The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[mrzz]

Its too bad the Agassi-Graf spawn don't play tennis...talk about tennis pedigree.

Yep. Both look like dogs

 

[Fiero425]

Yep. Both look like dogs

Player prodigies sired are rare if ever something that happens! It's more likely w/ the weak women's games; case in point the Meleeva sisters were more successful than their mother! Leo Borg has the weight of the world on his shoulders; esp. these days w/ Bjorn making late deals! I was so hoping Sandon Stolle would improve, but he stalled like so many others like Sebastien Korda! Jimmy Connors played a couple yrs. of Team Tennis in the 90's! My club, Gold River RC at the time hosted The Sacramento Capitals over the Summer! I hit a few tennis balls w/ Brett, Jimmy's son! He was not impressive at 12 or so!

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Cough…Cough….. Monica Seles… Cough…Cough

I really wish the mid-90s would have played out differently. Monica Seles-Jennifer Capriati should have been the great rivalry of the decade. We were robbed of this with Monica's stabbing and Jennifer's personal problems.

 

[El Dude]

Cough…Cough….. Monica Seles… Cough…Cough

Cough...cough...GOATness is based on what actually was, not what could have been....cough...cough...

As great as Seles was for a few years, she isn't in the GOAT conversation except as a footnote.

 

[Fiero425]

Cough...cough...GOATness is based on what actually was, not what could have been....cough...cough...

As great as Seles was for a few years, she isn't in the GOAT conversation except as a footnote.

I try to give Seles every benefit of the doubt she would have curbed the success of Graf! I was no fan; hated her game & all that fk'n sqeeky noise she made hitting every shot though! She will inevitably be a footnote, but what a footnote; a child stabbed by a fan allowing the player he supported to regain her #1 status! Graf went about her business as if nothing had happened! I couldn't care less that the 2 women are COOL about it, tennis records & history were altered irrevocably! Today it probably w/b no big deal! We see worse all the time; social media may make it go "viral!"

 

[Kieran]

I try to give Seles every benefit of the doubt she would have curbed the success of Graf! I was no fan; hated her game & all that fk'n sqeeky noise she made hitting every shot though! She will inevitably be a footnote, but what a footnote; a child stabbed by a fan allowing the player he supported to regain her #1 status! Graf went about her business as if nothing had happened! I couldn't care less that the 2 women are COOL about it, tennis records & history were altered irrevocably! Today it probably w/b no big deal! We see worse all the time; social media may make it go "viral!"

Totally true. She was a phenom, a berserk competitor and although it’s the realm of speculation, there’s no question her future was much brighter than it became. Clearly an all time great, alongside anybody, and the one who was blessed by her destruction is the one who that knife wielding maniac intended to benefit. It was the darkest day ever for tennis when she was almost assassinated in public..

 

[Jelenafan]

Totally true. She was a phenom, a berserk competitor and although it’s the realm of speculation, there’s no question her future was much brighter than it became. Clearly an all time great, alongside anybody, and the one who was blessed by her destruction is the one who that knife wielding maniac intended to benefit. It was the darkest day ever for tennis when she was almost assassinated in public..

Seles was the closest WTA player or any other tennis player for that matter IMO who matched Rafa’s mental ferocity.

That woman was a laser beam of single minded focus on the court. Unrelenting.

Not Graff’s fault but her overall record has a footnote with the letters “Monica Seles stabbed by fanatical fan to ensure Graff’s return to #1.

So glad Serena Williams surpassed Graff’s Slam count. Serena IMO the GOAT.

 

[El Dude]

I try to give Seles every benefit of the doubt she would have curbed the success of Graf! I was no fan; hated her game & all that fk'n sqeeky noise she made hitting every shot though! She will inevitably be a footnote, but what a footnote; a child stabbed by a fan allowing the player he supported to regain her #1 status! Graf went about her business as if nothing had happened! I couldn't care less that the 2 women are COOL about it, tennis records & history were altered irrevocably! Today it probably w/b no big deal! We see worse all the time; social media may make it go "viral!"

