The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

Federberg

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Haha! It's over buddy. I've put him on block. So I won't respond anymore. He was amusing for a while but I'm bored now
 

mrzz

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You still have to force him to make the adjustment. If he does, then Nadal deals with what comes then. But not making such an obvious change just because Roger might make the adjustment sounds silly to me.

Typically when Nadal is firing his forehand up the line or inside out early in the rallies, it becomes almost impossible to read, and it's where he's at his best. So no, this isn't some radical change. It's something that's well within his game that even if Roger does adjust to, it doesn't mean he's guaranteed to win.

I don't know how well this would work, but I agree with the spirit of it. I am always amused when I read posters asking for a player to change something radical and/or fundamental in their game. This kind of suggestion simply ignores how well these guys execute the things they are comfortable with.
 
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Federberg

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We saw that for years with Roger. It wasn't that he couldn't do a lot of the things he's doing now, but in the heat of the moment it's extremely difficult to execute those things under pressure. This is the key point, when these guys play the pressure must be enormous
 

britbox

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1. It’s obvious you made an appeal, you imbecile.

2. You’re a deeply insecure individual which is evidenced by your concern what other posters think about you.

3. Only an imbecile can say it’s irrational to claim that Djokovic is better than Federer game-wise.

4. Maybe I luck originality but I ain’t a bad person. You’re a scumbag.

5. I’ve been hurting your feelings by following you around. Well deserved punishment.

5... Following around and posting random abuse in threads all over the board. Yeah, it's not all one way but generally you're instigating it... wind your neck in... any new posts like that will just get removed.
 
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Fiero425

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5... Following around and posting random abuse in threads all over the board. Yeah, it's not all one way but generally you're instigating it... wind your neck in... any new posts like that will just get removed.

For those in the States, Grand Prix of Figure Skating in Beijing is replaying on the Olympic Channel! Women on now; the men in an hour and a half! Don't forget to set those clocks back an hour people! o_O :rolleyes:
 
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Busted

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You still have to force him to make the adjustment. If he does, then Nadal deals with what comes then. But not making such an obvious change just because Roger might make the adjustment sounds silly to me.

Typically when Nadal is firing his forehand up the line or inside out early in the rallies, it becomes almost impossible to read, and it's where he's at his best. So no, this isn't some radical change. It's something that's well within his game that even if Roger does adjust to, it doesn't mean he's guaranteed to win.

My thought is that it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment for Roger to make since he's been dealing with that same tactic from Djokovic for the last 8-9 years. Just about all the talking heads suggest that tactic for anyone who plays Roger - play to his FH down the line. So I guess I just don't see the surprise element if Nadal starts going it, too, when everybody else is doing it. What's Nadal's next shot when the ball comes back? Cross court to the backhand regardless of if Fed's return shot goes down the line or cross court? I think Nadal would have to think 2-3 shots ahead if he makes this adjustment and hope that Roger stays with his usual patterns - which this year has been much less predictable for him. Roger's surprised him a lot by just stepping into the court in the middle of a rally and thumping the ball at a sharp angle cross court and then if it comes back thumping his next shot hard down the line in the opposite direction. At times you've been able to see Roger setting up his winner 3-4 shots before he hits it - that deuce point in The Rally of the Year at the AO is a perfect example of that. He just kept hitting the ball shorter and shorter and at an angle to Nadal's backhand until Nadal hit a backhand deep to his forehand side and then he flicked the kill shot forehand down the line on the opposite side of the court.



So yeah...Nadal can make the adjustment you're suggesting but he's also going to have to adjust his next shot if Roger gets the ball back in play. He can't just surprise him with the 1 tactical change. It would help him considerably if he was a better server because then he'd win more cheap points with aces and unreturnable serves. Roger dropped 20 places aces on Nadal in the AO final - 3 of them in the final game to climb out of 15-40 and clinch the title. How many of those aces just barely caught the line? One of the commentators in Shanghai was saying that most players who challenge Roger's aces are doing it because they just can't believe that someone who isn't blowing it by you at 130mph+ can so consistently hit a piece of the line. You saw that in Shanghai - how many times did Nadal challenge an ace and was wrong? At least 3 times. So that's my suggestion for Nadal - serve better and win some more free points and make your life easier. He prefers a higher percentage and getting into the rally. At nearly 32 - hard for old dogs to change habits but it might be time to make a change.
 
