive, based on your own arguments about what young players would do to get a leg up.

Moxie, please don't waste your time on these so-called Federer fans. These are not even Federer fans to begin with, they are just Nadal haters. 90% of their post are about putting Nadal down and that's because they are jealous of Nadal's success, beauty and hot girlfriend. To put him down makes them feel better about their own lives. It's too bad they pretend to be Federer fans because they make him look bad. Federer deserves real better fans.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

You can't prove Nadal wasn't doping from a very young age and I can't either but I'll tell you this...I've never been more sure that guy is a doper than I have of anyone else and I'd bet my house, my job and my kid's life on it. I was right about Errani also don't forget and you being the clay court lover that you are refuted that as well but look who was right all along...

Very emotional and very stupid bet against reasonable odds. And it even makes questionable the quality of your fatherhood.
I want to take it, can we strike this deal now? How are we going to verify if Nadal is a dope or clean? Verify all APT doping records they keep? I think it's possible, and I'm confident Nadal will come clean if innocent until proven guilty law is applied. I think your house, whatever it's worth, will be a nice addition to my property portfolio, so thanks for your offer, I'll take it. I'll also take your job if it's somewhere in the US Midwest, perhaps? I have few jobless friends there who would be very happy to take it over from you, so I'll give it to them, provided there is a skill match. The only part I'm reluctant to accept is your kid because I don't want to kill the kid, and I sympathise with you as a father, even though you are a foolish father beyond any imagination. You want to sacrifice your kid on a silly altar of doping allegations. Even Abraham wanting to sacrifice Issac on the altar of his religion was more reasonable.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, please don't waste your time on these so-called Federer fans. These are not even Federer fans to begin with, they are just Nadal haters. 90% of their post are about putting Nadal down and that's because they are jealous of Nadal's success, beauty and hot girlfriend. To put him down makes them feel better about their own lives. It's too bad they pretend to be Federer fans because they make him look bad. Federer deserves real better fans.

No, they really are Federer fans. But they are also huge Nadal haters. They find every opportunity they can invent to make Nadal look bad, because he's made Federer look bad. It's painfully obvious, but it also embarrasses other, reasonable Fed fans. I go back a long way with these guys, so I won't stop "wasting my time" with them. They throw shade and shit across the forums about Nadal, and I will fight them about it. I consider it worth my time. As you can see, there are more than a few posters who buy my arguments, and have had enough of their shenanigans, in terms of just bringing it up all the time, as if it were true.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Moxie, please don't waste your time on these so-called Federer fans. These are not even Federer fans to begin with, they are just Nadal haters. 90% of their post are about putting Nadal down and that's because they are jealous of Nadal's success, beauty and hot girlfriend. To put him down makes them feel better about their own lives. It's too bad they pretend to be Federer fans because they make him look bad. Federer deserves real better fans.

Eye.

But note that there are plenty of good Fed fans, too. One extremely bad example does not make 90% as you think. Maybe you think so because those "bad Fad fans" are very vocal here, so they "sound like 90%". I tend to be positive, so IMO reasonable Fed fans are not very vocal so you don't hear them but they outnumber "Nadal haters".