The Dirt Devil vs the Serbian Slayer

[Kieran]

I didn't think he lacked energy, A-P, I just thought he began nervously and Novak played with gilt edged confidence, built up over a great season, and 3 other victories over a Rafa who's struggling for form. That's where they are now, and I agree with F-G, Rafa was unable to make any impact on Novak's serve. The one game where he got to 30-all, he was timid. He needs to get that fire and aggression back. But we've seen it against everyone except the top 2 this Autumn, so he knows what he needs to do...

 

[the AntiPusher]

Whatever the case, Djokovic's fitness and Nadal's lack of it will be the number one reason that Djokovic passes Nadal on the GOAT rankings by the time it's all said and done. H2H, Total Slams, Masters titles and total tour titles will be in Nole's favor soon. The final nail in the coffin will be when Nole wins the FO. Until then, that will be Nadal's last little bit of sunshine he has left.

Djokovic's fitness and Nadal's lack of it will be the number one reason that Djokovic

You are 100 % wrong!! It's due to not making the proper adjustments to Djokovic's recent Rafa counters. Rafa's fitness is okay. It's his unaggressive style of play that is his main problem.

 

[the AntiPusher]

No sillier than AP claiming Nadal's tired these days from a 2 h 37 min match against a nobody like Ferrer but yet could play a near 6 hour final at the AO '12 and a 5 hr 14 min match against Verdasco at the AO '09 and fresh as a daisy against Federer in the final. Can't have it both ways. What exactly happened to his fitness 'cos that's quite a drop methinks?!

You don't thinks, that's the problem. 2009 Oz is almost 6 years ago. 2012 Oz is almost 4 years ago. In the meantime, a lot of water under the bridge... :cover

4 years is nothing. I'm twice the age of many guys in the gym and way fitter and stronger than them. Fitness and shape don't disappear that drastically unless a key factor has changed.

Front being fit and having "fresh legs" is a bit different. Djoker won the match.. Rafa wasn't aggressive and his season is Over. Congrats to Djoker on his spectacular season.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I didn't think he lacked energy, A-P, I just thought he began nervously and Novak played with gilt edged confidence, built up over a great season, and 3 other victories over a Rafa who's struggling for form. That's where they are now, and I agree with F-G, Rafa was unable to make any impact on Novak's serve. The one game where he got to 30-all, he was timid. He needs to get that fire and aggression back. But we've seen it against everyone except the top 2 this Autumn, so he knows what he needs to do...

Fresh legs would have produce a more aggressive style of play. Novak's server is good but there is no reason that Rafa struggles with this guy's serve. Why Rafa doesn't attacks his serve is a mystery to me.

 

[Front242]

You don't thinks, that's the problem. 2009 Oz is almost 6 years ago. 2012 Oz is almost 4 years ago. In the meantime, a lot of water under the bridge... :cover

4 years is nothing. I'm twice the age of many guys in the gym and way fitter and stronger than them. Fitness and shape don't disappear that drastically unless a key factor has changed.

Front being fit and having "fresh legs" is a bit different. Djoker won the match.. Rafa wasn't aggressive and his season is Over. Congrats to Djoker on his spectacular season.

Yeah but my point was he's often not had fresh legs and it made absolutely ZERO difference and didn't today either. It was his tennis that was his undoing and not his legs.

 

[the AntiPusher]

4 years is nothing. I'm twice the age of many guys in the gym and way fitter and stronger than them. Fitness and shape don't disappear that drastically unless a key factor has changed.

Front being fit and having "fresh legs" is a bit different. Djoker won the match.. Rafa wasn't aggressive and his season is Over. Congrats to Djoker on his spectacular season.

Yeah but my point was he's often not had fresh legs and it made absolutely ZERO difference and didn't today either. It was his tennis that was his undoing and not his legs.

It was a combination of both. Very disappointing for not just his fans but tennis as a whole that he put forth such a lousy effort today. No way in Hell would I would have ever thought that he would let his season in like this. It is what it is.

