The Movie Reel

Moxie

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What’s the message?
Just above, you sing the praises of Westerns about a "more rugged past," which are films basically without women in them, many guns, macho men. And don't get me wrong, I love a lot of those films we're talking about. Now Margaret and I are talking about why "Barbie" is actually a good film, and you're dogging us about "what message?" Do you live in a goldfish bowl? You know what that movie has to say, at least in the cheat-sheet version. Can't Margaret and I just appreciate that film and think it was fun, without you worrying that it might be ever so slightly feminist? Give it a rest! Or better...see the film and THEN make a comment.
 

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Just above, you sing the praises of Westerns about a "more rugged past," which are films basically without women in them, many guns, macho men. And don't get me wrong, I love a lot of those films we're talking about. Now Margaret and I are talking about why "Barbie" is actually a good film, and you're dogging us about "what message?" Do you live in a goldfish bowl? You know what that movie has to say, at least in the cheat-sheet version. Can't Margaret and I just appreciate that film and think it was fun, without you worrying that it might be ever so slightly feminist? Give it a rest! Or better...see the film and THEN make a comment.
Of course appreciate it but you both mentioned a message and I asked what it was. I don’t know much about the film at all, it wasn’t for me at first glance. I know a lot of people enjoyed it, people whose judgment I trust.

As for westerns and no women in them etc, we’re not living in the fifties anymore. Women have been prominent in films for a long time now, to the benefit of cinema. Especially Greta Gerwig, who is excellent..
 

Moxie

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Of course appreciate it but you both mentioned a message and I asked what it was. I don’t know much about the film at all, it wasn’t for me at first glance. I know a lot of people enjoyed it, people whose judgment I trust.

As for westerns and no women in them etc, we’re not living in the fifties anymore. Women have been prominent in films for a long time now, to the benefit of cinema. Especially Greta Gerwig, who is excellent..
Nicely backed away, with faux innocence. You're hilarious. Now, since you're such a fan of Greta Gerwig, and rightly, can I recommend you see the film? I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The film puts a gimlet eye to its subject.
 

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Nicely backed away, with faux innocence. You're hilarious. Now, since you're such a fan of Greta Gerwig, and rightly, can I recommend you see the film? I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The film puts a gimlet eye to its subject.
Now now. I don’t back away. You ought to be aware of that by now. Especially when there’s no reason to. I’ll probably see Barbie on TV some Christmas because the missus wants to. I’m not interested in Hollywood ideas of feminism in any pictures though..
 
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Moxie

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Now now. I don’t back away. You ought to be aware of that by now. Especially when there’s no reason to. I’ll probably see Barbie on TV some Christmas because the missus wants to. I’m not interested in Hollywood ideas of feminism in any pictures though..
OMG, even if they just sneak it in? You clearly have no aversion to the obvious machismo in Hollywood films. Barbie is surprisingly subversive, which I think you will appreciate.
 
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OMG, even if they just sneak in? You clearly have no aversion to the machismo in Hollywood films. Barbie is surprisingly subversive, which I think you will appreciate.
Not even if they sneak in, though of course they have to sneak in their far left nonsense in every film, to it’s detriment.

I think I actually might enjoy Barbie, though don’t let the missus know…
 
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Moxie

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Not even if they sneak in, though of course they have to sneak in their far left nonsense in every film, to it’s detriment.

I think I actually might enjoy Barbie, though don’t let the missus know…
I refuse to make every thread about PC BS, to its detriment, but why is a female-forward film, or even a feminist message "far left nonsense," when every hyper-macho film is just par for the course? Even you must see the irony in that.
 

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I refuse to make every thread about PC BS, to its detriment, but why is a female-forward film, or even a feminist message "far left nonsense," when every hyper-macho film is just par for the course? Even you must see the irony in that.
Well it depends on how you define ‘feminist’, especially when it comes to Hollywood. It might not be best to pursue this here.

Action films are popular, that’s why they get made…
 

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Well it depends on how you define ‘feminist’, especially when it comes to Hollywood. It might not be best to pursue this here.
Definitely not.
Action films are popular, that’s why they get made…

"Action" films are not always equivalent to hyper-masculine films. Often they are, but also often they have a strong female character to broaden the appeal, ("Speed," "Die-Hard"...two very successful and macho action movies, both of which I could watch every time they come on.) Some even at the center: "Alien" franchise.

