The Fall of Rafael Nadal

ClayDeath

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now Nick says that Agassi can help Rafa.

right. even the gods cant help Rafa. Rafa has to help Rafa.

nothing short of hitting 6-7 hours a day on clay can fix his ground game. and then there is so much work to be done on the fitness front and the physical work in the gym.

he let everything go and absolutely refused to break the free fall.

money is better than ever and the popularity is still soaring but there is no glory on the courts.

nalbandian said it but we said it long ago at Camelot: nalby said it is clay or the exit.

it is clay or nothing.

I might as well say it this way as well: it is fitness and physical work in the gym or nothing. it is this very dynamic and clay or nothing.
 

ClayDeath

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Rafa can make it happen but he has to decide to do it. he just has to live, breathe, eat, sleep, and dream tennis for 9 months on clay.
 

Carol

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he runs the nick bollitieri tennis academy in florida. Agassi was one of his prized students.
nick must be around 80 years old by now.

Agassi is a huge fan of Rafa.

Oh, but something that I'm more concerned is about if Rafa has now others priorities and distractions which make him to be in that deep confusion and lack of focus which is also so important as the game :-(
 

brokenshoelace

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good to see you around general broken.



long time no see.


do you have any answers/solutions for Rafa?

Contrary to most, it's not the forehand/movement that I'm worried about, it's the serve. I think he'll never move as well as he used to but he can still move well, and I think he can rediscover the timing/confidence to go for his ground strokes, but as long as he's serving softballs, he'll have to work extra hard to just hold serve against any decent player. It came to the point where Rafa being up a break means nothing. Case in point the final set against Verdasco or the Fognini match from the US Open. If he can win a few points here and there with his serve, it'll make things so much easier and he'll be able to relax and play with less anxiety.
 

masterclass

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ATP 2013/2015 stats comparison
IaWoxM7.jpg


Of course we don't need to see stats to know that Rafa has declined since 2013.
However, sometimes stats can indicate which areas need improvement.

I think the most telling stats are break points saved and break points converted.
This translates into service games and return games won, which is what wins matches.
You can't win if you can't break, and/or you can't win if you can't hold serve.

If both areas are problematic, then one is in trouble, and that is Nadal in the last close to 2 years.

Given that, do we see any reasons from the stats why he might be holding less often and not breaking serve as much?
Not really.

I think the following apply:

1. Fitness:
A. We can see it with our own eyes how much muscle he has lost and along with stamina.
B. Deciders record:
2013 - 93% (14-1) ;
2014 - 71% (10-4);
2015 - 61% (14-9);
2016 - 50% (2-2)


2. Return: Unfortunately, we don't have ground strokes stats indicating depth on return, but again we see with our own eyes that Rafa is returning short and allowing serving opponents to have an advantage from the start of points.
It's difficult to win if you can't break, and it's difficult to break these days if your returns are pitiful.

3. Explosiveness, and speed afoot is difficult to quantify statistically on the court, and is probably also part of fitness.
But I separate it to emphasize it. Visually, one can see he has lost side to side explosiveness-reaction, especially to the forehand side.
Unfortunately the problem is compounded by his tendency over the years to rely on the forehand out of his backhand corner.
He may not get that explosiveness back, but he can certainly improve his court positioning by working on making his backhand more dependable so he doesn't have to run around it as often, which puts him too far out of position to get those shots that go back to his forehand especially with angle. It's just too much ground to cover these days.

4. Forehand: Inconsistent. He can still play some marvelous shots, but more and more frequently he is spraying shots. His timing is erratic at best.
I think this is a result of him trying to change his game, especially for hard courts, where he feels he must be more aggressive.
He's right about that, but trying to adapt has hurt his timing, especially on clay.
He plays a tremendous topspin stroke when he is at his best. The problem is that hitting the topspin requires more time and one has to stand further back.
If you try to play inside the court, you will spray balls trying to hit too much topspin, because you just don't have time.
Then after playing hard courts, he tries to come back on clay, and his timing is again off.
Many times it seems as if he doesn't know if he should play up or back, and sometimes plays in the middle and that's no good either.
In my opinion, Rafa needs to forget about being aggressive, playing inside the court for awhile and go back to what he did best. Stay back, especially on clay, get his timing and distance on his topspin shots consistent.
I think he can only play inside the court when he has extreme confidence in hitting flatter shots and he is nowhere near the level of confidence he had in the USA in 2013.

5. Serve: Rafa was never dependent on his serve alone, and rarely got high speed numbers except for 2010. But his game overall did protect it.
Now his game cannot protect it, and he is not holding as much, especially in key situations like break points and tiebreakers.
Yes, a stronger 1st serve might help him protect it, but that has never been a issue before the other parts of his game deteriorated. Now the second serve is a problem, but that I believe is down to pure nerves. His double faults in key situations are coming too frequently.

