The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

[Moxie]

Eye.

But note that there are plenty of good Fed fans, too. One extremely bad example does not make 90% as you think. Maybe you think so because those "bad Fad fans" are very vocal here, so they "sound like 90%". I tend to be positive, so IMO reasonable Fed fans are not very vocal so you don't hear them but they outnumber "Nadal haters".

I hope I made that clear in my above post. I have called out specific Fed fans who do it, not painted all Fed fans with the same brush. This is a minority view...just a vocal minority. And people who post regularly. I do appreciate your previous post. One for the reasonable people out there.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Moxie & Chris Koziarz, excellent & intelligent posts as always.

 

[Moxie]

@DarthFed : in a recent post on the USO thread, you stated, in your usual snide way, that Rafa fans were bringing up 2010 again, and "Djokovic wasn't any good" then. You love to think so. But besides the fact that he was #3 in the world, and he'd just beaten Roger, (though a "crap" Roger by your estimation,) you still think he was nothing like the Nole 2.0 who was looming only 4 months away. Is that a convenient was of excusing Roger's loss and Rafa's win over him, or do you honestly believe that there wasn't a progression that must have taken more than a few months to get to the world beater that he became in 2011? Because if you don't think there was, I seriously wonder about your double-standards at not at least giving that a side-eye, since you're all over Nadal for suspicious behavior. I'm not casting aspersions. (Front has, though.) But honestly, you don't think there was any of the "new Djokovic" in 2010 USO? Otherwise, then, no suspicions as to where it came from? It's a pretty short span of time.

 

[DarthFed]

@DarthFed : in a recent post on the USO thread, you stated, in your usual snide way, that Rafa fans were bringing up 2010 again, and "Djokovic wasn't any good" then. You love to think so. But besides the fact that he was #3 in the world, and he'd just beaten Roger, (though a "crap" Roger by your estimation,) you still think he was nothing like the Nole 2.0 who was looming only 4 months away. Is that a convenient was of excusing Roger's loss and Rafa's win over him, or do you honestly believe that there wasn't a progression that must have taken more than a few months to get to the world beater that he became in 2011? Because if you don't think there was, I seriously wonder about your double-standards at not at least giving that a side-eye, since you're all over Nadal for suspicious behavior. I'm not casting aspersions. (Front has, though.) But honestly, you don't think there was any of the "new Djokovic" in 2010 USO? Otherwise, then, no suspicions as to where it came from? It's a pretty short span of time.

Look at his results before and after that USO, they stunk. And at that USO he wasn't impressive either, he had more double faults than aces and had a very very weak second serve. Yes there were very little glimpses of 2011 Nole until 2011. The Davis Cup and going gluten free were mostly what gets credited for turning the corner but there naturally are those who think it could be something else. And of course they could be right.

Roger was a dumpster fire after AO that year until the indoor season, he was losing early at majors for the first time in 6 years and pretty much didn't win anything aside from Cincy. Finishing #3 that year was no accomplishment, it was actually pretty weak.

 

[Moxie]

Look at his results before and after that USO, they stunk. And at that USO he wasn't impressive either, he had more double faults than aces and had a very very weak second serve. Yes there were very little glimpses of 2011 Nole until 2011. The Davis Cup and going gluten free were mostly what gets credited for turning the corner but there naturally are those who think it could be something else. And of course they could be right.

Roger was a dumpster fire after AO that year until the indoor season, he was losing early at majors for the first time in 6 years and pretty much didn't win anything aside from Cincy. Finishing #3 that year was no accomplishment, it was actually pretty weak.

I really don't need you to recount for me the year for any of the 3. But you can't keep saying that Djokovic was "not good." He was moving towards the top version of himself, and this is incremental. And you have said that Nadal was particularly good in that USO. So, imo, unless you are willing to believe that he was getting to his best by USO 2010, you leave a very short window for gluten free and DC/beating Roger confidence to kick in. See what I'm saying? Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Rafa beat a Djokovic that was on the cusp of his best game. He did beat Roger. Even I have said that he wasn't ready to beat both, one after the other, but he was coming on very good. Unless you believe something else was in play. That's where I'm asking you to look again at your double-standards. Rafa so surely dopes, according to you and Front. But Djokovic gets the pass on gluten free and confidence? And why, because he's saved a lot of Roger's legacy by doing to Rafa what Roger couldn't do. I'm sorry, but you guys are rather transparent when it comes to agenda. I think you should be more even-handed when it comes to red flags.