It was Westerns that were being discussed when I made mention of your comment. War films often are. Almost anything by Quentin Tarantino. There are plenty of films that I would consider hyper-masculine that are among my favorites. "Bullitt" was recently mentioned by @Vince Evert in this fun thread:

Great film! Super-butch.

I will not politicize this thread, but I think it's ok to talk "guy-films," "chick-flix," and the Venn diagram of where they overlap. Likewise, it would be fun to hear "chick" films that the men around here love, and "guy-guy" films that the women do, however folks interpret that.

Oh, and
"Barbie" has action!

:lulz1:
 
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Kieran

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Definitely not.


"Action" films are not always equivalent to hyper-masculine films. Often they are, but also often they have a strong female character to broaden the appeal, ("Speed," "Die-Hard"...two very successful and macho action movies, both of which I could watch every time they come on.) Some even at the center: "Alien" franchise.

It was Westerns that were being discussed when I made mention of your comment. War films often are. Almost anything by Quentin Tarantino. There are plenty of films that I would consider hyper-masculine that are among my favorites. "Bullitt" was recently mentioned by @Vince Evert in this fun thread:

Great film! Super-butch.

I will not politicize this thread, but I think it's ok to talk "guy-films," "chick-flix," and the Venn diagram of where they overlap. Likewise, it would be fun to hear "chick" films that the men around here love, and "guy-guy" films that the women do, however folks interpret that.

Oh, and
"Barbie" has action!

:lulz1:
Absolutely and I’m glad you acknowledge that there’s chick flix and blokes fillums and there’s nothing wrong with that. A lot of people dislike the term chick flick but they know what we mean. And also Greta makes what are commonly called “women’s films” but they’re high grade stuff and I love them.

Action flicks and Tarantino etc, I don’t see anything wrong with this. Muscular hyper male things, that’s fine because it’s either entertaining or it isn’t. The audience isn’t stupid. I don’t buy into ideas like toxic masculinity or a lot modern thought regarding gender roles (I’m not against everything in this area, I’m glad to see great women directors get their chance just as much as I’m glad to see anyone who’s great get their chance, doesn’t matter to me their race or their gender) so I don’t get distracted by thinking if something is offensive. If it’s offensive, switch it off. Watch something else. Generally films follow the money and when genres become stale and overworked, they fade, maybe to return some day.

Hopefully Marvel films fade and don’t return.

You mentioned Alien. Who even thinks about it that Ripley is the main character? This is because it’s germane to the plot, and not far fetched, and not politically forced onto the filmmaker. And it’s a great film. Same with Sarah Connor. Nobody batted an eye. Recently I watched the excellent addition to the Predator movies - Prey. I thought it was excellent and that Amber Midthunder was perfect as the lead.

I don’t have any issues with this kind of thing. As long as it’s creative and driven by creative people, it’ll either work or not work.

As for the women’s films I like, I get mushy in a macho way over a lot of films the missus wants to watch. And I say “the missus wants to watch” because generally I wouldn’t put them on. Except A Good Year by Ridley Scott, with Russell Crowe and Marion Cotillard. I love that film, just simply because I feel good watching it. Sense and Sensibility, some funny Richard Curtis stuff like Love Actually, I’m not above watching things like that at Christmas. Old classics with great old actresses.

I don’t look down on women’s films, they’re different and that’s what we need. I think that any film can be ruined by the anachronistic intrusion of modern politics, but generally if the creatives are in control, I have my preferences but no prejudices…
 
