The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

[Sundaymorningguy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

True she hasn't faced a consistently great player in a while, but that doesn't mean her job has gotten any easier. Her serve will always make her a factor, and until other girls realize a value in having a reliable serve they are going to continue to have consistency issues. That isn't something Serena can help, but as she has shown she is there for the taking and a few people have started to do just that.

 

[Kieran]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

True she hasn't faced a consistently great player in a while, but that doesn't mean her job has gotten any easier. Her serve will always make her a factor, and until other girls realize a value in having a reliable serve they are going to continue to have consistency issues. That isn't something Serena can help, but as she has shown she is there for the taking and a few people have started to do just that.

Do you not think that she's lost a few because she's begun to tighten up? And that now she's won her 22nd, she might start to swing free and win a few more, as Billie Jean King* said on BBC?


* Or is it Billie Jean Queen nowadays? I lose track of current PC trends, and how confused people get about gender politic self-identifier thingies...

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

It's a great win for Serena, and moves her level with Graf on slams. Steffi benefited from Seles stabbing, and Serena has faced girls who's idea of "pinpoint accuracy off the ground" might tally with your own definition of "wonky legs on a shopping trolley", so they're both suited to be level on slams. Chris and Martina won 18 each, which is incredible considering they actually faced somebody who could hit a ball.

I would still think Martina is the definitive female tennis player, but Serena is of course great - albeit a giant among pygmies, which makes collecting these titles soooo much easier...

I don't think these titles have been easier to collect. I think a lot of players have really taken it to Serena these past few years 2014-2016, Serena isn't an easy out for anyone. I think you can say that about 2012-2013, but things have been mounting against Serena. Some of it induced by herself and some of it by legitimate talent really coming for her. Kerber played her very well. Their numbers for the match were decent.T

She hasn't faced a single great player in how many years? And even the great players she ever faced, like Henin and Hingis, were lightweights, historically...

EDIT: by the way, I'm not saying Serena isn't a great player - she's one of the greatest ever. But number crunching these things in a simplistic way rarely tells the full tale...

Brother Serena is the GOAT.. She is a better singles victories player than Nav but not a better doubles victories player than Martina N or H,

 

[Calvy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

It's a great win for Serena, and moves her level with Graf on slams. Steffi benefited from Seles stabbing, and Serena has faced girls who's idea of "pinpoint accuracy off the ground" might tally with your own definition of "wonky legs on a shopping trolley", so they're both suited to be level on slams. Chris and Martina won 18 each, which is incredible considering they actually faced somebody who could hit a ball.

I would still think Martina is the definitive female tennis player, but Serena is of course great - albeit a giant among pygmies, which makes collecting these titles soooo much easier...

I don't think these titles have been easier to collect. I think a lot of players have really taken it to Serena these past few years 2014-2016, Serena isn't an easy out for anyone. I think you can say that about 2012-2013, but things have been mounting against Serena. Some of it induced by herself and some of it by legitimate talent really coming for her. Kerber played her very well. Their numbers for the match were decent.

She hasn't faced a single great player in how many years? And even the great players she ever faced, like Henin and Hingis, were lightweights, historically...

EDIT: by the way, I'm not saying Serena isn't a great player - she's one of the greatest ever. But number crunching these things in a simplistic way rarely tells the full tale...

Well, one could argue, outside of Evert, Martina N didn't face anyone but lightweight greats like Mandlikova,Austin, Jaeger and Sukova.

Then if you look at Graf, after Seles was stabbed,she faced Arantxa, Conchita, Mary Jo, Sabatini, Novotna, Anke Huber.

So, basically in any greats generation, you could make a claim or point out f dips in the competition level once you look down from the top spot.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

I think the difference where Serena is concerned and I think this is what separates her from everyone men and women tennis players is the want. Nowhere do you hear any other tennis player saying: The final of slams are a great result for everyone else, but I'm not just anybody else. I think I would be gobsmacked if another player said anything remotely like that.

 

[Kieran]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Well, one could argue, outside of Evert...

Chris Evert won 18 slams, while sharing floor space with Martina. I think that's quite a haul. Put it this way, would she be stuck on only 18 if all she had to face were the makeweights?

Would Martina?