Obviously Seles was a a great player - and at her peak was possibly equivalent to the GOAT candidates. But we can't give her credit, in terms of assessing greatness, for what she could have done. Thus the footnote: that isn't a negative on her, just emphasizing the difference between what actually happened vs. any speculation.

There is similarity to the Borg situation. Borg, at his very best, was as good as anyone in the Open Era - including the Big Three. And we probably all agree that we wish he didn't retire when he did and would have loved to see how he might have fleshed out the remainder of his career, if he caught a second wind. He's very difficult to assess from a statistical point of view, because his career was so short and his counting stats not commensurate with how great he was. There is also reason to believe that even if he continued, he never would have been as dominant as he was in 78-80, that Mac had surpassed him, and he might have only eeked out another two or three Slams. But we'll never know.

Similarly, with Seles we don't know if she had the mentality to rack up the kind of career numbers of Evert or Navratilova or Graf. She certainly had similar ability, and I don't think it is crazy to think that she would have finished with 15-20 Slams, and lowered Graf's number into that range. But...she didn't.

Finally, I do think the myth around Seles has somewhat skewed the fact that Graf didn't just slump in 1990-92 because of her, but also because of personal issues and illnesses. Take Graf's 1990 season, when news broke of a scandal involving her father, leading to hear breaking down at the Wimbledon press conference. Earlier that year, she won the AO to make it 8 of the last 9 Slams, then did lose the French Open final to Seles, but also lost the Wimbledon SF to Zina Garrison and US Open final to Gabriela Sabatini. Meaning, she wasn't just losing to Seles but to other players that she had dominated previously. And it wasn't like Seles completely dominated her during Seles' big two years. If we look at 1991-93 when Seles won 7 of 8 Slams she played in, Graf was still 3-2 vs. her. Seles was 2-1 in Slams, but the two wins for Seles were close fought, while Graf spanked her at Wimbledon in '92.

I think the real tragedy--that is, outside of the stabbing itself--is that we were robbed of what could have been one of the greatest rivalries in tennis history. Evert-Martina was great for awhile but eventually Martina dominated, but one can imagine a real back-and-forth between Seles and Graf that was much more competitive than many other great rivalries.

Anyhow, I'd still probably rank Seles #5 in the Open Era WTA rankings, behind only Graf, Martina, Serena, and Evert (in that order). She'd drop down a bit if looking at all of tennis history, of course, but in my mind she's #5 in the Open Era - and thus ahead of King and Court (Open Era only), as well as Venus, Henin, Hingis, and everyone else. She was similarly talented to the four women ahead of her, but just doesn't have the career stats to be in the same category.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Obviously Seles was a a great player - and at her peak was possibly equivalent to the GOAT candidates. But we can't give her credit, in terms of assessing greatness, for what she could have done. Thus the footnote: that isn't a negative on her, just emphasizing the difference between what actually happened vs. any speculation.

There is similarity to the Borg situation. Borg, at his very best, was as good as anyone in the Open Era - including the Big Three. And we probably all agree that we wish he didn't retire when he did and would have loved to see how he might have fleshed out the remainder of his career, if he caught a second wind. He's very difficult to assess from a statistical point of view, because his career was so short and his counting stats not commensurate with how great he was. There is also reason to believe that even if he continued, he never would have been as dominant as he was in 78-80, that Mac had surpassed him, and he might have only eeked out another two or three Slams. But we'll never know.

Similarly, with Seles we don't know if she had the mentality to rack up the kind of career numbers of Evert or Navratilova or Graf. She certainly had similar ability, and I don't think it is crazy to think that she would have finished with 15-20 Slams, and lowered Graf's number into that range. But...she didn't.

Finally, I do think the myth around Seles has somewhat skewed the fact that Graf didn't just slump in 1990-92 because of her, but also because of personal issues and illnesses. Take Graf's 1990 season, when news broke of a scandal involving her father, leading to hear breaking down at the Wimbledon press conference. Earlier that year, she won the AO to make it 8 of the last 9 Slams, then did lose the French Open final to Seles, but also lost the Wimbledon SF to Zina Garrison and US Open final to Gabriela Sabatini. Meaning, she wasn't just losing to Seles but to other players that she had dominated previously. And it wasn't like Seles completely dominated her during Seles' big two years. If we look at 1991-93 when Seles won 7 of 8 Slams she played in, Graf was still 3-2 vs. her. Seles was 2-1 in Slams, but the two wins for Seles were close fought, while Graf spanked her at Wimbledon in '92.