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Moxie

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Absolutely and I’m glad you acknowledge that there’s chick flix and blokes fillums and there’s nothing wrong with that. A lot of people dislike the term chick flick but they know what we mean. And also Greta makes what are commonly called “women’s films” but they’re high grade stuff and I love them.
But they just are! Sometimes, anyway, "chick flicks" and "bloke fillums," as you very Oirishly say. Films are made in genres, mostly, and there is beauty in that. I have no problem with that, as long as people approach films with open minds. I love that you are a Greta Gerwig fan, and yes, she does rather make "women's films." I believe she remade "Little Women." There's a flag. LOL.
Action flicks and Tarantino etc, I don’t see anything wrong with this. Muscular hyper male things, that’s fine because it’s either entertaining or it isn’t. The audience isn’t stupid. I don’t buy into ideas like toxic masculinity or a lot modern thought regarding gender roles (I’m not against everything in this area, I’m glad to see great women directors get their chance just as much as I’m glad to see anyone who’s great get their chance, doesn’t matter to me their race or their gender) so I don’t get distracted by thinking if something is offensive. If it’s offensive, switch it off. Watch something else. Generally films follow the money and when genres become stale and overworked, they fade, maybe to return some day.
Totally agreed. If you make a good film, people will (usually) go and see it. (Or find it, eventually.) There is something to be said for diversity of filmmakers and stories, because not everyone has felt themselves represented on screen or behind the camera, and there is money to be made in broadening appeal, which has been learned. But also, when a piece of art gets made, like "Moonlight," it catches a wide audience, exactly because, as you say, people aren't stupid, and they respond to real art. Not the "paint-by-numbers" version of diversity, but real people stories, or really well-spun yarns.
Hopefully Marvel films fade and don’t return.
Amen. I completely bemoan that Hollywood is almost completely committed to comic books and franchises...repeating themselves endlessly. Don't get me wrong...there are comic book movies I have loved. But the fear-based notion that the only thing that can succeed is what has already succeeded will kill Hollywood.
You mentioned Alien. Who even thinks about it that Ripley is the main character? This is because it’s germane to the plot, and not far fetched, and not politically forced onto the filmmaker. And it’s a great film. Same with Sarah Connor. Nobody batted an eye. Recently I watched the excellent addition to the Predator movies - Prey. I thought it was excellent and that Amber Midthunder was perfect as the lead.

I don’t have any issues with this kind of thing. As long as it’s creative and driven by creative people, it’ll either work or not work.
Sarah Conner in "Terminator" franchise...well-mentioned. Films made by great filmmakers (even though I don't love David Cameron, across the board.) They had great stories and told them. Sarah Conner could only have been a woman, because she was the mother. But when the first film was a hit, he made a genius follow-up, and made her a total badass.
As for the women’s films I like, I get mushy in a macho way over a lot of films the missus wants to watch. And I say “the missus wants to watch” because generally I wouldn’t put them on. Except A Good Year by Ridley Scott, with Russell Crowe and Marion Cotillard. I love that film, just simply because I feel good watching it. Sense and Sensibility, some funny Richard Curtis stuff like Love Actually, I’m not above watching things like that at Christmas. Old classics with great old actresses.
I haven't seen "A Good Year," but I love Ridley, so I'll look out for it. Funny, I wondered if "Love, Actually" would get a mention. I absolutely HATED that film when it came out, but my mom loved it, so we watched it every Christmas, just the two of us, before the whole family showed up, usually, and I just love it now.
I don’t look down on women’s films, they’re different and that’s what we need. I think that any film can be ruined by the anachronistic intrusion of modern politics, but generally if the creatives are in control, I have my preferences but no prejudices…
There are plenty of great "women's films," especially from the early days. I have no doubt that you don't look down on them. I think we both agree that a good story, well-told, is the answer. Not a film Frankensteined together by committee.

Which is why the "Barbenheimer" phenomenon caught hold this summer. Two very different films, but made by real filmmakers, with a point of view. People were hungry for a good film, on the big screen.
 
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shawnbm

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One of my all-time favorite films is an Italian masterpiece, "Cinema Paradiso"--how do we characterize that film?

How about "Gaslight" or "Notorious"?

I could talk about films all day and go back to the "Casablanca" and Buster Keaton days. Such great stuff
 
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Kieran

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But they just are! Sometimes, anyway, "chick flicks" and "bloke fillums," as you very Oirishly say. Films are made in genres, mostly, and there is beauty in that. I have no problem with that, as long as people approach films with open minds. I love that you are a Greta Gerwig fan, and yes, she does rather make "women's films." I believe she remade "Little Women." There's a flag. LOL.
I've seen Ladybird and Little Women and loved them both. She's a clearheaded film-maker, no doubt about it. And Barbie was brave, so it shows that at her peak (if it is her peak) she's not playing it safe, which is great. She can go anywhere next.
Totally agreed. If you make a good film, people will (usually) go and see it. (Or find it, eventually.) There is something to be said for diversity of filmmakers and stories, because not everyone has felt themselves represented on screen or behind the camera, and there is money to be made in broadening appeal, which has been learned. But also, when a piece of art gets made, like "Moonlight," it catches a wide audience, exactly because, as you say, people aren't stupid, and they respond to real art. Not the "paint-by-numbers" version of diversity, but real people stories, or really well-spun yarns.
The paint-by-numbers DIE (Diversity etc) policy is making television shows unbearable with its 'inclusion' hideosities throwing up some really anachronistic and offensively dumb programmes, but actually when it's done creatively, we don't notice. We know good stories, we know good acting, and film-making. I think none of these things should be politicised because the minute they are, they promote bad ideas, and division. But better opportunities to compete for positions everywhere is the most desirable thing, then choose the best from that.

