The Grass is always Greener - 2021

Moxie

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I just double checked. Roger has never retired in the middle of a match in his entire career that spans more than 1500 matches. I believe he considers it a sportsmanship thing. If you are fit enough to enter a match, you should at least try to complete the match and give the opponent a sense of satisfaction of defeat over yourself even if you are injured. He does this not only against important players, but even against no name players.

I am not saying that this rule should be literally followed by everybody in every circumstance. But one should try to do so except in extreme circumstances. If it is obvious that you are going to hurt yourself, you should retire. On the other hand, I have seen players (don't want to mention names) retiring when the score is 2-5 in the final set and things like that. Even if you are badly injured (actually these people were not), I am sure you can stand in the court for 3 more minutes and let the opponent serve four aces and give him the satisfaction of a completed victory.

Roger might have been concerned about his ability to complete the next match @RG also. It is possible that this may have played a role in his withdrawal from the tournament. I am not saying this is the case; just that it is possible.
Man, you have been very busy trying to justify Roger's withdrawal from RG. If Rogelio withdrew from the tournament because he was protecting his record of never retiring during a match, that's lame. But that isn't why he did it. It was patently obvious why he did it. The very fact that he only entered Geneva and RG made it fairly obvious that he wasn't really expecting to win at RG, but he needed to play some tennis. He could have given the match v. Berrettini a go, but he didn't want to risk it, due to what he has/had at stake on grass.

If not entering a tournament is morally superior to quitting it in the middle, then so is not playing a match than quitting the match in the middle.
The latter one is even more so, as it is more easily predictable being over a short period of time.
Speaking of poor quality of arguments...
I am all ears. Please explain.

For your information, here are the stats:


# of matches involved in​
# of withdrawals before start.​
# of reitrments during the match​
Ralph
1235​
7​
9​
Roger
1521​
4​
0​
Rafa's withdrawals and retirements were due to injury. Rogelio's withdrawal from RG this year, (and the YEC one in 2014, possibly,) were not due to injury, but due to saving himself for something else. And look at their histories of injury and compare.
In 2014, when he withdrew in the ATP finals against Novak also he did not have any real injuries. He actually came out and announced about an hour before the match saying unfortunately he cannot play as he is not match fit after the draining match with Stan the previous night. Some even bothered to accuse him of saving himself for the Davis Cup that was scheduled to run the following week. Why would DC be more important than ATP finals, even though he has never won DC.

But, I get the real reason for all this drama. If dog bites man, it is not news. If man bites dog, it is. Given that Roger's withdrawals happen once in a blue moon, it becomes a big news and people float lot of conspiracy theories around it.
These are not conspiracy theories. He's being straight-up accused of dissing the tournament...by many, including ex-players and TV commentators who had a big problem with it. I have said, I'm not one that cares that much. But no amount of excuse-making or comparing his withdrawal to those of others is going to change what some think of this particular choice, and I don't just mean partizans on this forum. As to the YEC finals withdrawal, he did cite his back, though ESPN, for example, did wonder in print if it was more about DC. But, hey, he couldn't play the day after the SF with Stan, but was better by the following weekend. Fair enough.
 

Front242

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^ You think a sore back can't heal in a week ? Try 1 day in many cases. Depends on the extent, eg spasms, sprain/sprain, just muscular pain.
 

Moxie

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^ You think a sore back can't heal in a week ? Try 1 day in many cases. Depends on the extent, eg spasms, sprain/sprain, just muscular pain.
I said, "fair enough." I basically said I can see the difference between the day after and 6 days later. I wasn't writing that with sarcasm, if that's how you read it.
 

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I said, "fair enough." I actually said I can see the difference between the day after and 6 days later.
Good, 'cos a week is loads :D I read it as sarcasm that he was fine a week later so apologies if I'm misinterpreted.
 