 

[Front242]

Front being fit and having "fresh legs" is a bit different. Djoker won the match.. Rafa wasn't aggressive and his season is Over. Congrats to Djoker on his spectacular season.

Yeah but my point was he's often not had fresh legs and it made absolutely ZERO difference and didn't today either. It was his tennis that was his undoing and not his legs.

It was a combination of both. Very disappointing for not just his fans but tennis as a whole that he put forth such a lousy effort today. No way in Hell would I would have ever thought that he would let his season in like this. It is what it is.

That wasn't a lousy effort. He didn't play that badly at all. Novak is just flat out better at everything these days. I always likened Ferrer to Nadal-Lite. He has the same grinding game, the same never give up attitude but he's just a poor man's Nadal. Only thing he does better is grunt. He does it after he's hit the ball and before his opponent hit it :cover Djokovic is just a better version again. It's like A B C: Djokovic, Nadal, Ferrer in that order. The evolution of man. Similar games but Novak is the best by a country mile.

 

[Kieran]

Similar games? Rafa and Novak? :cover

 

[Haelfix]

Ferrer is more of what people consider the traditional grinder. Rafa is far more unique.

Ferrer's return is absolutely one of the best on tour, and is definitely better than Rafa's.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Apart from Novak's superiority on serve and return, which means he can start a majority of the rallies as the aggressor, my impression is that his backhand also makes Rafa extremely uncomfortable. Novak can hit it down the line or cross court with enough pace and angle to make it very tough for Rafa to take control of the rally with his forehand. That he seems to have trouble anticipating where Novak will place it in combination with his declined movement makes him look rather slow when he defends against Novak's aggressive backhand shots.

To change that dynamic Rafa probably needs great depth on his cross court forehand or hit his forehand down the line extremely well.

 

[Front242]

Similar games? Rafa and Novak? :cover

Well Novak obviously doesn't hit loopy topspin forehands and hits way more winners but they're both great returners, both solid off both wings, both have fantastic defense, both extremely fit, both very clutch players most of the time. Here's how they're classed on Wikipedia:

Djokovic is an all-court player with emphasis on aggressive baseline play.

Nadal generally plays an aggressive, behind-the-baseline game founded on heavy topspin groundstrokes, consistency, speedy footwork and tenacious court coverage, thus making him an aggressive counterpuncher.

Apart from the last part about counterpunching, the description of Nadal's play is just a fanboy jazzed up version of the description for Djokovic 'cos they both have speedy footwork, consistency, aggressive baseline play and tenacious court coverage but Djokovic steps into the court more. Main difference is Djokovic hits way flatter and therefore makes more winners. Other than that, yes, they are similar styles as they can both run forever out there on court whether attacking or defending.

 

[nehmeth]

Apart from Novak's superiority on serve and return, which means he can start a majority of the rallies as the aggressor, my impression is that his backhand also makes Rafa extremely uncomfortable. Novak can hit it down the line or cross court with enough pace and angle to make it very tough for Rafa to take control of the rally with his forehand. That he seems to have trouble anticipating where Novak will place it in combination with his declined movement makes him look rather slow when he defends against Novak's aggressive backhand shots.

Novak was hitting his cross court backhand on average 12mph faster than Murray's. Paul Annacone and Jim Courier were discussing that on Tennis Channel

 

[the AntiPusher]

Apart from Novak's superiority on serve and return, which means he can start a majority of the rallies as the aggressor, my impression is that his backhand also makes Rafa extremely uncomfortable. Novak can hit it down the line or cross court with enough pace and angle to make it very tough for Rafa to take control of the rally with his forehand. That he seems to have trouble anticipating where Novak will place it in combination with his declined movement makes him look rather slow when he defends against Novak's aggressive backhand shots.