These two had it tough...

 

[Calvy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Well, one could argue, outside of Evert...

Chris Evert won 18 slams, while sharing floor space with Martina. I think that's quite a haul. Put it this way, would she be stuck on only 18 if all she had to face were the makeweights?

Would Martina?

These two had it tough...

First off, Martina didn't start racking up slams until 1982, by then Chris had 11 slams. From 1982 through 1990, Martina won 15 slams. Oh the seven slams Evert won in that same period, she only faced Martina three times. Now prior to 1982, Martina only faced Chris in 4 slam finals, winning 3 times.

So, from that I'm not sure Martina would have won that many more slams. Evert on the other hand, probably would have, and if one takes in the fact she skipped several French Opens and Aussie Open for may years, it's almost a guarantee she would have been in the 20's.

Now, I won't even go into the Tracy Austin factor.

 

[Kieran]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Well, one could argue, outside of Evert...

Chris Evert won 18 slams, while sharing floor space with Martina. I think that's quite a haul. Put it this way, would she be stuck on only 18 if all she had to face were the makeweights?

Would Martina?

These two had it tough...

First off, Martina didn't start racking up slams until 1982, by then Chris had 11 slams. From 1982 through 1990, Martina won 15 slams. Oh the seven slams Evert won in that same period, she only faced Martina three times. Now prior to 1982, Martina only faced Chris in 4 slam finals, winning 3 times.

So, from that I'm not sure Martina would have won that many more slams. Evert on the other hand, probably would have, and if one takes in the fact she skipped several French Opens and Aussie Open for may years, it's almost a guarantee she would have been in the 20's.

Now, I won't even go into the Tracy Austin factor.

Martina won her first slam in 1978.

Not only did she have Evert, but in her later career she had Graf. And as you agree, Evert had Martina. These are a lot tougher than Shankovic, Safina and Pippy Longstockings. Serena is great, and I love seeing her break records, but the rhetoric is so cheap and now, as if she's inventing the wheel. Modern people are so desperate to be absolute and definitive in their modern sports stars. The superlatives get outta hand. No, there were great players before her, and although I'd have her up there, she wouldn't be the greatest female player I've ever seen...

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Chris Evert won 18 slams, while sharing floor space with Martina. I think that's quite a haul. Put it this way, would she be stuck on only 18 if all she had to face were the makeweights?

Would Martina?

These two had it tough...

First off, Martina didn't start racking up slams until 1982, by then Chris had 11 slams. From 1982 through 1990, Martina won 15 slams. Oh the seven slams Evert won in that same period, she only faced Martina three times. Now prior to 1982, Martina only faced Chris in 4 slam finals, winning 3 times.

So, from that I'm not sure Martina would have won that many more slams. Evert on the other hand, probably would have, and if one takes in the fact she skipped several French Opens and Aussie Open for may years, it's almost a guarantee she would have been in the 20's.

Now, I won't even go into the Tracy Austin factor.

Martina won her first slam in 1978.

Not only did she have Evert, but in her later career she had Graf. And as you agree, Evert had Martina. These are a lot tougher than Shankovic, Safina and Pippy Longstockings. Serena is great, and I love seeing her break records, but the rhetoric is so cheap and now, as if she's inventing the wheel. Modern people are so desperate to be absolute and definitive in their modern sports stars. The superlatives get outta hand. No, there were great players before her, and although I'd have her up there, she wouldn't be the greatest female player I've ever seen...

Henin, Venus , Hingis, Clisters, Pova, Davenport, Vika and Capitati were pretty tough hombres , I don't think Martina would have had her way with them as she did at times with Evert and the others besides Graf she faced. Serena "s accomplishments shouldn't be slighted, She would have beaten Martina at least 70% of the time.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

I was going to say each era is different and has its own challenges. Serena faced an onslaught of players with varying degrees and strengths in tennis. Everyone forgets one of Serena's fiercest competitors Capriati in which in all of their matches it was always a toss up who would win I felt. There was Henin who wouldn't back down. Azarenka seems up to the task and has some good wins over Serena while not at a slam I feel it is due. Kuzzy has played Serena well. Venus plays her well. Kerber now plays Serena well. Garbine has a couple of French Open scalps of Serena, so she is playing a great many number of great players unfortunately they just aren't consistently great.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Just giving a bump.