I think the real tragedy--that is, outside of the stabbing itself--is that we were robbed of what could have been one of the greatest rivalries in tennis history. Evert-Martina was great for awhile but eventually Martina dominated, but one can imagine a real back-and-forth between Seles and Graf that was much more competitive than many other great rivalries.

Anyhow, I'd still probably rank Seles #5 in the Open Era WTA rankings, behind only Graf, Martina, Serena, and Evert (in that order). She'd drop down a bit if looking at all of tennis history, of course, but in my mind she's #5 in the Open Era - and thus ahead of King and Court (Open Era only), as well as Venus, Henin, Hingis, and everyone else. She was similarly talented to the four women ahead of her, but just doesn't have the career stats to be in the same category.

Thanks for your 'sensible reply' indeed Seles was a great player, you nailed it by saying " But we cant give credit, in terms of assessing greatness, "For What She Could Have Done! I have never been a Woulda Coulda Shoulda kind of person Graf remains one of my all time favorite players and have been lucky to witness Graf live at GS

 

[Kieran]

Obviously Seles was a a great player - and at her peak was possibly equivalent to the GOAT candidates. But we can't give her credit, in terms of assessing greatness, for what she could have done. Thus the footnote: that isn't a negative on her, just emphasizing the difference between what actually happened vs. any speculation.

There is similarity to the Borg situation. Borg, at his very best, was as good as anyone in the Open Era - including the Big Three. And we probably all agree that we wish he didn't retire when he did and would have loved to see how he might have fleshed out the remainder of his career, if he caught a second wind. He's very difficult to assess from a statistical point of view, because his career was so short and his counting stats not commensurate with how great he was. There is also reason to believe that even if he continued, he never would have been as dominant as he was in 78-80, that Mac had surpassed him, and he might have only eeked out another two or three Slams. But we'll never know.

Similarly, with Seles we don't know if she had the mentality to rack up the kind of career numbers of Evert or Navratilova or Graf. She certainly had similar ability, and I don't think it is crazy to think that she would have finished with 15-20 Slams, and lowered Graf's number into that range. But...she didn't.

Finally, I do think the myth around Seles has somewhat skewed the fact that Graf didn't just slump in 1990-92 because of her, but also because of personal issues and illnesses. Take Graf's 1990 season, when news broke of a scandal involving her father, leading to hear breaking down at the Wimbledon press conference. Earlier that year, she won the AO to make it 8 of the last 9 Slams, then did lose the French Open final to Seles, but also lost the Wimbledon SF to Zina Garrison and US Open final to Gabriela Sabatini. Meaning, she wasn't just losing to Seles but to other players that she had dominated previously. And it wasn't like Seles completely dominated her during Seles' big two years. If we look at 1991-93 when Seles won 7 of 8 Slams she played in, Graf was still 3-2 vs. her. Seles was 2-1 in Slams, but the two wins for Seles were close fought, while Graf spanked her at Wimbledon in '92.

I think the real tragedy--that is, outside of the stabbing itself--is that we were robbed of what could have been one of the greatest rivalries in tennis history. Evert-Martina was great for awhile but eventually Martina dominated, but one can imagine a real back-and-forth between Seles and Graf that was much more competitive than many other great rivalries.

Anyhow, I'd still probably rank Seles #5 in the Open Era WTA rankings, behind only Graf, Martina, Serena, and Evert (in that order). She'd drop down a bit if looking at all of tennis history, of course, but in my mind she's #5 in the Open Era - and thus ahead of King and Court (Open Era only), as well as Venus, Henin, Hingis, and everyone else. She was similarly talented to the four women ahead of her, but just doesn't have the career stats to be in the same category.

