The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[herios]

New career high as of Oct. 20, in the top 100:

14. Roberto Bautista Agut 26y
47. Jack Sock 22y
50. Jan-Lennard Struff 24y
77. Diego Schwartzman 22y
87. Sam Groth 27y

 

[masterclass]

Hmm, well as I said a couple of posts ago, the Race To London is really over before the WTF, BUT it is useful for calculating Year End points as I showed.

Theoretically the 2014 race points should be "frozen" before the 2014 WTF, and at that point, the 2014 Race points and the 52 week rolling rankings match, but sometimes I notice ATP continuing to update the race points afterwards, which might be considered either a bug or a convenience...

What should happen is that the 2015 Race should be shown after the 2014 Davis Cup Finals and updated with those results, but I've noticed they often don't put it up till the start of 2015, where it does show the 2014 DC points.

But definitely you will see the Davis Cup points updating after Davis Cup in the regular 52 week rolling rankings.

The rule for the drop off is in the DavisCup.com site here.

"d) Points will be added after every round of ties and deducted at the same stage the following year."

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[masterclass]

If that's all too confusing, then on the Monday following Paris-Bercy, look at the final race standings to determine the WTF players, then forget the race points.

Thereafter just look at the 52 week rankings for Year End rankings. The previous year's WTF points will have dropped off. Then on Monday after WTF is played, WTF points will be added. After 2014 Davis Cup Finals, 2013 DC Finals points (if any) will be dropped and 2014 points added (if any) on Monday after the DC, and those will be the final Year End rankings.



Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[mrzz]

In fact, this is the point. The "official" year end rankings are those valid at the actual year end? (that is, after DC finals). Or after the WTF? The question may seem a bit silly, but isn't the YE "winner" announced just after the WTF?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Masterclass, you are indeed masterclass. Your calculations are correct and Federer needs
to outperform Novak by just 120 points in Paris + London to make it to YE #1 under the
assumptions he wins Basel and wins two live rubbers with Switzerland winning DC.

Stan is also working hard as well to ensure that both singles rubbers of Roger will be live. :snigger

 

[GameSetAndMath]

In fact, this is the point. The "official" year end rankings are those valid at the actual year end? (that is, after DC finals). Or after the WTF? The question may seem a bit silly, but isn't the YE "winner" announced just after the WTF?

Your question does makes sense. However, I don't know the correct answer. I am
working on it.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

According to the awards page of ATP, it is given to whoever
is #1 in the regular rankings of ATP at the end of the year. No, they don't wind it up
after WTF. However, in many years, by the end of WTF they might already know for sure
as to who will be YE #1 and in that case, they award the trophy in the same ceremony
instead of unnecessarily holding it off until the actual year end.

Note that the awards page says that for the future star they are using the cutoff date
of 3rd Nov for deciding who gets that award. If they were stopping at after WTF for
YE #1, they would have bothered to write explicitly the cutoff date as Nov 17th.

So, Masterclass is right.

..........and that is good news as it increases Fed's chances even better than
it would be if it was the other way.

 

[masterclass]

In fact, this is the point. The "official" year end rankings are those valid at the actual year end? (that is, after DC finals). Or after the WTF? The question may seem a bit silly, but isn't the YE "winner" announced just after the WTF?

Bolded is correct as GSaM indicated. Year End rankings are the rankings on Monday following the last official tournament of the calendar year ends, which is the Davis Cup Final. In all cases so far, the rankings have been decided prior to Davis Cup (the maximum added points wouldn't make a difference), so the award has been awarded at the World Tour Finals. But if the rankings were not decided until the results of Davis Cup were known, perhaps they would have the separate ceremony at the Davis Cup Final, or back in London. I don't know for sure about that since it hasn't happened and I have not seen it written anywhere.

Look at this "hidden" page on the ATP website and click on any of the years post 2009. The dates given are just after the Davis Cup. For example, 2012's date is November 19, 2012. Davis Cup Final 2012 started Fri Nov 16 and finished Sun Nov 18 (Verify DC date using Davis Cup website, or look at Berdych's activity for 2012 on ATP site). Monday the 19th is the official YE ranking date for 2012. This year's official Year End Rankings date will be Monday, November 24, 2014. But if the point differential between #1 and #2 is sufficient (Novak leads by 225 or more, or Roger leads) by the end of the World tour Finals, then the award will be given at the World Tour Finals as it has been.