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Fiero425

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My thought is that it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment for Roger to make since he's been dealing with that same tactic from Djokovic for the last 8-9 years. Just about all the talking heads suggest that tactic for anyone who plays Roger - play to his FH down the line. So I guess I just don't see the surprise element if Nadal starts going it, too, when everybody else is doing it. What's Nadal's next shot when the ball comes back? Cross court to the backhand regardless of if Fed's return shot goes down the line or cross court? I think Nadal would have to think 2-3 shots ahead if he makes this adjustment and hope that Roger stays with his usual patterns - which this year has been much less predictable for him. Roger's surprised him a lot by just stepping into the court in the middle of a rally and thumping the ball at a sharp angle cross court and then if it comes back thumping his next shot hard down the line in the opposite direction. At times you've been able to see Roger setting up his winner 3-4 shots before he hits it - that deuce point in The Rally of the Year at the AO is a perfect example of that. He just kept hitting the ball shorter and shorter and at an angle to Nadal's backhand until Nadal hit a backhand deep to his forehand side and then he flicked the kill shot forehand down the line on the opposite side of the court.



So yeah...Nadal can make the adjustment you're suggesting but he's also going to have to adjust his next shot if Roger gets the ball back in play. He can't just surprise him with the 1 tactical change. It would help him considerably if he was a better server because then he'd win more cheap points with aces and unreturnable serves. Roger dropped 20 places aces on Nadal in the AO final - 3 of them in the final game to climb out of 15-40 and clinch the title. How many of those aces just barely caught the line? One of the commentators in Shanghai was saying that most players who challenge Roger's aces are doing it because they just can't believe that someone who isn't blowing it by you at 130mph+ can so consistently hit a piece of the line. You saw that in Shanghai - how many times did Nadal challenge an ace and was wrong? At least 3 times. So that's my suggestion for Nadal - serve better and win some more free points and make your life easier. He prefers a higher percentage and getting into the rally. At nearly 32 - hard for old dogs to change habits but it might be time to make a change.


I should make a thread so people can list their "point of a tennis era!" That one with Fed taunting Nadal and goading him into hitting that BH to his FH to unleash! ALL TIME great stuff! Mines goes back to '95 IW when they experimented with prime time tennis on Monday! Agassi and Sampras got into one of those ball thumping rallies until Pete broke the point open with one of his running FH's making Andre scramble! Andre was so far off the court, all Pete had to do was "fluff a shot" into the open court! It didn't help Agassi psyche that Sampras actually hit 3 winners on broken strings driving him more insane! Andre had acquired the #1 ranking by winning '94 USO and beating Pete in AO final in '95! This was a great set up for their rivalry that really didn't exist! Pete owned Andre before, during, and after their primes! Heaven knows Sampras got a gift of his "pigeon" being in that last major USO final in '02! :clap: :lol6: :rolleyes:
 
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Federberg

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My thought is that it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment for Roger to make since he's been dealing with that same tactic from Djokovic for the last 8-9 years. Just about all the talking heads suggest that tactic for anyone who plays Roger - play to his FH down the line. So I guess I just don't see the surprise element if Nadal starts going it, too, when everybody else is doing it. What's Nadal's next shot when the ball comes back? Cross court to the backhand regardless of if Fed's return shot goes down the line or cross court? I think Nadal would have to think 2-3 shots ahead if he makes this adjustment and hope that Roger stays with his usual patterns - which this year has been much less predictable for him. Roger's surprised him a lot by just stepping into the court in the middle of a rally and thumping the ball at a sharp angle cross court and then if it comes back thumping his next shot hard down the line in the opposite direction. At times you've been able to see Roger setting up his winner 3-4 shots before he hits it - that deuce point in The Rally of the Year at the AO is a perfect example of that. He just kept hitting the ball shorter and shorter and at an angle to Nadal's backhand until Nadal hit a backhand deep to his forehand side and then he flicked the kill shot forehand down the line on the opposite side of the court.