Steffi was on 11 slams when Monica was stabbed. Monica was climbing rapidly, on 8. I think it’s okay to look at the context of Steffi’s career and say she benefited hugely. She won the next four slams straightaway after Seles was stabbed. I’d place a dagger-shaped asterisk on her records…

 

[El Dude]

Steffi was on 11 slams when Monica was stabbed. Monica was climbing rapidly, on 8. I think it’s okay to look at the context of Steffi’s career and say she benefited hugely. She won the next four slams straightaway after Seles was stabbed. I’d place a dagger-shaped asterisk on her records…

Yes - and I said as much, that it is reasonable to assume that Monica would win a bunch of Slams, and Graf fewer. But that didn't happen, did it? Part of the context of Steffi's career is looking at other factors beyond Seles, which I touched upon above. Again, she was struggling for other reasons too, losing to other players. It wasn't just Seles, who she held her own against even as Seles was peaking.

Again, we don't know. Graf didn't stab Seles, so the idea of punishing her or qualifying her record because of it is beyond ludicrous.

In the end, both were great but Graf had a better career.

 

[Kieran]

Yes - and I said as much, that it is reasonable to assume that Monica would win a bunch of Slams, and Graf fewer. But that didn't happen, did it? Part of the context of Steffi's career is looking at other factors beyond Seles, which I touched upon above. Again, she was struggling for other reasons too, losing to other players. It wasn't just Seles, who she held her own against even as Seles was peaking.

Again, we don't know. Graf didn't stab Seles, so the idea of punishing her or qualifying her record because of it is beyond ludicrous.

In the end, both were great but Graf had a better career.

Seles never peaked. That’s the point. Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc. Steffi had won 9 slams before Seles won her first, and she took only two while Monica took 8.

Then she was stabbed.

You can say that Steffi had the greater career, and it’s true, because nobody stabbed her on court when she was only 20, but it’s also slightly dismissive of what happened to Seles, and what was taken away from her. Graf’s career was actually less great, when we place everything in context, and look at what price another player paid so she could go back to winning easy slams..

 

[Jelenafan]

Seles never peaked. That’s the point. Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc. Steffi had won 9 slams before Seles won her first, and she took only two while Monica took 8.

Then she was stabbed.

You can say that Steffi had the greater career, and it’s true, because nobody stabbed her on court when she was only 20, but it’s also slightly dismissive of what happened to Seles, and what was taken away from her. Graf’s career was actually less great, when we place everything in context, and look at what price another player paid so she could go back to winning easy slams..

The Graff fans rationalizations remind me of the old line….” Other then that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln? “

The fanatical deranged Parche stabbed Monica on court to remover her as a rival to Graff & have Steffi regain # 1 status. He SUCCEEDED completely.

It scars Graff’s record, sorry but her total of 22 Slams is tainted.

The only surface Graff had an edge on Seles was grass, Seles had beat her in their last clay & hardcourt Slam matches. Again not Graff’s fault but no GOAT.

 

[El Dude]

Seles never peaked. That’s the point. Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc. Steffi had won 9 slams before Seles won her first, and she took only two while Monica took 8.

Then she was stabbed.

You can say that Steffi had the greater career, and it’s true, because nobody stabbed her on court when she was only 20, but it’s also slightly dismissive of what happened to Seles, and what was taken away from her. Graf’s career was actually less great, when we place everything in context, and look at what price another player paid so she could go back to winning easy slams..

How do you know Seles never peaked? WTA players, especially back in the day, would often reach a peak level in their late teens. I mean, Steffi was 18-19 in 1988 when she won the Grand Slam. We don't know if Seles would have gotten better or how much better, or how long she would have sustained that. Again, we don't know if her personality would have translated into a long career of dominance.

You keep mentioning context but seem to ignore the factors of context that don't fit your narrative. I know, it is a fun one: "Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc." That is partially true, but there are other factors. "Context" doesn't simply mean what fits our personal narrative, but the fuller picture - which includes Graf's personal/family problems, health issues, and struggles against other players.

I am not being "dismissive" of Seles. Where do you get that? I see what happened to her as a great tragedy and would have loved to see her get a chance to carve out a larger legacy than what she ended up with (which is still quite impressive). If Borg is the big what if of the men's side of things, Seles is the big what if on the women's side - and arguably a greater what if, due to her young age. Again, Seles. could have been the greatest of all time if tragedy hadn't struck, but we'll never know.