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[masterclass]

Masterclass, you are indeed masterclass. Your calculations are correct and Federer needs
to outperform Novak by just 120 points in Paris + London to make it to YE #1 under the
assumptions he wins Basel and wins two live rubbers with Switzerland winning DC.

Stan is also working hard as well to ensure that both singles rubbers of Roger will be live. :snigger

Thanks GSaM. Stan, or Stanimal? You know, he has said since winning the Australian Open, that the biggest priority for him for the rest of the year would be Davis Cup. It could be that as we approach the DC Finals, that he is not taking too much out of himself in the lead up tournaments, just keeping somewhat match fit (like I think most of the French team is doing), though I think he might prefer to win a few more matches. Who knows? There is an excellent chance that he might be practicing very hard on clay; his footwork doesn't look quite right lately on hard.

That said, if the year end is still in doubt at the Davis Cup, it will be very interesting to see what happens. What if Roger needs the full 225? What if Roger and Stan both win their 1st rubbers? Do the Swiss tank the doubles so that Roger's second match will be live for Roger's #1? Or what if Roger wins his 1st rubber, Stan loses his 1st and the Swiss lose the doubles? Then Federer wins his 2nd, and then it is up to Stan to win the deciding rubber for the Swiss to win and for Federer to get #1? Hope it doesn't come down to that...but just saying...

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[mrzz]

Thanks Masterclass, and thanks GSM.

I think the DC situation can be even more complicated, because if the Swiss team wins, there are bonus points involved.

I am pretty sure a lot of people will blame the ATP ranking system for the "mess", when all the trouble comes from the fact that DC finals are after WTF and the own DC points awarded.

 

[Kieran]

Good discussion on rankings there, GSM, Masterclass and MrZZ, thanks for untangling the messy complications.

Rafa, meanwhile, must obviously have to win everything going from here on, to finish #1, and even then...

 

[isabelle]

Nole confirmed he'ld play Bercy where he has a titlle to defend, let's see if gluten free baby Stefan inspires him. today Nole had his 1st practice as a new dad, I guess all the family is still in Nice and Nole'll travel to Paris sunday or monday (1h flight) ??

 

[mrzz]

Good discussion on rankings there, GSM, Masterclass and MrZZ, thanks for untangling the messy complications.

Rafa, meanwhile, must obviously have to win everything going from here on, to finish #1, and even then...

Paraphrasing a poster I utterly respect, how many players would have to die for this to happen?

 

[Kieran]

Good discussion on rankings there, GSM, Masterclass and MrZZ, thanks for untangling the messy complications.

Rafa, meanwhile, must obviously have to win everything going from here on, to finish #1, and even then...

Paraphrasing a poster I utterly respect, how many players would have to die for this to happen?

:laydownlaughing :lolz: :clap :clap

 

[Front242]

Good discussion on rankings there, GSM, Masterclass and MrZZ, thanks for untangling the messy complications.

Rafa, meanwhile, must obviously have to win everything going from here on, to finish #1, and even then...

Paraphrasing a poster I utterly respect, how many players would have to die for this to happen?

It's not completely out of the question :snigger

 

[mrzz]

Considering all sort of things I've read on this very forum, I'm not so sure if it is wise to give people these kind of ideas...

 

[El Dude]

Borna Coric is now #87 in the Race to London rankings, which means he'll almost certainly finish the year in the top 100. While it is a lot of pressure to put on a 17-year old, I think we finally have our young phenom. Hopefully he and Kyrgios, as well as Zverev, are the next great generation of players.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Borna Coric is now #87 in the Race to London rankings, which means he'll almost certainly finish the year in the top 100. While it is a lot of pressure to put on a 17-year old, I think we finally have our young phenom. Hopefully he and Kyrgios, as well as Zverev, are the next great generation of players.

Don't forget Jiri Vesley even though he is bit old

 

[El Dude]

Vesely and, more so, Dominic Thiem. But I see these guys as more like future second tier players ala Ferrer/Tsonga/Berdych. They'll join Nishikori, Raonic, and Dimitrov. What we've been waiting for are the next elites, and i think so far Coric, Kyrgios, and MAYBE Zverev are our best bets. It is obviously too soon to tell on any of them, but there's some hope!

Thanasi Kokkinakis, Francis Tiafoe, Jared Donaldson, and Christian Garin are other players to keep in mind, but it is REALLY too early to speculate on how good they'll be.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Dark days are ahead because most of these guys are really boring.