 

[DarthFed]

I really don't need you to recount for me the year for any of the 3. But you can't keep saying that Djokovic was "not good." He was moving towards the top version of himself, and this is incremental. And you have said that Nadal was particularly good in that USO. So, imo, unless you are willing to believe that he was getting to his best by USO 2010, you leave a very short window for gluten free and DC/beating Roger confidence to kick in. See what I'm saying? Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Rafa beat a Djokovic that was on the cusp of his best game. He did beat Roger. Even I have said that he wasn't ready to beat both, one after the other, but he was coming on very good. Unless you believe something else was in play. That's where I'm asking you to look again at your double-standards. Rafa so surely dopes, according to you and Front. But Djokovic gets the pass on gluten free and confidence? And why, because he's saved a lot of Roger's legacy by doing to Rafa what Roger couldn't do. I'm sorry, but you guys are rather transparent when it comes to agenda. I think you should be more even-handed when it comes to red flags.

This is just wrong on many accounts. Djokovic's best tennis before 2011 clearly came in 2008 up to Wimbledon. In 2010 he lost badly to Tsonga at AO QF and ended up retiring from the match, he lost to Melzer in 4th round or QF from 2 sets up at RG, and then lost in straights to Berdych at Wimbledon in the semi. He was not looking good at all coming into that USO semi and it was a very very up and down match. Neither looked particularly good to put it mildly and the stats show it. Roger absolutely sucked after AO until Fall season indoors, he won Cincy and that was it, he often lost early at MS events and stunk at the remaining majors. No one saw Djokovic becoming a dominant force in 2011 because he hadn't shown much for 2.5 years.

And since 2011 Djoker has beaten Roger at 7 majors and beaten Nadal at 5. He's quietly done as much damage to Roger as he has to Nadal, it's just that he "should" be doing that damage to a geriatric while Rafa is just one year older than Djokovic. The losses he's taken, primarily the destruction periods where Nadal can't even take a set off of him, has done more damage mentally and to the Nadal legacy.

I've already said it is very possible Djokovic turned into superman due to something more than gluten free diet. You act like the only reason I hate Nadal is that I suspect he may have taken some wheaties throughout his career.

 

[Moxie]

This is just wrong on many accounts. Djokovic's best tennis before 2011 clearly came in 2008 up to Wimbledon. In 2010 he lost badly to Tsonga at AO QF and ended up retiring from the match, he lost to Melzer in 4th round or QF from 2 sets up at RG, and then lost in straights to Berdych at Wimbledon in the semi. He was not looking good at all coming into that USO semi and it was a very very up and down match. Neither looked particularly good to put it mildly and the stats show it. Roger absolutely sucked after AO until Fall season indoors, he won Cincy and that was it, he often lost early at MS events and stunk at the remaining majors. No one saw Djokovic becoming a dominant force in 2011 because he hadn't shown much for 2.5 years.

And since 2011 Djoker has beaten Roger at 7 majors and beaten Nadal at 5. He's quietly done as much damage to Roger as he has to Nadal, it's just that he "should" be doing that damage to a geriatric while Rafa is just one year older than Djokovic. The losses he's taken, primarily the destruction periods where Nadal can't even take a set off of him, has done more damage mentally and to the Nadal legacy.

I've already said it is very possible Djokovic turned into superman due to something more than gluten free diet. You act like the only reason I hate Nadal is that I suspect he may have taken some wheaties throughout his career.

Actually, I've never acted like the bolded above, or believed it. I think...no, I know you hate Nadal because he's done so much damage to Roger's legacy. And threatens it still. And that's why I think you push so hard the notion that he's taken "Wheaties." Period, end of story. Your agenda is so clear it's laughable. It's why you and a few other Fed fans have become unbearable lately: because Nadal is still a threat, and Roger is aging out. Oh, and yes, you do give Djokovic a pass. It's one thing to say, "it's very possible Djokovic turned into Superman due to something more than gluten free diet," and it's another to spend effort slandering him across the boards, the way you do Nadal. And that you don't. It's just a double-standard, and it's clear why. If you slur Djokovic, you risk ruining where he's beaten Rafa, and that doesn't fit into your world-view.

