The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

[Kieran]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

Just to be clear, the old amateur/professional divide didn't affect women's tennis the way it did men's tennis. Rod Laver missed slams because he turned pro - these weren't really things on offer for the women, so when MC won her majors in the amateur days of the sixties, she still beat the best players in the world,

But GSM is right, we can only look at players in the context of their time, and what they achieve in the time they have. Little Mo Connolly won the Grand Slam in 1954 (I think), fell off a horse and never played again. There were people who saw her who said she was the greatest. She certainly was, at that time. I think nowadays we want everything we have now to be the best, better than everything ever before, and sometimes it's worthwhile chilling and getting to look closer at the careers of extraordinary people like Navratilova, Court, Heelen Wills Moody, etc...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

I think even though there was not an Amateur/Professional divide, in those times the defending champion needed to play just one match against the challengers in grand slams. That would of course make things lot simpler for the defending champion. That is one caveat.

However, to imagine that HWM not only did not lose a match, but did not even lose a set
from 1927 to 1933, in a streak that lasted 180 matches is mind-boggling to me. That must be one hell of a dominance :clap (or one hell of a weak era :devil). I have no clue what it is.

 

[Kieran]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

Are you sure about the Champ only defending the title in the final? I thought the challenge round was abolished earlier. In Wiki, just looking at the 1926 Wimbledon results, the defending champ was Suzanne Lenglen, but she played from the start in 1926, which was won by Kitty Godfrey, who was in the main draw the following year...

EDIT: I haven't checked the other majors, because a) I'm lazy, and b) it's getting late and I wanna watch an episode of Ray Donovan then read a book before sleep...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

I too have to check to figure out exactly when the challenger system was abolished. I know they had it like that in olden days and some point changed it to normal system. I don't know exactly when the change happened.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

I looked it up. The system of defending champion having to play just one match ended in 1922 (at least in Wimbledon). HWM's first slam was won in 1923. So, all the slam wins by HWM are by legitimate completion going through all rounds. Now, it makes her achievements even more mind boggling. She had 19 slams in singles, 9 in doubles and 3 in mixed doubles.

But, the most mind boggling aspect of her career is certainly going through six years without losing a set. :eyepop

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: This is my beef with these so call tennis folks

HWM participated in only 24 slams and won 19 of them. That is 79.16% of slams in which she participated are won by her.

In those days, people were not trying to rack up the slam count and so played selectively. There were 64 slams held from the first slam in which HWM participated to the last slam in which she participated. If HWM has participated in all of them, and if we use the above 79.16% track record, then it amounts winning 50 Grand Slams (this is not an unreasonable projection considering her six year record of not losing a set). Now, where is 50 and where is 22 and 24?

Considering that open era and before that is not of a big deal for women's tennis and considering that she played after the challenger system was abolished, a serious case can be made that HWM is the GOATESS.

p.s. HWM apparently had an appendix operation in 1926. She informed the tournament organizers of Wimbledon that she cannot participate that year, but did so only one week before the tourney began. The tournament organizers refused to remove her name from the entry list and HWM was considered to have lost her first round match for official purposes, even though she did not even play in it. That was one of her five losses. The other one was French open during which she developed appendix and lost in the second round. All other three losses were in finals.

 

[Calvy]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Eh, I heard of Margaret Court before Serena was even born... :huh:

Exactly! I've known who Court was since I first started playing tennis. Court was the superior player to Billie Jean, but, BLK got more press and recognition due to her fight for equality in sports for women and girls, and rightfully so.

But, Court's record is staggering, especially when you consider she left the tour to start a family and then returned and picked up where she left off.

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Are you sure about the Champ only defending the title in the final? I thought the challenge round was abolished earlier. In Wiki, just looking at the 1926 Wimbledon results, the defending champ was Suzanne Lenglen, but she played from the start in 1926, which was won by Kitty Godfrey, who was in the main draw the following year...

EDIT: I haven't checked the other majors, because a) I'm lazy, and b) it's getting late and I wanna watch an episode of Ray Donovan then read a book before sleep...

Hey, who is your favorite character on Ray Donovan,? Jon Voight is amazing ..he is real hoot !, I like Ray too .

