The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

[Moxie]

Well, I think it really depends upon what Roger did to "figure out" Rafa. A lot of it seems to not be him figuring something out about Rafa, but fixing a deficit (relative to Rafa) and turning it into a weapon: his backhand. A lot of Roger's problem was Rafa's left-handedness, which Rafa would exploit by hitting to Roger's backhand.

So how does Rafa adjust? Where can he hit the ball? It may be that the only way he can "adjust" and regain the edge is if Roger declines first, because Roger didn't as much "figure Rafa out" as he did fix a problem he had with the match-up.

For sure Roger's weak spot vis-a-vis Rafa was the bh. Rafa pounded his one-hander with lefty-spin, and it broke down. Consistently. What has Fed done to fix it? Bigger racket. Likely. A much stronger right shoulder? I don't think so. A more aggressive approach overall? Yes. But it's worth remembering that when Rafa was forced to adjust to Djokovic, he had to stop going reflexively to the BH, which was Novak's strength. And he did adjust to going to the FH of Novak. I think he can also adjust to not just going to BH with Roger, only. While aggressiveness is not his inclination, he has long realized that it is what wins for him, and a better serve, as well. I think he has the tools to combat Federer's very aggressive approach to him. He just has to have the commitment to them.

 

[Moxie]

I will make note that the Fed brigade felt compelled to stamp Roger's impression on this year within one hour of Rafa getting the YE#1. OK. Going forward: If Rafa holds #1 through mid-Feb., he passes McEnroe on the all-time list, as to weeks at #1.

 

[El Dude]

For sure Roger's weak spot vis-a-vis Rafa was the bh. Rafa pounded his one-hander with lefty-spin, and it broke down. Consistently. What has Fed done to fix it? Bigger racket. Likely. A much stronger right shoulder? I don't think so. A more aggressive approach overall? Yes. But it's worth remembering that when Rafa was forced to adjust to Djokovic, he had to stop going reflexively to the BH, which was Novak's strength. And he did adjust to going to the FH of Novak. I think he can also adjust to not just going to BH with Roger, only. While aggressiveness is not his inclination, he has long realized that it is what wins for him, and a better serve, as well. I think he has the tools to combat Federer's very aggressive approach to him. He just has to have the commitment to them.

The problem, though, is that while Roger has made his backhand a strength, his forehand is still better. So where does Rafa hit the ball?

People have always spoken of Roger as being a player without weakness. In the past, that wasn't entirely true. But now? It almost seems true - at least when he's healthy. So his only real weakness is his age, and the fact that he can't play as many tournaments as he once did.

But yeah, I don't think it impossible that Rafa finds some way to equalize things - at least on outdoor hards. I just can't imagine what it would be - other than something off with Roger (e.g. reverting to Shankerer, aging, back, etc). Maybe improving his return of serve?

 

[Moxie]

The problem, though, is that while Roger has made his backhand a strength, his forehand is still better. So where does Rafa hit the ball?

People have always spoken of Roger as being a player without weakness. In the past, that wasn't entirely true. But now? It almost seems true - at least when he's healthy. So his only real weakness is his age, and the fact that he can't play as many tournaments as he once did.

But yeah, I don't think it impossible that Rafa finds some way to equalize things - at least on outdoor hards. I just can't imagine what it would be - other than something off with Roger (e.g. reverting to Shankerer, aging, back, etc). Maybe improving his return of serve?

It's not like Rafa's FH is chopped liver. Yes, I think to combat Roger he needs to serve great, and return serve better. It's a question of inches, not miles.

 

[Carol]

it's a minefield of your own making. I will be frank with you, if you think a player who has won 18 titles on hard court is as good as a player who has won 65 titles. You are beyond delusional. I would pay for an Uber to take you to an asylum, but who knows you might be writing this from one already...

Nah, you should pay for a limousine to visit you at the asylum where you live for long time :cuckoo:

 

[Front242]

Nah, you should pay for a limousine to visit you at the asylum where you live for long time :cuckoo:

What an amazing comeback to a losing debate. Federberg pointed out the glaring difference in hard court titles (65 to 18) in Federer's favour and THAT is your comeback. Pitiful and childish. Both Roger and Rafa have had a great year and each with the chance to win one more big title this year (2 in Rafa's case if you count Paris but the WTF is the biggest one left this year) but you really need to forget about the Rafa is as good as Roger on everything but clay lark as it's making you look more than a bit silly.

 

[the AntiPusher]

What an amazing comeback to a losing debate. Federberg pointed out the glaring difference in hard court titles (65 to 18) in Federer's favour and THAT is your comeback. Pitiful and childish. Both Roger and Rafa have had a great year and each with the chance to win one more big title this year (2 in Rafa's case if you count Paris but the WTF is the biggest one left this year) but you really need to forget about the Rafa is as good as Roger on everything but clay lark as it's making you look more than a bit silly.