And don't forget, she did come back and win a Slam. I know she never felt quite the same, but she also played a lot of tennis post-stabbing, and I don't think we can just magically change all that and say, "If she hadn't been stabbed, all of these would be wins."

Just as we can't credit Seles for what she might have done, I don't think we can take away from what Graf actually did. Greatness is not a hypothetical - it is what players actually accomplish. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speculate about what might have been, but that this speculation shouldn't inform in any way our assessment of actual greatness and all-time rankings.

 

[Jelenafan]

How do you know Seles never peaked? WTA players, especially back in the day, would often reach a peak level in their late teens. I mean, Steffi was 18-19 in 1988 when she won the Grand Slam. We don't know if Seles would have gotten better or how much better, or how long she would have sustained that. Again, we don't know if her personality would have translated into a long career of dominance.

You keep mentioning context but seem to ignore the factors of context that don't fit your narrative. I know, it is a fun one: "Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc." That is partially true, but there are other factors. "Context" doesn't simply mean what fits our personal narrative, but the fuller picture - which includes Graf's personal/family problems, health issues, and struggles against other players.

I am not being "dismissive" of Seles. Where do you get that? I see what happened to her as a great tragedy and would have loved to see her get a chance to carve out a larger legacy than what she ended up with (which is still quite impressive). If Borg is the big what if of the men's side of things, Seles is the big what if on the women's side - and arguably a greater what if, due to her young age. Again, Seles. could have been the greatest of all time if tragedy hadn't struck, but we'll never know.

And don't forget, she did come back and win a Slam. I know she never felt quite the same, but she also played a lot of tennis post-stabbing, and I don't think we can just magically change all that and say, "If she hadn't been stabbed, all of these would be wins."

Just as we can't credit Seles for what she might have done, I don't think we can take away from what Graf actually did. Greatness is not a hypothetical - it is what players actually accomplish. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speculate about what might have been, but that this speculation shouldn't inform in any way our assessment of actual greatness and all-time rankings.

The Seles /Borg comparisons IMO are specious & highly offensive. What happened to Seles was deliberate violent act to remove her from the game and her dominance.

We CAN under the context take away from Graff, Seles had made 8 straight Slam finals, winning 7 of ‘em. She still holds the record for most Grand Slam singles titles won as a teenager in the Open Era.

To imply she was past her peak and only coincidently Gunther Parche stabbed her ….

 

[Kieran]

How do you know Seles never peaked? WTA players, especially back in the day, would often reach a peak level in their late teens. I mean, Steffi was 18-19 in 1988 when she won the Grand Slam. We don't know if Seles would have gotten better or how much better, or how long she would have sustained that. Again, we don't know if her personality would have translated into a long career of dominance.

You keep mentioning context but seem to ignore the factors of context that don't fit your narrative. I know, it is a fun one: "Steffi was at her peak when the younger player came along and wreaked havoc." That is partially true, but there are other factors. "Context" doesn't simply mean what fits our personal narrative, but the fuller picture - which includes Graf's personal/family problems, health issues, and struggles against other players.

I am not being "dismissive" of Seles. Where do you get that? I see what happened to her as a great tragedy and would have loved to see her get a chance to carve out a larger legacy than what she ended up with (which is still quite impressive). If Borg is the big what if of the men's side of things, Seles is the big what if on the women's side - and arguably a greater what if, due to her young age. Again, Seles. could have been the greatest of all time if tragedy hadn't struck, but we'll never know.

And don't forget, she did come back and win a Slam. I know she never felt quite the same, but she also played a lot of tennis post-stabbing, and I don't think we can just magically change all that and say, "If she hadn't been stabbed, all of these would be wins."

Just as we can't credit Seles for what she might have done, I don't think we can take away from what Graf actually did. Greatness is not a hypothetical - it is what players actually accomplish. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speculate about what might have been, but that this speculation shouldn't inform in any way our assessment of actual greatness and all-time rankings.