 

[DarthFed]

Actually, I've never acted like the bolded above, or believed it. I think...no, I know you hate Nadal because he's done so much damage to Roger's legacy. And threatens it still. And that's why I think you push so hard the notion that he's taken "Wheaties." Period, end of story. Your agenda is so clear it's laughable. It's why you and a few other Fed fans have become unbearable lately: because Nadal is still a threat, and Roger is aging out. Oh, and yes, you do give Djokovic a pass. It's one thing to say, "it's very possible Djokovic turned into Superman due to something more than gluten free diet," and it's another to spend effort slandering him across the boards, the way you do Nadal. And that you don't. It's just a double-standard, and it's clear why. If you slur Djokovic, you risk ruining where he's beaten Rafa, and that doesn't fit into your world-view.

I do think it's less likely Djoker was juicing as compared to Nadal, he doesn't have a totally suspicious absence like 2012-early 2013 and he didn't go from skinny boy to a muscle head with unlimited endurance at age 17 or 18. I also like Djoker's game and personality a lot more. Again you are acting like Djokovic hasn't damaged Roger's career as much as he has Rafa's as far as denying him a bunch of big titles. If I "slurred" Djoker it'd also ruin where he's beaten Roger, right?

Also, Roger has been aging out since 2010, nothing new there? He doesn't need his legs like the dude who's had to grind and run a million miles the last two matches to beat middleweights.

 

[Moxie]

I do think it's less likely Djoker was juicing as compared to Nadal, he doesn't have a totally suspicious absence like 2012-early 2013 and he didn't go from skinny boy to a muscle head with unlimited endurance at age 17 or 18. I also like Djoker's game and personality a lot more. Again you are acting like Djokovic hasn't damaged Roger's career as much as he has Rafa's as far as denying him a bunch of big titles. If I "slurred" Djoker it'd also ruin where he's beaten Roger, right?

No, you can excuse Djokovic beating Roger as he's been "geriatric" and you do it all the time. Nadal has been consistent since he was a guppy, and Djokovic had a surge in level in a really short amount of time. I make no judgement about that, but I'm shocked that you and Front, who pretend to be so expert in all of this doping crap, are not hair on fire about that. I find that agenda-driven.

 

[Front242]

No, you can excuse Djokovic beating Roger as he's been "geriatric" and you do it all the time. Nadal has been consistent since he was a guppy, and Djokovic had a surge in level in a really short amount of time. I make no judgement about that, but I'm shocked that you and Front, who pretend to be so expert in all of this doping crap, are not hair on fire about that. I find that agenda-driven.

Djokovic went from having severe cardio issues and multiple retirements to basically superman in the space of mere months from late 2010 to AO 2011. Hardcore Djokovic fans will naively claim he got super confident from winning DC and "gluten free". Total bs if you ask me and I've already said that imo the AO 2012 final was the most obvious display of doping in men's tennis and there were two playing for 6 hours not one, ok? So that doesn't just mean Nadal. Hope you're happy now even though I said it before and no I'm not agenda driven as you can clearly see given I just said I suspect Djokovic was clearly on some special sauce too. He was vocally very supportive of Sharadopa when she got banned and suddenly at that time went to crap himself so maybe he was on the same stuff. Meldonium use was widespread in much of the far parts of Europe and Russia so who knows.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Djokovic went from having severe cardio issues and multiple retirements to basically superman in the space of mere months from late 2010 to AO 2011. Hardcore Djokovic fans will naively claim he got super confident from winning DC and "gluten free". Total bs if you ask me and I've already said that imo the AO 2012 final was the most obvious display of doping in men's tennis and there were two playing for 6 hours not one, ok? So that doesn't just mean Nadal. Hope you're happy now even though I said it before and no I'm not agenda driven as you can clearly see given I just said I suspect Djokovic was clearly on some special sauce too. He was vocally very supportive of Sharadopa when she got banned and suddenly at that time went to crap himself so maybe he was on the same stuff. Meldonium use was widespread in much of the far parts of Europe and Russia so who knows.

LOL There have been tons of epic long matches including many starring Federer or any player. Get a life.

And btw Nadal & Djokovic had to take 30-40 seconds between points during that AO match to recuperate while Federer in his long 5 set matches takes 2 seconds between points. Hmmm what is more fishy?