Five straight looses in a row should be enough of a motivation to win the WTF which is one tournament I think is overrated.

 

[El Dude]

Gee, I wonder why you think it is overrated.

 

[Carol]

Not at all, I keep saying that Nadal is as good as Federer in HC Outdoor. You and the other Roger's fans can say, getting mad and calling me silly whatever you want (you make me laugh) you are not not going to change my opinion because your idol has beaten him so surprisingly this year. 5 years the difference is a lot of years to be able to make more numbers and of course depending the opponents and I think Federer had easier than Nadal

 

[MartyB]

I will make note that the Fed brigade felt compelled to stamp Roger's impression on this year within one hour of Rafa getting the YE#1. OK. Going forward: If Rafa holds #1 through mid-Feb., he passes McEnroe on the all-time list, as to weeks at #1.

Nadal regaining the year end #1 ranking is a great achievement.I am happy for you and his fans. Well done & deserved. He played a full schedule and earned the points he needed to. But the player of the year is Federer. Can that really be argued? LoL

 

[Federberg]

Not at all, I keep saying that Nadal is as good as Federer in HC Outdoor. You and the other Roger's fans can say, getting mad and calling me silly whatever you want (you make me laugh) you are not not going to change my opinion because your idol has beaten him so surprisingly this year. 5 years the difference is a lot of years to be able to make more numbers and of course depending the opponents and I think Federer had easier than Nadal

You're entitled to your opinion. I wager, there isn't another Rafa fan here who agrees with you though

 

[Front242]

Argo.

Ah yeah. Had forgotten about Argo. Very good film. "Argo f**k yourself!"

 

[Carol]

You're entitled to your opinion. I wager, there isn't another Rafa fan here who agrees with you though

Oh....and I'm very concerned about it....

 

[brokenshoelace]

Nadal should absolutely go to Federer's forehand more, but not with standard cross court backhands (which is what he's doing). But rather by firing his forehand inside out early in the rallies to keep Roger guessing and make him move. One key match-up advantage for Roger right now is since he's hitting his backhand better, he's much more comfortably camping on that wing, taking the ball early and looking for an opportunity to run around it and end the point with his forehand.

 

[Federberg]

Nadal should absolutely go to Federer's forehand more, but not with standard cross court backhands (which is what he's doing). But rather by firing his forehand inside out early in the rallies to keep Roger guessing and make him move. One key match-up advantage for Roger right now is since he's hitting his backhand better, he's much more comfortably camping on that wing, taking the ball early and looking for an opportunity to run around it and end the point with his forehand.

I agree with this. And it's the Djokovic tactic really. I will say one thing though. We as fans, often don't appreciate how difficult it is for these players to adjust their games to counter something new. As a Fed fan, it always seemed so obvious, but Roger was never able to execute. In the heat of the moment, it must be a darn site more difficult not to fall into tried and trusted ways. I do think Rafa has one advantage in the attempt to come up with a solution that Roger didn't have. Back in the day, Roger was as focused on accumulating titles and maintaining his #1 ranking as he was on figuring out the Rafa puzzle. Now for both Roger and Rafa, they really should just be focusing on winning slams. It totally makes sense for Rafa to invest more time now fixing this than it did for Roger all those years ago

 

[Busted]

I will make note that the Fed brigade felt compelled to stamp Roger's impression on this year within one hour of Rafa getting the YE#1. OK. Going forward: If Rafa holds #1 through mid-Feb., he passes McEnroe on the all-time list, as to weeks at #1.

Whoop-dee-doo. He only needs another 141 weeks to catch up with Roger. He can't even stay healthy for a full year, so I don't thin Roger's too worried about Rafa overtaking his record. Plus, if Roger had wanted #1 back - he'd have played more tournaments. He's clearly said he's more interested in his health and winning the events he does enter than he cares about being #1 again. Roger's got a record that the only guy with a shot of breaking it right now is Djokovic, so why turn this year's YE #1 into Roger vs. Rafa? Especially since Roger's ready won that war and Nadal doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of catching up with him? And yes, I am deliberately fanning the flames...

 

[Busted]

Nadal should absolutely go to Federer's forehand more, but not with standard cross court backhands (which is what he's doing). But rather by firing his forehand inside out early in the rallies to keep Roger guessing and make him move. One key match-up advantage for Roger right now is since he's hitting his backhand better, he's much more comfortably camping on that wing, taking the ball early and looking for an opportunity to run around it and end the point with his forehand.

Isn't that the play Djokovic has used for years? It's worked to varying degrees. I think that would throw Roger off for a few games, but then he'd make the adjustment. I think Nadal needs to change several tactics - including coming to the net more. But we all know that Nadal, like Roger, is stubborn. At this point I just think Roger's got a lot more variety in his game and can play in different ways and make more adjustments during the match. Nadal just doesn't have as much variety and his answer to most things seems to be to stand further back in the court instead of standing closer to the baseline. Not everybody wants to - or can - hit half-volley screamers for half of the match.