6. Mentality/Confidence: This is a by-product of his fitness and poorer play and of course, losing too many matches he should be winning. If he isn't as fit as he needs to be, he is not as patient, going for winners too early, drop shots, changing direction, tough shots, etc. leading to more errors, less confidence and nervousness.

Last, but certainly not least.

7. Dedication/Motivation:
Without this, he cannot be committed to his fitness and improving his game. If he is content with what he is doing, raking in the money from sponsors on the back of his 14 majors, modesty, charm, and whatever other positive traits he has, then he is not going to get better on the court. It matters not what he says for public consumption and marketing, it matters what he does to get better results. He'll be 30 this year, and has a lot of miles in him as he started early. The window for him to improve is very small. I don't think he can afford another vacation.

But maybe he has already decided to put more time into other things like his new Tennis Academy in Manacor opening in May or June this year, and is just playing out his remaining career. Only he and his close members of his team know this. We will see what's going on.

Respectfully,
masterclass

P.S. Nice to see some familiar names here. Looks like this forum is getting some good traffic. :)
 
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Carol

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I agree what masterclass says about Rafa's serve, it's a domino effect
 

ClayDeath

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ATP 2013/2015 stats comparison
IaWoxM7.jpg


Of course we don't need to see stats to know that Rafa has declined since 2013.
However, sometimes stats can indicate which areas need improvement.

I think the most telling stats are break points saved and break points converted.
This translates into service games and return games won, which is what wins matches.
You can't win if you can't break, and/or you can't win if you can't hold serve.

If both areas are problematic, then one is in trouble, and that is Nadal in the last close to 2 years.

Given that, do we see any reasons from the stats why he might be holding less often and not breaking serve as much?
Not really.

I think the following apply:

1. Fitness:
A. We can see it with our own eyes how much muscle he has lost and along with stamina.
B. Deciders record:
2013 - 93% (14-1) ;
2014 - 71% (10-4);
2015 - 61% (14-9);
2016 - 50% (2-2)


2. Return: Unfortunately, we don't have ground strokes stats indicating depth on return, but again we see with our own eyes that Rafa is returning short and allowing serving opponents to have an advantage from the start of points.
It's difficult to win if you can't break, and it's difficult to break these days if your returns are pitiful.

3. Explosiveness, and speed afoot is difficult to quantify statistically on the court, and is probably also part of fitness.
But I separate it to emphasize it. Visually, one can see he has lost side to side explosiveness-reaction, especially to the forehand side.
Unfortunately the problem is compounded by his tendency over the years to rely on the forehand out of his backhand corner.
He may not get that explosiveness back, but he can certainly improve his court positioning by working on making his backhand more dependable so he doesn't have to run around it as often, which puts him too far out of position to get those shots that go back to his forehand especially with angle. It's just too much ground to cover these days.

4. Forehand: Inconsistent. He can still play some marvelous shots, but more and more frequently he is spraying shots. His timing is erratic at best.
I think this is a result of him trying to change his game, especially for hard courts, where he feels he must be more aggressive.
He's right about that, but trying to adapt has hurt his timing, especially on clay.
He plays a tremendous topspin stroke when he is at his best. The problem is that hitting the topspin requires more time and one has to stand further back.
If you try to play inside the court, you will spray balls trying to hit too much topspin, because you just don't have time.
Then after playing hard courts, he tries to come back on clay, and his timing is again off.
Many times it seems as if he doesn't know if he should play up or back, and sometimes plays in the middle and that's no good either.
In my opinion, Rafa needs to forget about being aggressive, playing inside the court for awhile and go back to what he did best. Stay back, especially on clay, get his timing and distance on his topspin shots consistent.
I think he can only play inside the court when he has extreme confidence in hitting flatter shots and he is nowhere near the level of confidence he had in the USA in 2013.

5. Serve: Rafa was never dependent on his serve alone, and rarely got high speed numbers except for 2010. But his game overall did protect it.
Now his game cannot protect it, and he is not holding as much, especially in key situations like break points and tiebreakers.
Yes, a stronger 1st serve might help him protect it, but that has never been a issue before the other parts of his game deteriorated. Now the second serve is a problem, but that I believe is down to pure nerves. His double faults in key situations are coming too frequently.

6. Mentality/Confidence: This is a by-product of his fitness and poorer play and of course, losing too many matches he should be winning. If he isn't as fit as he needs to be, he is not as patient, going for winners too early, drop shots, changing direction, tough shots, etc. leading to more errors, less confidence and nervousness.

Last, but certainly not least.

7. Dedication/Motivation:
Without this, he cannot be committed to his fitness and improving his game. If he is content with what he is doing, raking in the money from sponsors on the back of his 14 majors, modesty, charm, and whatever other positive traits he has, then he is not going to get better on the court. It matters not what he says for public consumption and marketing, it matters what he does to get better results. He'll be 30 this year, and has a lot of miles in him as he started early. The window for him to improve is very small. I don't think he can afford another vacation.