South Park have a funny but true take on the diversification policies today, I'm sure you've seen it. We're watching a great TV show on Disney - A Murder at the End of the World - created by Brit Marling and Zal Batmanglij. Can't get more diverse, and their track record is exceptional, especially Brit, who co-wrote Another Earth, acted in i Origins. Hopefully they're supported more in future than they were by Netflix, which cancelled The OA, though it had an audience and reviews to back it up.
Amen. I completely bemoan that Hollywood is almost completely committed to comic books and franchises...repeating themselves endlessly. Don't get me wrong...there are comic book movies I have loved. But the fear-based notion that the only thing that can succeed is what has already succeeded will kill Hollywood.
These films are generally awful I gave up before the credits for Thor Ragnorak. With Jeff Goldblum dressed as Widow Twanky, these films are more camp and tacky than the sixties Batman TV show. Martin Scorsese was correct that these films reflect nothing of the human experience. They're chewing gum for the brain, and as difficult to digest, but I think you mentioned above that maybe folks are growing too old for them now, so hopefully what comes along next is better.

Sarah Conner in "Terminator" franchise...well-mentioned. Films made by great filmmakers (even though I don't love David Cameron, across the board.) They had great stories and told them. Sarah Conner could only have been a woman, because she was the mother. But when the first film was a hit, he made a genius follow-up, and made her a total badass.
James Cameron takes some of the good out his movies by writing the scripts himself. He hasn't written a single line worth quoting.
I haven't seen "A Good Year," but I love Ridley, so I'll look out for it. Funny, I wondered if "Love, Actually" would get a mention. I absolutely HATED that film when it came out, but my mom loved it, so we watched it every Christmas, just the two of us, before the whole family showed up, usually, and I just love it now.
Well that's partly why I like A Good Year - it was a film I enjoyed first watching with my folks. But it helps that it's good to look at and the story is both funny and uplifting.
There are plenty of great "women's films," especially from the early days. I have no doubt that you don't look down on them. I think we both agree that a good story, well-told, is the answer. Not a film Frankensteined together by committee.

There were strong kick-arse women in films since Hollywood was first spawned. Even in old women's films from the past. Barbara Stanwyck always comes to mind, Double Indemnity being one of the greatest examples - and films.
 
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Yeah I saw that critics were complaining about the film. He didn’t hire any actors from the 1800’s apparently. But they were all busy pushing up daisies. He told them all to feck off. Scott is a great director. He’s got swagger too..
Wonder how Gladiator 2 is gonna turn out.
 

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Wonder how Gladiator 2 is gonna turn out.
Being honest with you brother, I generally love Ridley Scott flicks but I didn't like Gladiator. I was like Larry David in the audience for that one. Tried it again last year and....was like Larry David on the sofa...

:lulz1:
 
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Why see that when you can view the original Spartacus (1960) with Kirk Douglas, Lord Laurence Olivier, Jean Simmons and Peter Ustinov ???? That was and remains the most amazing of any gladiatorial epics.
 

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Why see that when you can view the original Spartacus (1960) with Kirk Douglas, Lord Laurence Olivier, Jean Simmons and Peter Ustinov ???? That was and remains the most amazing of any gladiatorial epics.
Or the great TV show Rome, which still stands for me as the greatest show or film based on Ancient Rome, and also as the perfect antidote to the glossy, silly, wasted film, Gladiator...
 

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I will have to check out Rome. Did you ever see the TV series, Spartacus--Blood and Sand? Folks say it is fairly good.
 

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I will have to check out Rome. Did you ever see the TV series, Spartacus--Blood and Sand? Folks say it is fairly good.
I saw bits. Rome is one of the HBO shows that are examples of how it got its reputation for great TV..
 

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One of my all-time favorite films is an Italian masterpiece, "Cinema Paradiso"--how do we characterize that film?

How about "Gaslight" or "Notorious"?

I could talk about films all day and go back to the "Casablanca" and Buster Keaton days. Such great stuff
We absolutely don't have to categorize all films, especially as "chick flicks" or "guy films." Some are just great films. You listed a few of my favorites, right there. Films I could watch over and over. "Cinema Paradiso" is a particular gem. I can't watch it all the time, because the end does make me cry. But it's a valentine to cinema.