The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Navratilova's record & longevity, she's got t/b in the mix! She won 6 in a row; '83 Wimbl. to '84 USO finally losing at AO SF when at the end of the season! She also won 59 majors in singles, dubs, & MxDubs, 167 singles titles & 177 Dubs (both a rec. men or women) taking last USO w/ Bryan Bro fast approaching 50 y.o. in '06! She took on all comers from Evert, Goolagong, Court, Wade, & King to Graf, Seles, Shriver, Jaeger, & Austin; & many in btwn! :ras:

This is kind of already discussed earlier in the thread. While discussing GOATESS, we should throw away all the doubles and mixed doubles titles and results (unless we have two players whose records in singles are identical or very close0. This is because how many doubles titles you win depends also on who is your partner.

Clearly Martina's 18 count has been surpassed by Steffi and Serena (not to mention that Martina could not catch up to the 24 by MC or even the 19 by HWM which were set before Martina's time). I don't put too much stock in the 167 singles titles as in olden days they were playing so many itsy bitsy tourneys and so their title numbers were way too high. Jimmy has 108 titles in singles (in Men), but nobody thinks he is GOAT because of that. It is the same logic here.

Of course, Martina is an elite player and a contender, but I am not sure she is THE GOATESS.

If it's so easy to win so many tournaments, why aren't there more than 2 or 3 players with those kinds of numbers? :nono

The issue is what is considered important by the players. It varies from time to time. If say Roger has considered it important to win lot of titles, he sure could have played lot of 250 events over the years and reached Connor's count. The reason Roger did not reach it is not because it is unreachable but because it is unvaluable for him as well as many other modern players. They just want more wins in quality tourneys.

This is what makes GOATESS argument tricky. In different eras different aspects might have been considered valuable. Whatever is considered invaluable is not pursued. So, simply taking the statistics and comparing players of different era is faulty.

 

[special700]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I always wonder what people talk about when they discuss weak competition. If you take Serena and compare her game to the game of all of the players that have come and gone during her career, she is still going to come out on top over everybody I would say 95% of the time. If Serena played at 100% of her capability every time she stepped out on the court and so did all of her competition, she is still going to take it because her game is better. That isn't weak completion that is someone who has evolved her game to withstand different variables that might come her way, so she can be the best and be the winner.

I'm not going to prescribe to some GOAT idea because I feel they all are GOATs in their various ways in regard to the sport. The thing I appreciate most about Serena is her competitive nature. She is a pure athlete through and through loves to win and hates to lose. She is very vocal about this probably more so than any athlete I have ever encountered. I know a lot of people hate what they perceive as ego and attitude from Serena, but that is what makes her special. She wants it and doesn't give a flying eff what people think about how she goes about things. She wants that trophy and hell hath no fury if you get in her way or have something to say about it.

That first paragraph should just shut this thread down. You have said it all and more. Here's a prime example. The AO final against Kerber and the Wimbledon final against said opponent..." That isn't weak completion that is someone who has evolved her game to withstand different variables that might come her way, so she can be the best and be the winner".

Well said SMG, well said.

 

[special700]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Serena might hate to lose (actually, most hate to lose ). But, HWM actually rarely loses. HWM has lost only a total of 3 times in GS matches in her whole career. Moreover, all these three losses are in the finals. To put it in perspective, Serena has lost three times in just the last year (2015-USO through 2016-W). HWM was a trail blazer coming before MC, MN, CE and all others. So, she was not catching up to somebody's record and setting new standards. Before HWM, the record was 8 by Suzane Langlen. HWM's count was 19. More than twice the previous record.

AND....

 

[special700]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Serena might hate to lose (actually, most hate to lose ). But, HWM actually rarely loses. HWM has lost only a total of 3 times in GS matches in her whole career. Moreover, all these three losses are in the finals. To put it in perspective, Serena has lost three times in just the last year (2015-USO through 2016-W). HWM was a trail blazer coming before MC, MN, CE and all others. So, she was not catching up to somebody's record and setting new standards. Before HWM, the record was 8 by Suzane Langlen. HWM's count was 19. More than twice the previous record.

AND....You just can't give Serena her due. If Serena won 30 majors you find something to discredit it. I have no idea what this woman has done to you.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Serena might hate to lose (actually, most hate to lose ). But, HWM actually rarely loses. HWM has lost only a total of 3 times in GS matches in her whole career. Moreover, all these three losses are in the finals. To put it in perspective, Serena has lost three times in just the last year (2015-USO through 2016-W). HWM was a trail blazer coming before MC, MN, CE and all others. So, she was not catching up to somebody's record and setting new standards. Before HWM, the record was 8 by Suzane Langlen. HWM's count was 19. More than twice the previous record.

AND....You just can't give Serena her due. If Serena won 30 majors you find something to discredit it. I have no idea what this woman has done to you.

I have nothing against Serena and give her due credit. In fact, if you look at the first post on this page, I say that Serena has to be considered better than Graf right now without Serena needing to do anything else. Similarly, I have also said that Serena should be considered better than Court right now without Serena having to do anything more.

But, if you look at HWM's career record, it is totally amazing. As people living in the current era, we get carried away by what is happening now and we think that is the best out there. But, if you objectively think of HWM's career record you will see as to why her career stats are lot better and why she deserves to be considered the GOATESS.

 

[Rex]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Nav'........