Debate on folks. Who is the GOATESS?

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Q. Who among all the women you've seen play over the

last 50+ years could have handled Serena routinely


Billie Jean King: Nobody................Every Generation

gets better




http://espn.go.com/espnw/video/10275867/billie-jean-king-serena?ex_cid=2014_bnnr_ESPNWTDFY14_OutbrainD_aqsn

Who said anything about handling Serena routinely? It appears Serena has been her best "worst" enemy with layoffs, not being in condition, and illness! Illnesses may not have been avoided, but her lack of training certainly had something to do with being out of condition, possibe injuries, and losing to players I'd never heard of! She had a responsibility being the top ranked woman and I don't think she took it seriously until the last couple years, giving us players like Safina, Wozniacki, and Jankovic as WTA's #1 ranked women without a sniff of a major! That had never happened in the past and I lay that on the doorsteps of both Venus and Serena being part time players! They were touted as the best of all time, but didn't act like it when they could have done more! Again, illness did not have everything to do with this state of affairs, I know and you know that, so please don't take offense at this rebuke! Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh:

I know you have bug up your rear about the Williams not performing up to your very high level when they were younger, but you cannot blame the #1 revolving door on Venus and Serena. How about putting some of that blame where it belongs: Justine Henin. If Henin hadn't abruptly retired, the rankings wouldn't have been shook up as they were in 2008.

I would even throw Kim Clijsters, Ana Ivanovic, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, and Maria Sharapova under the bus for this as well. Those players were primed to do some damage while Serena and Venus were out with illnesses, injuries and other things. The fact that they made little use out of their absence to jump start and progress their careers and make a solid top 5 while they were out for various reason says something too. Though, Clijsters very smartly came out of retirement to snag a few as she saw the WTA for the taking and then Ms. Henin followed suit, but not to better success.

 

[Calvy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Chris Evert won 18 slams, while sharing floor space with Martina. I think that's quite a haul. Put it this way, would she be stuck on only 18 if all she had to face were the makeweights?

Would Martina?

These two had it tough...

First off, Martina didn't start racking up slams until 1982, by then Chris had 11 slams. From 1982 through 1990, Martina won 15 slams. Oh the seven slams Evert won in that same period, she only faced Martina three times. Now prior to 1982, Martina only faced Chris in 4 slam finals, winning 3 times.

So, from that I'm not sure Martina would have won that many more slams. Evert on the other hand, probably would have, and if one takes in the fact she skipped several French Opens and Aussie Open for may years, it's almost a guarantee she would have been in the 20's.

Now, I won't even go into the Tracy Austin factor.

Martina won her first slam in 1978.

Not only did she have Evert, but in her later career she had Graf. And as you agree, Evert had Martina. These are a lot tougher than Shankovic, Safina and Pippy Longstockings. Serena is great, and I love seeing her break records, but the rhetoric is so cheap and now, as if she's inventing the wheel. Modern people are so desperate to be absolute and definitive in their modern sports stars. The superlatives get outta hand. No, there were great players before her, and although I'd have her up there, she wouldn't be the greatest female player I've ever seen...

I know when Martina won her first slam, she didon't start RACKING them up until 1982. Meaning winning them left and right, not once and awhile.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

A numbers based comparison of Serena and Graf presented by SI.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

First off, Martina didn't start racking up slams until 1982, by then Chris had 11 slams. From 1982 through 1990, Martina won 15 slams. Oh the seven slams Evert won in that same period, she only faced Martina three times. Now prior to 1982, Martina only faced Chris in 4 slam finals, winning 3 times.

So, from that I'm not sure Martina would have won that many more slams. Evert on the other hand, probably would have, and if one takes in the fact she skipped several French Opens and Aussie Open for may years, it's almost a guarantee she would have been in the 20's.

Now, I won't even go into the Tracy Austin factor.

Martina won her first slam in 1978.

Not only did she have Evert, but in her later career she had Graf. And as you agree, Evert had Martina. These are a lot tougher than Shankovic, Safina and Pippy Longstockings. Serena is great, and I love seeing her break records, but the rhetoric is so cheap and now, as if she's inventing the wheel. Modern people are so desperate to be absolute and definitive in their modern sports stars. The superlatives get outta hand. No, there were great players before her, and although I'd have her up there, she wouldn't be the greatest female player I've ever seen...