So yeah...Nadal can make the adjustment you're suggesting but he's also going to have to adjust his next shot if Roger gets the ball back in play. He can't just surprise him with the 1 tactical change. It would help him considerably if he was a better server because then he'd win more cheap points with aces and unreturnable serves. Roger dropped 20 places aces on Nadal in the AO final - 3 of them in the final game to climb out of 15-40 and clinch the title. How many of those aces just barely caught the line? One of the commentators in Shanghai was saying that most players who challenge Roger's aces are doing it because they just can't believe that someone who isn't blowing it by you at 130mph+ can so consistently hit a piece of the line. You saw that in Shanghai - how many times did Nadal challenge an ace and was wrong? At least 3 times. So that's my suggestion for Nadal - serve better and win some more free points and make your life easier. He prefers a higher percentage and getting into the rally. At nearly 32 - hard for old dogs to change habits but it might be time to make a change.


Some great points. And I just love that rally. I've rematched it so many times! You make a good point about Rafa's serve. I think in particular his second serve needs some work. I always used to rage at Roger for just slicing it back in. Now he's taking cuts at it. That puts tremendous pressure on the server. He does the same thing to Murray. I think working on the second serve might be one of the toughest things to do in tennis. It's going to be fascinating to see what solutions Rafa and his team try to come up with
 

brokenshoelace

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My thought is that it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment for Roger to make since he's been dealing with that same tactic from Djokovic for the last 8-9 years. Just about all the talking heads suggest that tactic for anyone who plays Roger - play to his FH down the line. So I guess I just don't see the surprise element if Nadal starts going it, too, when everybody else is doing it. What's Nadal's next shot when the ball comes back? Cross court to the backhand regardless of if Fed's return shot goes down the line or cross court? I think Nadal would have to think 2-3 shots ahead if he makes this adjustment and hope that Roger stays with his usual patterns - which this year has been much less predictable for him. Roger's surprised him a lot by just stepping into the court in the middle of a rally and thumping the ball at a sharp angle cross court and then if it comes back thumping his next shot hard down the line in the opposite direction. At times you've been able to see Roger setting up his winner 3-4 shots before he hits it - that deuce point in The Rally of the Year at the AO is a perfect example of that. He just kept hitting the ball shorter and shorter and at an angle to Nadal's backhand until Nadal hit a backhand deep to his forehand side and then he flicked the kill shot forehand down the line on the opposite side of the court.



So yeah...Nadal can make the adjustment you're suggesting but he's also going to have to adjust his next shot if Roger gets the ball back in play. He can't just surprise him with the 1 tactical change. It would help him considerably if he was a better server because then he'd win more cheap points with aces and unreturnable serves. Roger dropped 20 places aces on Nadal in the AO final - 3 of them in the final game to climb out of 15-40 and clinch the title. How many of those aces just barely caught the line? One of the commentators in Shanghai was saying that most players who challenge Roger's aces are doing it because they just can't believe that someone who isn't blowing it by you at 130mph+ can so consistently hit a piece of the line. You saw that in Shanghai - how many times did Nadal challenge an ace and was wrong? At least 3 times. So that's my suggestion for Nadal - serve better and win some more free points and make your life easier. He prefers a higher percentage and getting into the rally. At nearly 32 - hard for old dogs to change habits but it might be time to make a change.


Completely disagree with most of this.

I'll start with the second paragraph, Nadal's serve was the least of his worries in Shanghai vs. Roger. He actually held serve quite comfortably for most of his service games. If you compare it to previous Fedal meetings on all surfaces, Federer used to be able to get into Nadal's service games much more often, but he had awful break point conversion ratio and most of the big points went Nadal's way. In Shanghai, Nadal was holding comfortably but all Roger needed was to get into one of his service games and he played the big points better, much more aggressively, and more relaxed than in the past, which makes all the difference.