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Eh, I heard of Margaret Court before Serena was even born... :huh:

Exactly! I've known who Court was since I first started playing tennis. Court was the superior player to Billie Jean, but, BLK got more press and recognition due to her fight for equality in sports for women and girls, and rightfully so.

But, Court's record is staggering, especially when you consider she left the tour to start a family and then returned and picked up where she left off.

I don't think BJK was ever a contender for GOATESS. I have not seen anybody trying to argue that. She certainly had lot of contributions off the court in developing women's tennis. She deserves to be recognized for that and is being recognized.

Margaret Court won 24 slams but played in 47 leading to winning 51.06% of the slams she played in.
On the other hand, Helen Wills Moody won 19 slams but played in 24 leading to winning 79.16% of the slams she played in. As I mentioned already, if HWM bothered to play in all the 64 slams (which is the duration between her first and last slams), her projected number of GS titles is 50.

Further, about half of MC's titles were from AO. In those days, many players did not participate at AO and hence it was easy to win AO. The only reason why MC played in AO while others were not playing is that she is from Australia and so does not have to travel to play in it. In view of this I think, Serena, Steffi, Chrissy and Martina (not to mention Helen) are all superior to Margaret Court in the GOATESS scale.

So, I think HWM probably has greater claim to GOATESS than MC.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Helen Wills Moody played 129 GS matches and won 126 of them (she defaulted twice 1926 RG 2nd round and 1926 Wimby first round due to appendicitis). All three of her losses came in finals.
Her win loss percentage in GS matches is 97.67%. Nobody from any era can touch that. I was trying to find out her overall win-loss record, but could not (so far).

If you want some qualitative insight in to HWM read this piece published when she was inducted into HOF . The more I think about her, the more I think she is THE GOATESS.

 

[Kieran]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Eh, I heard of Margaret Court before Serena was even born... :huh:

Exactly! I've known who Court was since I first started playing tennis. Court was the superior player to Billie Jean, but, BLK got more press and recognition due to her fight for equality in sports for women and girls, and rightfully so.

But, Court's record is staggering, especially when you consider she left the tour to start a family and then returned and picked up where she left off.

Exactly. Court never really gets the kudos she deserved, she was a fierce and great player, she won the Grand Slam in 1970, and she was clearly the greatest player of that era, and definite contender for GOATESS.

Factor in also that as GSM said, players didn't add up their slams then as proof of greatness. That's only a recent thing. Court won the thing that was most coveted of all, the calendar year slam...

 

[Kieran]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

That's incredible about Helen Wills Moody, GSM. You got me reading about her too. A true pioneer and legend, her record will never be matched. She was a star in the first glamorous era of tennis, mixing with film stars and becoming a leader in fashion. She even faced the great Suzanne Lenglen, but after the match the French woman had beaten her but avoided playing her again by entering the professional wilderness for women. Moody was only 20 at the time, I think, and went on a tear.

Okay, people might say it was only dainty pitty-patty genteel stuff, but tennis in the seventies and eighties was only gentle stuff compared to now. And tennis now is in slow motion compared to the juggernaut that's coming.

A-P, I love Jon Voight in that show, he's incredible, but I hate him too! :lolz:

 

[Calvy]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Eh, I heard of Margaret Court before Serena was even born... :huh:

Exactly! I've known who Court was since I first started playing tennis. Court was the superior player to Billie Jean, but, BLK got more press and recognition due to her fight for equality in sports for women and girls, and rightfully so.

But, Court's record is staggering, especially when you consider she left the tour to start a family and then returned and picked up where she left off.

I don't think BJK was ever a contender for GOATESS. I have not seen anybody trying to argue that. She certainly had lot of contributions off the court in developing women's tennis. She deserves to be recognized for that and is being recognized.

Margaret Court won 24 slams but played in 47 leading to winning 51.06% of the slams she played in.
On the other hand, Helen Wills Moody won 19 slams but played in 24 leading to winning 79.16% of the slams she played in. As I mentioned already, if HWM bothered to play in all the 64 slams (which is the duration between her first and last slams), her projected number of GS titles is 50.

Further, about half of MC's titles were from AO. In those days, many players did not participate at AO and hence it was easy to win AO. The only reason why MC played in AO while others were not playing is that she is from Australia and so does not have to travel to play in it. In view of this I think, Serena, Steffi, Chrissy and Martina (not to mention Helen) are all superior to Margaret Court in the GOATESS scale.