I know when Martina won her first slam, she didon't start RACKING them up until 1982. Meaning winning them left and right, not once and awhile.

Besides turmoil in her personal life defecting, Martina had to deal with a lot more players with superior resumes at the time; Evert, Wade, Goolagong, then Jaeger, Shriver, Mandlikova, & Austin OTTH! :nono :angel: :dodgy: :cover

 

[Calvy]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

Martina won her first slam in 1978.

Not only did she have Evert, but in her later career she had Graf. And as you agree, Evert had Martina. These are a lot tougher than Shankovic, Safina and Pippy Longstockings. Serena is great, and I love seeing her break records, but the rhetoric is so cheap and now, as if she's inventing the wheel. Modern people are so desperate to be absolute and definitive in their modern sports stars. The superlatives get outta hand. No, there were great players before her, and although I'd have her up there, she wouldn't be the greatest female player I've ever seen...

I know when Martina won her first slam, she didon't start RACKING them up until 1982. Meaning winning them left and right, not once and awhile.

Besides turmoil in her personal life defecting, Martina had to deal with a lot more players with superior resumes at the time; Evert, Wade, Goolagong, then Jaeger, Shriver, Mandlikova, & Austin OTTH! :nono :angel: :dodgy: :cover

All of those players had turmoil, so that's not a good example.

Martina def3cted in 1975, won her fi4st slam in 1978, so.....

Evert went through a very public engagement with Connors, divorce with John Lloyd. Jeaner was dealing with a "tennis parent," in her father Roland, the first of the overbearing tennis fathers. Austin had to deal with a debilitating back issue that effectively ended a very successful career.

As far as tougher competition, Jaeger only made 2 slam finals, Shriver only 1. Wade was at end of her career when Martina won her first slam. Mandlikova while arguable was one of the greatest talents, was a head case. Goolagong had limited success after 1977 due to marrying and having children.

 

[Kieran]

RE: 2016 Wimbledon Ladies Final: S. Williams vs. Kerber

The point that's being made is that Martina and Chrissie were contemporaries and rivals. Then in her thirties, Martina had to contend with Fraulein Forehand. Serena has no such rivals in her time, and even now, every major is on her racket, when really there should be some bright new great star. She's facing a draw filled with relative pygmies...

 

[special700]

This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

First off we never heard crap about Margaret Cort until Serena was close behind Graf in slam majors. All along we always heard Graf was GOAT and no one never mentioned that Graf had to match Cort to be GOAT, now all of a sudden Serena has to get to 24 to be considered GOAT. Why is it that the bar always has to be raised when it comes to Serena William? Unfrigging belivable.

 

[Kieran]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

Eh, I heard of Margaret Court before Serena was even born... :huh:

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

I don't think anybody in the right mind would say MC is greather than SW. Nobody insists that Serena should reach 24 or 25 to be considered better than Serena Williams. However, considering the lack of competition and considering Serena's dominance at the ranking charts, it sure looks like Serena will both reach and cross 24.

Whether Serena is indeed the GOATESS is a different story. The total number of GS titles is only one measure, though the most important one at that, in determining whether someone is the GOATESS. Number of weeks at #1 ranking, Number of YE #1 finishes, Number of WTF titles, Number of Premier Mandatory wins, Career win-loss record, Best performance in an year, Match winning streak all play a role too.

Helen Wills Moody did not lose a set from 1927 to 1933 in a streak that lasted 180 matches. She has 19 GS wins and only 5 GS losses (she never played at AO and she often missed other slams too). Of the five GS losses, three were in finals.

She finished 8 years as YE #1.

I am not claiming that HWM is the GOATESS therefore. But, my point is that these things are highly debatable. Six years of playing tennis without losing a set, that is dominance beyond imagination.
Needless to say I did not get the opportunity to live in those times. So, I cannot say much about the competition (not to mention that it was before open era).

Right now, even though Serena has matched Steffi, she is still behind in other measures such as weeks at #1 (by 77 weeks).