As for the first paragraph, and I really don't want to sound like a jerk here, but it's mostly irrelevant. Novak's tactics against Roger don't matter because the lefty dynamic with Nadal changes the whole match-up, for better or worse. Novak will hit most of his forehands cross court to Roger's forehand because that's just how tennis rallies work (mostly cross court exchanges). This is the usual pattern of play, coupled of course with backhand to backhand exchanges in which Novak's threat of firing the backhand up the line is something Roger has to watch out for. This has nothing to do with the Nadal match-up.

Also, you bring up Djokovic's tactics with such dismissal that you'd think Roger has been whipping him all these years. He hasn't.

To be clear, I think Roger will continue to get the better of Nadal but somehow bringing up the Novak match-up coupled with dismissing how difficult it would be for players to deal with Nadal firing the inside out and DTL forehand early in the rallies is silly. Of course, for Nadal to actually do that, he'll have to deal with Roger so expertly taking time away from him and stepping up the court. THAT will be the challenge. But the notion that he'll have to think 2-3 shots ahead if he hits an inside out forehand is ridiculous. This isn't chess and that's not how tennis works.
 

brokenshoelace

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Some great points. And I just love that rally. I've rematched it so many times! You make a good point about Rafa's serve. I think in particular his second serve needs some work. I always used to rage at Roger for just slicing it back in. Now he's taking cuts at it. That puts tremendous pressure on the server. He does the same thing to Murray. I think working on the second serve might be one of the toughest things to do in tennis. It's going to be fascinating to see what solutions Rafa and his team try to come up with

Nadal has greatly improved both his first and second serve.
 

brokenshoelace

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I don't know how well this would work, but I agree with the spirit of it. I am always amused when I read posters asking for a player to change something radical and/or fundamental in their game. This kind of suggestion simply ignores how well these guys execute the things they are comfortable with.

Exactly, which is why I went for a non-radical suggestion. It's simply a tactic that Nadal has employed in his career when he's played his best tennis, it's just that he's never had to employ it against Roger since his usual pattern of play had worked so well. Now, with Roger playing the way he currently is against Nadal, this won't be nearly as easy as he's completely taking time away from him, but this isn't anything Nadal hasn't done in the past. His match with Del Potro at the US Open is the best example.

It's actually a very easy barometer to judge how well Nadal is playing. If he's comfortable hitting the forehand up the line early in the rallies, without feeling the need to pummel the backhand with 285768690 cross court forehands to get his opponent completely out of position, then he's in the zone. If he's not, then he's predictable and tentative.
 

brokenshoelace

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Oh, and Federer moves much better to his backhand side than he does to his forehand side, so if you're able to stretch him out on his forehand side (easier said than done), you're doing something right. Posting one rally from the AO final doesn't change that.
 

brokenshoelace

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Roger played only four ATP 1000 events this year (this means he skipped more of them than he played in), but he made the finals of all four and won three of them. Amazing hit ratio.

Skipping the clay season was genius for reasons beyond just preserving his body. It kept his aura of invincibility (not quite the right term since this isn't 2006 anymore but you know what I mean), kept the confidence going, maintained his ludicrous winning percentage, didn't give Nadal a chance to potentially win a match over him, etc...
 

Fiero425

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Skipping the clay season was genius for reasons beyond just preserving his body. It kept his aura of invincibility (not quite the right term since this isn't 2006 anymore but you know what I mean), kept the confidence going, maintained his ludicrous winning percentage, didn't give Nadal a chance to potentially win a match over him, etc...

Over the years, I saw it as complete stubbornness to continue going into the spider's den on clay losing final after final to Rafa! Back in the day, top players who knew better, just skipped the clay season altogether; maybe play the Italian and do some shopping like Vitas Geru.! Roger had the ability to beat Rafa on clay, but when it really counted in Paris, he rarely was even in the match! Sampras tried his hardest, but even beating past FO Champs. like Courier and Bruguera in his path, he never played a final! Sometimes it just isn't in the cards, but Roger was blessed with a Robin Soderling! :whistle: :rolleyes: :oops:
 

MartyB

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But still............
Oops I was wrong Fed beat Nadal at a GS, 3 Master's 1000's & Basel..I incorrectly stated 2 Masters. Yes I take nothing away from what Nadal achieved. But in my eyes the player of the year is Fed.