Steffi won the grand slam when she was 19 and her rivals - Chrissy and Martina - were in their 30’s. That doesn’t mean she peaked then. It mean’s she had a great opportunity and took it. She then won 4 in a row again when her main rival was stabbed.

That much we know. She benefited from Seles stabbing. If this isn’t obvious then little is. We’re look at her immediate 4 in a row after Monica was stabbed and ask ourselves, wut, where’s the opposition.

It’s not putting her down to acknowledge this, and it’s not unreasonable to say that Seles trajectory was clearly ruined by the lunatic who wanted Steffi back on top.

That lunatic would make the arguments you’re making, brother!

 

[El Dude]

The Seles /Borg comparisons IMO are specious & highly offensive. What happened to Seles was deliberate violent act to remove her from the game and her dominance.

We CAN under the context take away from Graff, Seles had made 8 straight Slam finals, winning 7 of ‘em. She still holds the record for most Grand Slam singles titles won as a teenager in the Open Era.

To imply she was past her peak and only coincidently Gunther Parche stabbed her ….

Huh? Your last couple of posts have been frankly rather ridiculous...I ignored the first, but this one...in a way, it is almost impressive how literally every response you make is a distortion of what I actually said. I'm not implying that she was past her peak--but that it is speculative whether she would get better. Do you see the difference? Kieran is assuming she would get better, I am not. Not saying she wouldn't, just not saying she would. And where did I imply that the stabbing had no impact? Obviously it had a huge impact. And the Borg thing...highly offensive? WTF are you talking about? I'm comparing them as big What Ifs of tennis. How is that offensive?

 

[El Dude]

Steffi won the grand slam when she was 19 and her rivals - Chrissy and Martina - were in their 30’s. That doesn’t mean she peaked then. It mean’s she had a great opportunity and took it. She then won 4 in a row again when her main rival was stabbed.

That much we know. She benefited from Seles stabbing. If this isn’t obvious then little is. We’re look at her immediate 4 in a row after Monica was stabbed and ask ourselves, wut, where’s the opposition.

It’s not putting her down to acknowledge this, and it’s not unreasonable to say that Seles trajectory was clearly ruined by the lunatic who wanted Steffi back on top.

That lunatic would make the arguments you’re making, brother!

I"m a bit confused. What exactly do you want? An actual asterisk in the record books? Should we give all of Graf's post-stabbing Slam trophies to Seles? I'm joking, of course, but I just don't really get the point. Anything we might have to say about it is speculative. Speculate away, but it won't change how things ended up.

 

[Jelenafan]

Huh? Your last couple of posts have been frankly rather ridiculous...I ignored the first, but this one...in a way, it is almost impressive how literally every response you make is a distortion of what I actually said. I'm not implying that she was past her peak--but that it is speculative whether she would get better. Do you see the difference? Kieran is assuming she would get better, I am not. Not saying she wouldn't, just not saying she would. And where did I imply that the stabbing had no impact? Obviously it had a huge impact. And the Borg thing...highly offensive? WTF are you talking about? I'm comparing them as big What Ifs of tennis. How is that offensive?

Borg’s “What if” is based upon his decision to take a temporary sabbatical, from some accounts he was tired/burned out on tennis, Mac had taken his status as top player away, beating him in their last 2 Slam finals, tennis politics intervened, etc, etc. that sabbatical morphed pretty beyond that.

Seles “What if” is based on a player who won the most Slams as a teenager, had just won her 3rd Oz title besting Graff, indeed had bested Graff in 3 out of their last 4 Slam encounters, had made 8 straight Slam finals she entered & was clearly & by far the dominant # 1 player in the world. Again by far.

A Graff fanatic stabbed her courtside to remove her from the game and specifically have Graff reclaim # 1 status in the game.

Again, the two “ what ifs” are not comparable. Borg “contributed” to his demise, Seles did not.

However i concede both camps will never see eye to eye on this topic. You believe there is absolutely no asterisk in Graff’s 22 Slams, I believe there is an unprecedented huge asterisk on that record.

So we agree to disagree.

 

[mrzz]

Who are these people you keep talking about?