 

[britbox]

Some might not class either of these two as the greatest - if not why not? Others in the top tier would include Margaret Court, Martina Navratoliva, Chris Evert. Anyone else?

 

[Moxie]

 

[Moxie]

I hate to be mealy-mouthed about it, but this is why there is no GOAT. I feel that we can leave Margaret Court out, and focus on the Open Era, as the videos suggest, but from there, it's reasonable to posit Steffi and Serena as the top of the pile. But they are great for different reasons, and I think it's fair to just stop, and call them co-GOATS. Even if Serena gets past Graf in the Majors count. Graf was a sublime tennis player, a great athlete and dominant in many ways. Serena is one of the greatest US athletes of all time, an amazing competitor, and has longevity on her side. If Steffi was a cat, Serena was a bull. (Sound familiar?) Eventually, it's too hard to compare them and come out with one answer, as the videos demonstrate.

Margaret Court gets big kudos for an earlier era, and I also think Martina does, for her singles career, and her longevity. It mostly goes down from them, I think.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Bumping this thread up.

 

[El Dude]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I haven't done much research on this, certainly far less then on the men, but my eye-ball test says:

1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Billie Jean King

After the top seven, it is hard to say - with Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, and others all in the mix for the top 10.

I think the big gap, though, is between #6 and #7. The top 6 are--like Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic--the "herd of GOATs."

 

[tossip]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Venus could be top five if it were not for her sister..all those finals

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Venus could be top five if it were not for her sister..all those finals

You can say that about any top player; Evert had Navratilova, Graf had Seles, and so on! Each would have #'s out of sight if not for 1 other player; same for the men obviously! uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: :cover

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I haven't done much research on this, certainly far less then on the men, but my eye-ball test says:

1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Billie Jean King

After the top seven, it is hard to say - with Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, and others all in the mix for the top 10.

I think the big gap, though, is between #6 and #7. The top 6 are--like Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic--the "herd of GOATs."

You are underrating HWM too much. HWM rarely loses. No one else even comes close to that kind of statistical performance. See my earlier posts on this thread for my argument as to why is she is THE GOATESS.

 

[kskate2]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I haven't done much research on this, certainly far less then on the men, but my eye-ball test says:

1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Billie Jean King

After the top seven, it is hard to say - with Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, and others all in the mix for the top 10.

I think the big gap, though, is between #6 and #7. The top 6 are--like Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic--the "herd of GOATs."

You are underrating HWM too much. HWM rarely loses. No one else even comes close to that kind of statistical performance. See my earlier posts on this thread for my argument as to why is she is THE GOATESS.

That's your opinion GSM. He said as far as his eyeball can see. That's his list. You have your list and other posters have theirs.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I haven't done much research on this, certainly far less then on the men, but my eye-ball test says:

1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Billie Jean King

After the top seven, it is hard to say - with Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, and others all in the mix for the top 10.

I think the big gap, though, is between #6 and #7. The top 6 are--like Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic--the "herd of GOATs."

You are underrating HWM too much. HWM rarely loses. No one else even comes close to that kind of statistical performance. See my earlier posts on this thread for my argument as to why is she is THE GOATESS.

That's your opinion GSM. He said as far as his eyeball can see. That's his list. You have your list and other posters have theirs.

I agree that everybody is entitled to their opinion. I would have left it if it was somebody else saying. However, Dude being into stat I am positive that once he looks into the stats of HWM, there is no way that he will choose someone else as Goatess.

The only reason that not many people talk about her is because most who have seen her playing must have died by now. Further, we generally have an era bias; people generally feel that in old time, the game was not as difficult as it is now. Even if that statement is true, it must have been easy for all other players of that era as well, but how come one alone ended up winning everything out there.

I hope, he is using the term "eye ball test" metaphorically and is not literally restricting to players that he has personally seen playing. Needless to say, I myself also have not seen her playing in her times. There are not much video clips available either. I am just going by statistical performance and old magazine articles about her.

 

[tossip]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Serena is the best considering what she went through to get to these heights in sports,she overcame vicious racism from every front..from unfavorable draws,biased linespeople and umpires insults from tennis former players present players and tennis fans who didnt want her and her sister to succeed...to me Serena is the best because she succeeded against all odds...testament to her mental strength and family support.

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Not really fair not to rank Seles in the top ten of all time..I would like to see what her numbers were pre stabbing incident..if those numbers were comparable or better than Graf's numbers at that time..then she should be recognized higher....that idiotic German fan really cost her historical greatness..she should find someone to castrate that bastard, IMO

 

[the AntiPusher]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I haven't done much research on this, certainly far less then on the men, but my eye-ball test says:

1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Billie Jean King

After the top seven, it is hard to say - with Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, and others all in the mix for the top 10.

I think the big gap, though, is between #6 and #7. The top 6 are--like Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic--the "herd of GOATs."

I would rank Venus higher ...what Richard Williams accomplished by raising two # 1s players from Compton, California is by far the greatest sports achievement in the history of sports..that's the equivalent of raising two financial CEOs from Englewood , Illinois

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Giving it a bump. Don't know what happened to rest of this thread. This thread had discussions running to at least six pages.
I put out a lot of arguments claiming that a) Serena is the GOATESS of open era and b) Helen Wills Moody is the GOATESS if we
don't restrict to open era. All those are not to be found.