But maybe he has already decided to put more time into other things like his new Tennis Academy in Manacor opening in May or June this year, and is just playing out his remaining career. Only he and his close members of his team know this. We will see what's going on.

Respectfully,
masterclass

P.S. Nice to see some familiar names here. Looks like this forum is getting some good traffic. :)



great post. folks this is why discuss tennis forum and Camelot are must read forums.


we have the finest minds at these forums. these folks really know their tennis.


general masterclass and general britbox are among the finest posters and the finest tennis minds on this planet.

it doesn't get much better than this. both of them choose to hang their hats here at Discuss Tennis and at Camelot.
 
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ClayDeath

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nobody can help Rafa. it is too late now anyway. the mountain he has to climb even on clay gets steeper and steeper with each passing day.

only rafa can help rafa. he has to put in the hard yards which he has refused to do for the last 4 years.

he has let everything go. there is no way to come back from this level to compete against the best.

inactivity killed his game. he has been injured 5 out of the last 7 years so there was too much inactivity there.

and now there is inactivity because he is not putting in the hard yards and but also because he is also losing early at the bigger events.

his coach was talking about just being able to beat andy and Federer the other day. really? now you have to worry about just being able to beat Federer who is 50 years old.
 

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How surprised would you be to hear the announcement that he's retiring?
 

Moxie

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He's not retiring now. He's going to keep looking to get back. He's 29. And he's got the example of a rough year for Roger that he recovered from. He's going to play in the Olympics. If this year doesn't show him anything encouraging, then maybe next year he'll begin to question motivation, but not now. Jeepers...ambulance chasers.
 

ClayDeath

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How surprised would you be to hear the announcement that he's retiring?

his coach said that Rafa will retire if he drops into top 20 or top 30.


well they wont have to wait too long for that because I don't see Rafa taking a single event in 2016.

he simply let it all go. now there is very little chance that he can make it back. the mountain is simply too steep to climb.


like I said before, where the hell do you begin if you are him. every single area of his game is affected. and his fitness is a joke at this point.

some of his blind worshippers are not getting this obviously. rafa has no game and no fitness to compete with even the low level players, let alone the top players.


he cant even win mickey mouse 250 level clay events. the decline continues and the decline was massive to begin with.

I would use this year as a foundation to make little bit of difference on clay in 2017 and then sail into the sunset.

he can win his 10th RG but the sacrifice needed to make that happen is beyond ridiculous at this point.


he will have to give up everything and live on clay. he will have to bring in a fitness expert. one that is an expert on tennis fitness.

he will have to do significant amount of physical work in the gym. he will have to start training 6-7 hours a day on clay.



again this is not rocket science. we knew at Camelot that this was going to happen years ago. he never bothered to improve. there was no such thing as continuous improvement for him and his camp. he dominated the planet anyway and it was good enough. he had a winning record against all of the top 30 players.

he took home 14 majors. he won slams on all surfaces. he would dominate the red clay for a decade.
 
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masterclass

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his coach said that Rafa will retire if he drops into top 20 or top 30.


well they wont have to wait too long for that because I don't see Rafa taking a single event in 2016.

he simply let it all go. now there is very little chance that he can make it back. the mountain is simply too steep to climb.


like I said before, where the hell do you begin if you are him. every single area of his game is affected. and his fitness is a joke at this point.

some of his blind worshippers are not getting this obviously. rafa has no game and no fitness to compete with even the low level players, let alone the top players.


he cant even win mickey mouse 250 level clay events. the decline continues and the decline was massive to begin with.

I would use this year as a foundation to make little bit of difference on clay in 2017 and then sail into the sunset.

he can win his 10th RG but the sacrifice needed to make that happen is beyond ridiculous at this point.


he will have to give up everything and live on clay. he will have to bring in a fitness expert. one that is an expert on tennis fitness.

he will have to do significant amount of physical work in the gym. he will have to start training 6-7 hours a day on clay.



again this is not rocket science. we knew at Camelot that this was going to happen years ago. he never bothered to improve. there was no such thing as continuous improvement for him and his camp. he dominated the planet anyway and it was good enough. he had a winning record against all of the top 30 players.

he took home 14 majors. he won slams on all surfaces. he would dominate the red clay for a decade.


General, a fitness coach expert is definitely needed. Nadal and his team need to look no farther than Gebhard Phil-Gritsch, Thomas Muster's old fitness coach who was hired by Djokovic back in 2009.
We said it years ago, Nadal needed to steal him away from Novak, no matter the cost. Well, he didn't.
And now we see the cost. Novak Djokovic is the fittest man on the planet, and Nadal can't last 3 sets in 250 and 500 competition.