Moxie

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Good, 'cos a week is loads :D I read it as sarcasm that he was fine a week later so apologies if I'm misinterpreted.
It's OK. Everyone reads anything I say about Roger or Novak as sarcasm, and NOT as sincere. Which kind of bums me out, but I'm used to it. Everyone is SO convinced that my sole motivation is to buff up Rafa. I actually DO watch tennis, and I have opinions that can be nuanced. Even occasionally fair. :) Anyway, thanks for apologizing. :smooch:

Actually, if I remember correctly, Roger's back did seem a bit tight, still, in the Friday tie, but loosened up on him for the rest of the weekend. GSM was asking above why Roger would save himself for DC over another YEC final win, but it's clear that DC was important to him, for Switzerland. Not saying he chose one over the other, just saying was it was also important. That last weekend of the YEC was full of controversy and drama. The Stan/Roger SF was hard-fought and a bit bitter. Roger withdrawing from the final was dramatic and unprecedented in the history of the YEC's. Criticisms and arguments swirled, including in mainstream sports press. But it doesn't take a genius to believe that, at then 33, Roger may not have been match-fit on the day after that semi, which I believe was played late on Sat. Would he have tried to play if he didn't have DC the next weekend? Who knows? Had he tried to play, would it just have been a sad spectacle ending in retirement? Who knows? But he's an elite athlete, and he knows his body, so, there's that.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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The very fact that he only entered Geneva and RG made it fairly obvious that he wasn't really expecting to win at RG, but he needed to play some tennis.

What a stupid comment! Of course Roger was not expecting to win RG. If only players who expect to win RG have to enter RG, they will not have a tournament with 128 people entering in it.
 

GameSetAndMath

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Rogelio's withdrawal from RG this year, (and the YEC one in 2014, possibly,) were not due to injury, but due to saving himself for something else.

The problem is that you people think only actually having an injury is a legitimate reason for withdrawing. That is not the case. If a player can reasonably expect that continuing to play involves serious risk of injury (not some mythological saving yourself for some future event) that is also a legitimate reason for withdrawing.
 

GameSetAndMath

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If Rogelio withdrew from the tournament because he was protecting his record of never retiring during a match, that's lame. But that isn't why he did it.

Again you are being ridiculous. It is not about protecting a stupid record. All I was saying was that he probably felt he could not complete the match and so withdrew. Feeling that you will lose a match is not a legitimate reason for withdrawing. But, feeling that you will not be able to go through it completely without risking serious injury is.

p.s. Why are you messing up a good name :pleading-face:
 

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If he met Roger this year in Wimbledon he would do much better considering all.

No need to worry about it. Both Fed and Berrettini would be seeded in the 5-8 range (as Rafa withdrew) and so they will be in different quarters. So, they cannot meet before SF. The chances that one or both of them does not reach SF is 100%.
 
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Fiero425

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No need to worry about it. Both Fed and Berrettini would be seeded in the 5-8 range (as Rafa withdrew) and so they will be in different quarters. So, they cannot meet before SF. The chances that one or both of them does not reach SF is 100%.

You're really giving a lot of credit to Fed to come close to making a SF! IMO, he'll be lucky to get out of the 1st 2 rounds with the level of comp. out there! You saw how FAA made him look old and weary just a few days ago! Felix does nothing special, but made Fed look "out of his depth" by the 2nd set! I'm not hoping, but I think Roger has a very good chance of WD before the 1st ball if he feels he can't handle 5 sets of grasscourt tennis! It would only be fare to the next available player IMO! :anxious-face-with-sweat:
 

Moxie

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What a stupid comment! Of course Roger was not expecting to win RG. If only players who expect to win RG have to enter RG, they will not have a tournament with 128 people entering in it.
I'm so sorry that you feel you keep needing to defend Roger in this, but it's not a stupid comment. Obviously, most players who enter RG or any Major in this era know that their chances are slim-to-none. Roger, however, is not in that category. He's actually won it! But he signaled that he wasn't taking it seriously when he chose to skip, at the very least, Madrid. Am I wrong? Geneva as a tune-up? The week prior? You can be as obtuse about this as you like, but Roger gave every indication that his clay season was prep for grass. End of story.
The problem is that you people think only actually having an injury is a legitimate reason for withdrawing. That is not the case. If a player can reasonably expect that continuing to play involves serious risk of injury (not some mythological saving yourself for some future event) that is also a legitimate reason for withdrawing.
The notion that he was saving himself for the grass season is not "mythological." See above. At this point, you are the only person who refuses to see it.
Again you are being ridiculous. It is not about protecting a stupid record. All I was saying was that he probably felt he could not complete the match and so withdrew. Feeling that you will lose a match is not a legitimate reason for withdrawing. But, feeling that you will not be able to go through it completely without risking serious injury is.