 

[Fiero425]

Isn't that the play Djokovic has used for years? It's worked to varying degrees. I think that would throw Roger off for a few games, but then he'd make the adjustment. I think Nadal needs to change several tactics - including coming to the net more. But we all know that Nadal, like Roger, is stubborn. At this point I just think Roger's got a lot more variety in his game and can play in different ways and make more adjustments during the match. Nadal just doesn't have as much variety and his answer to most things seems to be to stand further back in the court instead of standing closer to the baseline. Not everybody wants to - or can - hit half-volley screamers for half of the match.

I surfed by Nadal's match yesterday and it appeared he attacked the net more! Easier to say and do with a lower ranked player like Cuevas, but he still dropped a set! Now he's withdrawn with a knee injury seeing he doesn't need the tournament to retain the #1 ranking! I just can't remember a time when so many top players are not just WD, they're "out" for significant amounts of time going months! This never happened much back in the day! A top player in the old days had to get it while the iron was hot and win as much as possible because when that body gave out, they were never the same! Surgeries weren't as common and back then you actually had to cut through the skin instead of the advanced techniques of today with cameras! Agassi's probably the only player I can think of that had some serious surgery on his wrist and got back to #1! Now it's routine to take off, have some work done, and come back at leisure to own the tour again! Too bizarre for words! :sleep:

 

[Federberg]

I surfed by Nadal's match yesterday and it appeared he attacked the net more! Easier to say and do with a lower ranked player like Cuevas, but he still dropped a set! Now he's withdrawn with a knee injury seeing he doesn't need the tournament to retain the #1 ranking! I just can't remember a time when so many top players are not just WD, they're "out" for significant amounts of time going months! This never happened much back in the day! A top player in the old days had to get it while the iron was hot and win as much as possible because when that body gave out, they were never the same! Surgeries weren't as common and back then you actually had to cut through the skin instead of the advanced techniques of today with cameras! Agassi's probably the only player I can think of that had some serious surgery on his wrist and got to #1! Now it's routine to take off, have some work done, and come back at their leisure to own the tour again! Too bizarre for words! :sleep:

That's one of the reasons people like me make a firm distinction between now and then. The game is waaaaay more physical. These guys are crazy fast. We might try to tell ourselves that guys back in the day played like this but they really didn't. I remember watching Lendl play at Wimbledon in the mid 80s. And he was whacking the ball with his forehand like you wouldn't believe. But what I've seen Roger, Rafa and Novak do routinely is simply on another level. It's one of the reasons I despair of all this cross-era compatibility stuff. In sports the competition really does get better over time. So don't be shocked that people's bodies are breaking down now. This is happening despite the superior conditioning of the modern day player because they have to be quick stronger and fitter than ever before.

 

[Fiero425]

That's one of the reasons people like me make a firm distinction between now and then. The game is waaaaay more physical. These guys are crazy fast. We might try to tell ourselves that guys back in the day played like this but they really didn't. I remember watching Lendl play at Wimbledon in the mid 80s. And he was whacking the ball with his forehand like you wouldn't believe. But what I've seen Roger, Rafa and Novak do routinely is simply on another level. It's one of the reasons I despair of all this cross-era compatibility stuff. In sports the competition really does get better over time. So don't be shocked that people's bodies are breaking down now. This is happening despite the superior conditioning of the modern day player because they have to be quick stronger and fitter than ever before.

Tennis Channel used to play matches of my favorite exhibition tournaments called World Invitational Tennis Classic! It took the top 4 men and women to play all the disciplines getting a point for each win! The ball traveled so slowly back on the 70's! Playing with wood, the only real solid shots with pace were above the shoulders; overheads and serves! It was more chess-like with strategy and really thinking through a point; sorta like the newly retired Martina Hingis! She couldn't hit the ball as hard as the Williams' so she had to outthink them! I never missed matches in the old days through 2002; now it's no big deal! Mindless aggression just isn't entertaining and I'd much rather skip video of the "ball scratching," underwear tugging, toweling off, and challenging of so many calls! It's the reason I could get away with going out to play myself and a match would still be moving along slowly when I got back! The only time I blew it was back in '90! Got a call to go out to play during the USO men's final! I figured I could catch the end, but this little known phenom named Sampras went thru Agassi in an hour and a half! It took 20 years to catch up with a replay because I couldn't believe Agassi had blown another chance to take his 1st major; losing FO to old man Andres Gomez just a few months earlier! I ramble, but that's how my scrabbled brain thinks! Sorry! Harking back is all I have! :whistle: o_O