So, I think HWM probably has greater claim to GOATESS than MC.

Not necessarily, Court won at least three slams in a year four different times, which no other player has accomplished, and Court is only one of three women to complete the calender slam.

Also, as I mentioned before, she left the tour, started a family and she returned and racked up slams, in the day of King, Wade, Evert and Goolagong.

I'm not saying she is the GOAT, my personal choice actually is Evert, but, using the Aussie Open lack of stars doesn't negate the fact she dominated most of the stars of that generation.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Exactly! I've known who Court was since I first started playing tennis. Court was the superior player to Billie Jean, but, BLK got more press and recognition due to her fight for equality in sports for women and girls, and rightfully so.

But, Court's record is staggering, especially when you consider she left the tour to start a family and then returned and picked up where she left off.

I don't think BJK was ever a contender for GOATESS. I have not seen anybody trying to argue that. She certainly had lot of contributions off the court in developing women's tennis. She deserves to be recognized for that and is being recognized.

Margaret Court won 24 slams but played in 47 leading to winning 51.06% of the slams she played in.
On the other hand, Helen Wills Moody won 19 slams but played in 24 leading to winning 79.16% of the slams she played in. As I mentioned already, if HWM bothered to play in all the 64 slams (which is the duration between her first and last slams), her projected number of GS titles is 50.

Further, about half of MC's titles were from AO. In those days, many players did not participate at AO and hence it was easy to win AO. The only reason why MC played in AO while others were not playing is that she is from Australia and so does not have to travel to play in it. In view of this I think, Serena, Steffi, Chrissy and Martina (not to mention Helen) are all superior to Margaret Court in the GOATESS scale.

So, I think HWM probably has greater claim to GOATESS than MC.

Not necessarily, Court won at least three slams in a year four different times, which no other player has accomplished, and Court is only one of three women to complete the calender slam.

Not a single slam win of HWM is at Australian Open as she never played there (as do most good players at that time) and so all her GS wins have greater merit. For MC, 11 of her 24 wins are from AO and so her count of 24 has much less meaning than HWM's count of 19. Also, there is no way she could complete a calendar gram slam (as it was not the main objective then) as she did not ever play at AO. However, HWM won all the other three slams two different times (which should be considered the equivalent of calendar grand slam for her, as she did not lose at AO and simply did not play).

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Of the 22 GS titles won by Steffi, 11 were before the incident and 11 were after the incident. For the uninitiated, the incident refers to the stabbing of Monica by a German fan of Steffi. At the time of Stabbing Monica was #1 in rankings and has already won 9 grand slams even though she was still a teenager.

I know Steffi was not involved in the stabbing directly or indirectly. I am not blaming Steffi in any way for the incident.

However, considering Monica's age, her achievements by that time, it is not a stretch to say that Steffi's slam count would have been considerably smaller if not for the incident. After, the incident Monica did not play in the next 10 slams due to treatment and recovery of strength and form. Of those 10 slams, Steffi won six of them.

When Monica returned, in the very first slam she reached the final and in the next she won.

Moreover, the H2H between them was 6-4 in Graf's favor before the incident and 4-1 after the incident (for a final figure of 10-5 which is actually misleading).

In view of all these things Serena has to be definitely considered better than Steffi on the GOATESS scale.

I would also put Serena above Margaret Court (as half of her slams come from AO that many players did not bother to play).

However, I am tilting towards Helen Wills Moody for the GOATESS award even though she only has 19 GS. This is because she just rarely loses. She has only lost 3 times in her whole career in grand slam matches. For perspective, Serena lost that many matches in grand slams in just the last 365 days. As I mentioned before from 1927-1933 she went through a streak of not losing a set (not to mention matches) and that streak was 180 matches long. If only she had bothered to play in all grand slams between her first and last appearances, based on her win-loss ration, her projected number of grand slam titles is a whooping FIFTY. It is a travesty that the OP did not even bother to include HWM by name in the poll.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Navratilova's record & longevity, she's got t/b in the mix! She won 6 in a row; '83 Wimbl. to '84 USO finally losing at AO SF when at the end of the season! She also won 59 majors in singles, dubs, & MxDubs, 167 singles titles & 177 Dubs (both a rec. men or women) taking last USO w/ Bryan Bro fast approaching 50 y.o. in '06! She took on all comers from Evert, Goolagong, Court, Wade, & King to Graf, Seles, Shriver, Jaeger, & Austin; & many in btwn! :ras:

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I always wonder what people talk about when they discuss weak competition. If you take Serena and compare her game to the game of all of the players that have come and gone during her career, she is still going to come out on top over everybody I would say 95% of the time. If Serena played at 100% of her capability every time she stepped out on the court and so did all of her competition, she is still going to take it because her game is better. That isn't weak completion that is someone who has evolved her game to withstand different variables that might come her way, so she can be the best and be the winner.

I'm not going to prescribe to some GOAT idea because I feel they all are GOATs in their various ways in regard to the sport. The thing I appreciate most about Serena is her competitive nature. She is a pure athlete through and through loves to win and hates to lose. She is very vocal about this probably more so than any athlete I have ever encountered. I know a lot of people hate what they perceive as ego and attitude from Serena, but that is what makes her special. She wants it and doesn't give a flying eff what people think about how she goes about things. She wants that trophy and hell hath no fury if you get in her way or have something to say about it.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Serena might hate to lose (actually, most hate to lose ). But, HWM actually rarely loses. HWM has lost only a total of 3 times in GS matches in her whole career. Moreover, all these three losses are in the finals. To put it in perspective, Serena has lost three times in just the last year (2015-USO through 2016-W). HWM was a trail blazer coming before MC, MN, CE and all others. So, she was not catching up to somebody's record and setting new standards. Before HWM, the record was 8 by Suzane Langlen. HWM's count was 19. More than twice the previous record.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Navratilova's record & longevity, she's got t/b in the mix! She won 6 in a row; '83 Wimbl. to '84 USO finally losing at AO SF when at the end of the season! She also won 59 majors in singles, dubs, & MxDubs, 167 singles titles & 177 Dubs (both a rec. men or women) taking last USO w/ Bryan Bro fast approaching 50 y.o. in '06! She took on all comers from Evert, Goolagong, Court, Wade, & King to Graf, Seles, Shriver, Jaeger, & Austin; & many in btwn! :ras:

This is kind of already discussed earlier in the thread. While discussing GOATESS, we should throw away all the doubles and mixed doubles titles and results (unless we have two players whose records in singles are identical or very close0. This is because how many doubles titles you win depends also on who is your partner.

Clearly Martina's 18 count has been surpassed by Steffi and Serena (not to mention that Martina could not catch up to the 24 by MC or even the 19 by HWM which were set before Martina's time). I don't put too much stock in the 167 singles titles as in olden days they were playing so many itsy bitsy tourneys and so their title numbers were way too high. Jimmy has 108 titles in singles (in Men), but nobody thinks he is GOAT because of that. It is the same logic here.

Of course, Martina is an elite player and a contender, but I am not sure she is THE GOATESS.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Navratilova's record & longevity, she's got t/b in the mix! She won 6 in a row; '83 Wimbl. to '84 USO finally losing at AO SF when at the end of the season! She also won 59 majors in singles, dubs, & MxDubs, 167 singles titles & 177 Dubs (both a rec. men or women) taking last USO w/ Bryan Bro fast approaching 50 y.o. in '06! She took on all comers from Evert, Goolagong, Court, Wade, & King to Graf, Seles, Shriver, Jaeger, & Austin; & many in btwn! :ras:

This is kind of already discussed earlier in the thread. While discussing GOATESS, we should throw away all the doubles and mixed doubles titles and results (unless we have two players whose records in singles are identical or very close0. This is because how many doubles titles you win depends also on who is your partner.

Clearly Martina's 18 count has been surpassed by Steffi and Serena (not to mention that Martina could not catch up to the 24 by MC or even the 19 by HWM which were set before Martina's time). I don't put too much stock in the 167 singles titles as in olden days they were playing so many itsy bitsy tourneys and so their title numbers were way too high. Jimmy has 108 titles in singles (in Men), but nobody thinks he is GOAT because of that. It is the same logic here.

Of course, Martina is an elite player and a contender, but I am not sure she is THE GOATESS.

If it's so easy to win so many tournaments, why aren't there more than 2 or 3 players with those kinds of #'s? :nono