p.s. Why are you messing up a good name :pleading-face:
I am pulling your chain about his protecting the "never-retiring" record, because you were trying to make a case for it. Who's being ridiculous?

Feeling like he would lose a match is not why he withdrew. Feeling like he would compromise his grass season is why he did. If he were committed to RG, he would have played that match. It's obvious to everyone but you. As I've said, I don't really give a rat's ass, but others do. There has been a large hew and cry that he was arrogant for doing that, and made too little of a Major tournament by his choice. It's not my position, especially, but you can see what other's have said on these forums, and in the press, generally. I'm not "messing up" Federer's "good name," if you like. He's done that all by himself.
 

Moxie

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You're really giving a lot of credit to Fed to come close to making a SF! IMO, he'll be lucky to get out of the 1st 2 rounds with the level of comp. out there! You saw how FAA made him look old and weary just a few days ago! Felix does nothing special
As to bolded above, I disagree. FAA played a very good match against Roger. It wasn't all about Roger, FFS.
 

GameSetAndMath

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Obviously, most players who enter RG or any Major in this era know that their chances are slim-to-none. Roger, however, is not in that category. He's actually won it!

Neither Roger nor me are delusional to think that he can win RG just because he has done so once in the past.
 

Moxie

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I was not referring to his reputation. I am referring to the funny way you are calling him.
After all of that palaver and discourse with you, this is your only question? Do you mean "Rogelio?" Well, you insist on calling Rafa "Ralph," which I take as a dig. The man is normally or easily referred to as his proper names. So if you want to give him an anglo name, to be demeaning, I'll give Roger an hispanic version. Seems fair?
 

GameSetAndMath

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But he signaled that he wasn't taking it seriously when he chose to skip, at the very least, Madrid. Am I wrong? Geneva as a tune-up? The week prior?

What warm-up tournaments a player wants to participate in is their business. Novak is not playing in any grass warm-up tourneys (in singles). Serena often did that as well. Are they disrespecting Wimbledon?

Geneva is not the week before RG. There was a week gap between Geneva and RG.

It was Novak (the winner of RG) who played the week before RG in Belgrade.
 

GameSetAndMath

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After all of that palaver and discourse with you, this is your only question? Do you mean "Rogelio?" Well, you insist on calling Rafa "Ralph," which I take as a dig. The man is normally or easily referred to as his proper names. So if you want to give him an anglo name, to be demeaning, I'll give Roger an hispanic version. Seems fair?

Ralph was not meant to be demeaning, I actually find it cute. (The demeaning one starts with P).
 
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Moxie

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Neither Roger nor me are delusional to think that he can win RG just because he has done so once in the past.
Right. So then, what you and Roger probably thought would happen is that he'd lose, at some reasonable level. Sooner or later. (And no one expected the unbalanced draw, let's just acknowledge that.) But what Rogelio didn't expect was a long, rough match, that he won, but made him not want to continue. I'm sure he expected to lose, more or less honorably, but what happened was, he ended up wanting to keep his powder dry for the grass season, and that's where it got tricky for him. So he was "forced" to withdraw, and that's where the blow-back came from. Makes sense?
 

Moxie

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What warm-up tournaments a player wants to participate in is their business. Novak is not playing in any grass warm-up tourneys (in singles). Serena often did that as well. Are they disrespecting Wimbledon?

Geneva is not the week before RG. There was a week gap between Geneva and RG.

It was Novak (the winner of RG) who played the week before RG in Belgrade.
This is deflection and meaningless. If Roger were taking the clay season seriously, he'd have at least played Madrid. You've been following tennis long enough to know this. Stop being obtuse about this.
 
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