 

[Moxie]

Djokovic went from having severe cardio issues and multiple retirements to basically superman in the space of mere months from late 2010 to AO 2011. Hardcore Djokovic fans will naively claim he got super confident from winning DC and "gluten free". Total bs if you ask me and I've already said that imo the AO 2012 final was the most obvious display of doping in men's tennis and there were two playing for 6 hours not one, ok? So that doesn't just mean Nadal. Hope you're happy now even though I said it before and no I'm not agenda driven as you can clearly see given I just said I suspect Djokovic was clearly on some special sauce too. He was vocally very supportive of Sharadopa when she got banned and suddenly at that time went to crap himself so maybe he was on the same stuff. Meldonium use was widespread in much of the far parts of Europe and Russia so who knows.

Interestingly, as a huge doping maven, Djokovic's extreme change never hit your radar until he seemed to be a threat to Federer's legacy, a couple of years ago, when you suddenly got your panties in a twist over the "egg." You were perfectly happy to back the status quo explanation for his improvement when he was beating Nadal and doing Roger's job towards the legacy for him. If you're honest, you'll admit that you never called out Djokovic until he looked to be a threat to Roger. That's agenda driven.

 

[Front242]

Interestingly, as a huge doping maven, Djokovic's extreme change never hit your radar until he seemed to be a threat to Federer's legacy, a couple of years ago, when you suddenly got your panties in a twist over the "egg." You were perfectly happy to back the status quo explanation for his improvement when he was beating Nadal and doing Roger's job towards the legacy for him. If you're honest, you'll admit that you never called out Djokovic until he looked to be a threat to Roger. That's agenda driven.

You just don't get it. I hate cheats in all sports but they're everywhere and it'll always be like this unfortunately. I don't give a shit about Ferrer or Errani or Cilic for that matter though at least Cilic has a good aggressive game to watch. They are all doping offenders though. Well, your beloved Ferret hasn't been officially "caught" but working with Luis Garcia Del Moral (Lance Armstrong's doctor) proves he hasn't a whole lotta Del Morals himself. Re Djokovic, what the hell would any normal sane person think when they see a guy literally overnight go from being unable to play long matches and often retiring to suddenly superman? You think that's acceptable? Most wouldn't and don't.

 

[Front242]

LOL There have been tons of epic long matches including many starring Federer or any player. Get a life.

And btw Nadal & Djokovic had to take 30-40 seconds between points during that AO match to recuperate while Federer in his long 5 set matches takes 2 seconds between points. Hmmm what is more fishy?

2 seconds. Sure. Keep smoking the shit, you lunatic. In Federer's "long" 5 setters, he usually loses them for a start unlike your beloved energizer bunny. Why would anyone need a break more than 20 seconds after hitting a winner or an ace? Only a cheat does that to stall and piss their opponent off. Nice that you're a fan of that sort of bs and support a guy who does that.

 

[Moxie]

You just don't get it. I hate cheats in all sports but they're everywhere and it'll always be like this unfortunately. I don't give a shit about Ferrer or Errani or Cilic for that matter though at least Cilic has a good aggressive game to watch. They are all doping offenders though. Well, your beloved Ferret hasn't been officially "caught" but working with Luis Garcia Del Moral (Lance Armstrong's doctor) proves he hasn't a whole lotta Del Morals himself. Re Djokovic, what the hell would any normal sane person think when they see a guy literally overnight go from being unable to play long matches and often retiring to suddenly superman? You think that's acceptable? Most wouldn't and don't.

This is my point to you. You, who keeps your beady eye on the ones you perceive as cheats, completely missed the whole Djokovic 2.0. You didn't complain about that upgrade, when it happened, and you didn't complain about him using the Egg. You came over to DT to go all hair-on-fire-about the Egg, only when Novak was looking so unbeatable as to be threatening Roger's legacy. (Probably after Djokovic winning 2015 USO.) This was 4 years after we'd debated that hyperbaric chamber on the boards. And you'd had plenty of time to wonder about the sudden increase in Djokovic's fitness. Except that you didn't. And you didn't because he was beating Nadal. I don't know what could be clearer.