Novak was hitting his cross court backhand on average 12mph faster than Murray's. Paul Annacone and Jim Courier were discussing that on Tennis Channel

Paul Annacone and Jim Courier were discussing needed to hit his fh flatter with more rpms plus hit the cc bh more..
for years I said that Rafa needed to hit his fh a bit flatter but the "ShoeString" always stated I was wrong..

 

[the AntiPusher]

Yeah but my point was he's often not had fresh legs and it made absolutely ZERO difference and didn't today either. It was his tennis that was his undoing and not his legs.

It was a combination of both. Very disappointing for not just his fans but tennis as a whole that he put forth such a lousy effort today. No way in Hell would I would have ever thought that he would let his season in like this. It is what it is.

That wasn't a lousy effort. He didn't play that badly at all. Novak is just flat out better at everything these days. I always likened Ferrer to Nadal-Lite. He has the same grinding game, the same never give up attitude but he's just a poor man's Nadal. Only thing he does better is grunt. He does it after he's hit the ball and before his opponent hit it :cover Djokovic is just a better version again. It's like A B C: Djokovic, Nadal, Ferrer in that order. The evolution of man. Similar games but Novak is the best by a country mile.

R U KIDDING.. during the first set, all Djoker saw was 2nd serves.. Rafa clean it up a bit in the 2nd set but it he was already down another break.. Djoker played a great 1st set but Rafa helped with his lousy slow start.

 

[Kieran]

Similar games? Rafa and Novak? :cover

Well Novak obviously doesn't hit loopy topspin forehands and hits way more winners but they're both great returners, both solid off both wings, both have fantastic defense, both extremely fit, both very clutch players most of the time. Here's how they're classed on Wikipedia:

Djokovic is an all-court player with emphasis on aggressive baseline play.

Nadal generally plays an aggressive, behind-the-baseline game founded on heavy topspin groundstrokes, consistency, speedy footwork and tenacious court coverage, thus making him an aggressive counterpuncher.

Apart from the last part about counterpunching, the description of Nadal's play is just a fanboy jazzed up version of the description for Djokovic 'cos they both have speedy footwork, consistency, aggressive baseline play and tenacious court coverage but Djokovic steps into the court more. Main difference is Djokovic hits way flatter and therefore makes more winners. Other than that, yes, they are similar styles as they can both run forever out there on court whether attacking or defending.

They're not even remotely the same. Unless the terms "baseliner" means only one thing.

From their serves (the same?), forehands (the same?), backhands (the same?), their returns (nowhere near the same), the way they construct and win points, these are two different styles, from different backgrounds. Even their movement is different, and Rafa has nothing on Novak when it comes to "running forever..." :nono

 

[nehmeth]

^^^
why can't you use the "same" word as Front - it's "similar"

 

[the AntiPusher]

^^^
why can't you use the "same" word as Front - it's "similar"

Man, too bad Front wasn't on the Tennis.com ;

 

[Kieran]

^^^
why can't you use the "same" word as Front - it's "similar"

They're not even similar, so there's the "same" word...

 

[Front242]

Apart from Novak's superiority on serve and return, which means he can start a majority of the rallies as the aggressor, my impression is that his backhand also makes Rafa extremely uncomfortable. Novak can hit it down the line or cross court with enough pace and angle to make it very tough for Rafa to take control of the rally with his forehand. That he seems to have trouble anticipating where Novak will place it in combination with his declined movement makes him look rather slow when he defends against Novak's aggressive backhand shots.

Novak was hitting his cross court backhand on average 12mph faster than Murray's. Paul Annacone and Jim Courier were discussing that on Tennis Channel

Murray was pushing like a dealer. Wawrinka bizarrely who has immense power on both wings, was pushing like Bautista-Agut (the ultimate pusher) in his match against Nadal. Puke making tennis when he's capable of powerful offense. Baffling. Hoping for a lot more aggression and shot making against Fed.

 

[nehmeth]

^^^
why can't you use the "same" word as Front - it's "similar"

They're not even similar, so there's the "same" word...

:snicker Well, then that puts your opinion against most all of the commentators and writers out there. [/b]