So I'll say it again, Nadal needs to use some of that 45 million he gets every year from his sponsors and get Gebhard, or someone his equal, even if he has to pay 2-3 million a year. It's his only chance.

Everyone saw today what we have been saying. He got tired in the end again; he was hitting returns between the net and service line and his forehands either had no sting or were sailing out.
Cuevas with a one handed backhand was the stronger.player in the decider, and Rafa is now 2-3 this year in deciders so far.
As mentioned in my earlier post, In 2013, Rafa was 14-1, 93% in deciders. I believe around 71% in his career before 2014.
How far has he fallen? You have it right there. He needs a top notch fitness coach at all costs to survive.

But this will happen only if he wants it badly enough. If he is content to fade away, and go teach at his Academy, play golf, poker, etc. then forget everything I've said.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 
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O.k. Rafa lost two semifinals in a row, which is for his rank of player step back .. however for me it is still early to write him off totally. I agree that he will not win many more tournaments, but still have at least one strong performance ahead .. i still believe that he can win something big (Rolland Garros this year?) he will be extra motivated (these two losses, lot of people writing him off and calls for resuming his career) .. I was never big Nadal fan, but now I think that he still can show up in a big way.
 
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britbox

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@masterclass - I liked your original post a few back... I think the issues are multidimensional and you covered it well. A fitness coach may help but I think there are a number of reasons and that alone won't be enough. Some of these players have been to the well so many times, you have to wonder what keeps the desire and hunger going. Rafa has lost the mental edge he had also IMO and it shouldn't be understated. I remember Edberg retiring at 30, and he said physically he could have carried on competing but he'd lost the mental edge.
 

masterclass

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@masterclass - I liked your original post a few back... I think the issues are multidimensional and you covered it well. A fitness coach may help but I think there are a number of reasons and that alone won't be enough. Some of these players have been to the well so many times, you have to wonder what keeps the desire and hunger going. Rafa has lost the mental edge he had also IMO and it shouldn't be understated. I remember Edberg retiring at 30, and he said physically he could have carried on competing but he'd lost the mental edge.

I don't disagree britbox. Please don't misunderstand, certainly it is not the only component.
As I mentioned in the first post ("Last, but certainly not least") without sufficient dedication/motivation, one has little. So I think it starts with that, much like any player.
But given that there is sufficient dedication/motivation, then the next important component for Rafa and his topspin game is fitness; it starts with that, and then the rest of the other things follow.
I'm not sure his level of dedication/motivation is enough, even if his words to the public say it is. I think if it were, we would be seeing better fitness from him.
Granted, his fitness may be compromised somehow due to things we the public do not know. If that is the case then it will be very difficult for him to improve with the other dimensions.
His game would have to change, take him out of his historical comfort zone, and we may be seeing the results of that, where he has less patience, is committing more errors in an attempt to be more aggressive, to compensate for the lack of supreme fitness which he once had.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

ClayDeath

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his game is very heavily dependent on fitness and physicality. more so than any other player who has ever played in the history of mankind.

that is step #1 and priority #1. absolutely nothing is going to happen if he will continue to be worn out after just 40 minutes of play.

he even tells that you that he is tired but evidently nobody is listening.

he says his world is not tennis but his world is tennis. he knows no other world.


inactivity killed his game and his fitness. he has to completely dedicate himself to the game for about 9-10 months.


6-7 hours of hard work on clay will start to repair the ground game. but it all starts with massive amount of work on the fitness and the physical front.



you have to be able to understand the nature of the heavy topspin game to fully understand the games of very heavy topspin players are very heavily dependent on fitness and physicality.

it just happens to be even more so for Rafa.
 

ClayDeath

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I don't disagree britbox. Please don't misunderstand, certainly it is not the only component.
As I mentioned in the first post ("Last, but certainly not least") without sufficient dedication/motivation, one has little. So I think it starts with that, much like any player.
But given that there is sufficient dedication/motivation, then the next important component for Rafa and his topspin game is fitness; it starts with that, and then the rest of the other things follow.
I'm not sure his level of dedication/motivation is enough, even if his words to the public say it is. I think if it were, we would be seeing better fitness from him.
Granted, his fitness may be compromised somehow due to things we the public do not know. If that is the case then it will be very difficult for him to improve with the other dimensions.
His game would have to change, take him out of his historical comfort zone, and we may be seeing the results of that, where he has less patience, is committing more errors in an attempt to be more aggressive, to compensate for the lack of supreme fitness which he once had.

Respectfully,
masterclass


just tell general britbox about vilas, muster, and borg and he will start to figure this out.

heavy topspin players simply must depend on their fitness and their physicality to be able to dominate on clay. that is what allows them to fight on for hours. that is what allows them to outlast them all and outhustle and outmuscle them all.

their topspin and their movement does the rest.
 
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