 

[Front242]

This is my point to you. You, who keeps your beady eye on the ones you perceive as cheats, completely missed the whole Djokovic 2.0. You didn't complain about that upgrade, when it happened, and you didn't complain about him using the Egg. You came over to DT to go all hair-on-fire-about the Egg, only when Novak was looking so unbeatable as to be threatening Roger's legacy. (Probably after Djokovic winning 2015 USO.) This was 4 years after we'd debated that hyperbaric chamber on the boards. And you'd had plenty of time to wonder about the sudden increase in Djokovic's fitness. Except that you didn't. And you didn't because he was beating Nadal. I don't know what could be clearer.

Obviously it isn't very clear since Djokovic went on a tear in 2011 and I and others already suspected something was up and were saying it already back then, 7 years ago. So dunno where you're getting your 4 years later idea from.

 

[Moxie]

Just to bring the conversation back to where it belongs:

This is from @GSMSampras:

Federer was sick in that Miami encounter and even considered pulling out.
The reason for that lousy head-to-head is primarily those 5 meetings in 2013-14 when Federer foolishly overplayed despite injuries and never getting an answer for Nadal on clay like Djokovic managed to do since hitting his prime in 2011.

And this from @DarthFed:

I still say the real damage was 2008. That led to the "rivalry" being a joke for a long time and no one is convincing me that Wimbledon 08 and AO 09 weren't total debacles, especially the former. Nadal's been beaten by everyone and their blind grandma there since then. If Roger didn't embarrass himself that match I think the H2H would be a lot closer not to mention how we view the rivalry would be totally different as well.

_____________

You folks keep trying to re-work that H2H. There's a lot of "woulda-coulda-shoulda" in there. IF Roger hadn't played Miami in '04. IF Roger had done better at Wimbledon '08 and AO '09. IF Roger had won Rome '06 (that's one of @mrzz's speculations.) It really just proves how much you know that Rafa affects Roger's legacy. Fact is, it didn't go differently. Stop trying to rewrite it because of a few late-career victories. They are legit, but so is every match that Nadal beat Roger in, prior to those.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Just to bring the conversation back to where it belongs:

This is from @GSMSampras:

Federer was sick in that Miami encounter and even considered pulling out.
The reason for that lousy head-to-head is primarily those 5 meetings in 2013-14 when Federer foolishly overplayed despite injuries and never getting an answer for Nadal on clay like Djokovic managed to do since hitting his prime in 2011.

And this from @DarthFed:

I still say the real damage was 2008. That led to the "rivalry" being a joke for a long time and no one is convincing me that Wimbledon 08 and AO 09 weren't total debacles, especially the former. Nadal's been beaten by everyone and their blind grandma there since then. If Roger didn't embarrass himself that match I think the H2H would be a lot closer not to mention how we view the rivalry would be totally different as well.

_____________

You folks keep trying to re-work that H2H. There's a lot of "woulda-coulda-shoulda" in there. IF Roger hadn't played Miami in '04. IF Roger had done better at Wimbledon '08 and AO '09. IF Roger had won Rome '06 (that's one of @mrzz's speculations.) It really just proves how much you know that Rafa affects Roger's legacy. Fact is, it didn't go differently. Stop trying to rewrite it because of a few late-career victories. They are legit, but so is every match that Nadal beat Roger in, prior to those.

Fedtards never fail to amaze me, they are absolutely ridiculous and never make sense :scratch: :cuckoo:

Nadal fans on the other hand are well-educated, have amazing logic and are definitely the greatest fanbase on the web.

 

[mrzz]

Fedtards never fail to amaze me, they are absolutely ridiculous and never make sense :scratch: :cuckoo:

Nadal fans on the other hand are well-educated, have amazing logic and are definitely the greatest fanbase on the web.

I don't know about the rest of the Federer gang, but I probably never make sense. My wife tells me that almost everyday.

About your second phrase... well, it is true that most times the logic here amazes me to the bone.

 

[DarthFed]

Fedtards never fail to amaze me, they are absolutely ridiculous and never make sense :scratch: :cuckoo:

Nadal fans on the other hand are well-educated, have amazing logic and are definitely the greatest fanbase on the web.

Cuntdal fans are the most whiny and obnoxious bunch in any sport, don't kid yourself. Every last one of you enjoys watching him outgrind and outwork his opponents and then cry about bad luck when he gets a wittle boo boo once in awhile. Same self-serving fan base whines about YEC not moving to clay for Mr. Topspin to win it. They are often the ones who lack logic too, as in their world Novak is way behind Rafa yet they want to say Nadal is equal to or greater than Federer...not overly biased at all.