"The Andy Murray Problem"

GameSetAndMath

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fashionista said:
Andy Murray is looking for a assistant coach,as Mauresmo cannot be with him full time,she is also Fed Cup Captain for France,which Murray knew in advance.

That is why it is so foolish of him to let go of his Assistant Coach and Trainer just because
of dispute over this woman who is not even committing herself fulltime to coach him.
 

Billie

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Front242 said:
It's 100% the same person, come on. Every single thing about the posting style and Nadal worship is the same.

Maybe it is his twin brother, you never know.;)
 

Great Hands

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Luxilon Borg said:
El Dude said:
Luxilon Borg and Great Hands, it sounds like you are both emphasizing two different aspects of Murray that aren't mutually exclusive. GH is saying that he loses to the Big Three because they're simply better, while LB says its because of mental meltdowns. Isn't it both? I mean, LB are you saying that Murray is not inferior to the Big Three? You seem to imply that he's equally talented but doesn't have the same mental edge. And GH, isn't mentality part of talent? So isn't part of the reason he's not as good as the Big Three because he lacks their mental fortitude?

In other words, I think you guys are a lot closer than your disagreement implies.

As I posted to Hands:

Murray is as good as the other three in elite movement, 1st serve, and backhand department.

He also is an incredible fighter.

But the forehand, second serve, and court positioning, and underdevloped transition game make him #4 on that list.

The negative body language, the tirades, the fake injuries, and the running monologues with himself and his box DRAIN ENERGY.

This has been his downfall.

I agree with everything you have said! :)

My point was that it was not Murray's less strong mentality than the big 3, but this combined with his less good 'forehand, second serve, court positioning and underdevloped transition game', as you accuraltety put it, that caused him to lose to the big 3 more often than not.

in other words, even if murray was the mentally strongest tennis player in history, he still would have lost those matches because his less good forehand and second serve, and i owuld add physicality, would still be an issue.

regardless of the mentail issues, murray has lost to fed at slams because fed has such an incredible attacking game that when he's on, murray just cannot compete. like most tennis palayers who have ever lived haven't, or wouldn't have, been able to. that;s not to do with murray[s mentalty, it's to do with fed's technical skill and incredibel movmemtn.

regardless of the mental issues, murray has lost to nadal at slams because, along with the far superior forehand, nadal is a suerior athlete. watch their grnad slam matches. nadal out muscles murray on the court. he just has a natually sronger, more epxosive physique. djokovic has a naturally wiry, slenderly muscular phsyque, whereas murray was naturaly skinny as a young player and had to beef up thorugh traning, so he has a heavier build, and thus the long, griding matches with djokoivc take more out of him than they do djokoivc. his recent losses to djok at slams have shown that - murray tires first. i don't think he's not training hard, it'sjsut that djokovic' natural physique gives him the physical edge as the matches, as they invariably do, go intot he 4th or 5th hour.

again, none of this is to with murray's mentality, and however much murray qworks at his mentality, the other issues will still be there.

as i say, i cannot think, of all the big grand slam matches murray has played agianst trhe big 3, of a time when his 'mentality' has cost him the match. not a single one. this is the only thing i am disagreeing with you about, because you keep saying it has cost him slams, without ever offering me a psecific example! :)[/align]
 

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Loic Courteau,who currently works with French player Julien Benneteau,did confirm earlier that he had talks with Andy Murray,Loic at one time was the coach of Mauresmo.Murray has since stated to the press that he is in no hurry to appoint someone to his support team.
 

isabelle

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Andy's problem is Mauresmo...he should hire a full time coach
 

Federberg

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JesuslookslikeBorg said:
why couldn't he have kept lendl on part-time..does the coach really have to be oncourt during training ?, does the coach really have to be at most matches ?.

surely with modern technology they could find ways for lendl to see murrays big matches and/or training drills from his home if he didn't want to be physically travelling alot of the time..

surely at age 27 nearly 28 murray can look after himself tennis wise 90% of the time..and have lendl via 21st century media platforms overseeing and then discussing stuff with andy.

You're assuming that was the real reason Lendl left :blush:
 

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isabelle said:
Andy's problem is Mauresmo...he should hire a full time coach

It's not clear to me his results would have been better without Mauresmo! I think she's done a decent job. Murray's problems are due to ability and mentality. He could have the Angel Gabriel as his coach and I'm not sure it would have done much to change things. He lost to Novak at the Australian Open. What did people really expect?
 

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nehmeth said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
To tell you the truth I'm fed up with reading Peter Bodo articles. It's too much of a sensationalist view and the narrative that Murray lost because of his "outburst" is unsubstantiated. I mean, before the match, everyone was saying Djokovic was simply a better player/baseliner on thus sort of surface, and he'll dictate and win. Then...that exactly happens, and we're looking for explanations? I don't get it.

Agree with you on Bodo... after writing for 40 plus years and a gazillion articles, I guess the need to "stretch" things (just to keep his own interest), comes naturally.

Novak should have won on that court. But the the media (at least the English speaking), has this way of getting behind Murray. They cover things in such a way that even Novak's fans get a little concerned that maybe they're just not seeing how great Murray is and how average Novak was playing.

Then it comes to the match and Murray (in my opinion) is still a mental turd without Lendl. Novak plays his game and wins.

Of course Lendl should be credited for helping Murray get over the hump. But it's important not to go overboard. I certainly don't want to revise history... he did win fair and square after all, but Novak was shocking in both finals. Would we be going on about Lendl if the real Novak had showed up? I'm not so sure..
 

DarthFed

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Let's wait to see how 2015 pans out before really panicking in regards to Murray. 2014 was just a disaster, maybe he tried to come back too soon and Lendl leaving likely affected him mentally. It's tough to tell if Mauresmo is a negative or just mostly a non factor. I'd guess it's the latter. Clearly Lendl had a huge impact on Murray's game and mentality when he was there.
 

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Billie said:
OK, let's not drive the new guy away after his 1st day of posting!?:snicker

It seems to me that we all agree that Andy is a great player, but lacks a bit in technical and mental aspects. I sometimes feel like I am crazy for not hating or disliking anybody so much. I always root for somebody, very rarely against somebody. I also think that all players try to do the best they can, at the end of the day the results are there for all of us to see, we can't be completely fooled.:cool:

Thank you for being very welcoming and friendly, Billie! And don't worry, I haven't been driven away, or been offended or anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just stopped posting about this issue because I feel I've said what I have to say, and others have said what they think, and there's no point in repeating ourselves and going round in circles.:)
 

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Luxilon Borg said:
Billie said:
OK, let's not drive the new guy away after his 1st day of posting!?:snicker

It seems to me that we all agree that Andy is a great player, but lacks a bit in technical and mental aspects. I sometimes feel like I am crazy for not hating or disliking anybody so much. I always root for somebody, very rarely against somebody. I also think that all players try to do the best they can, at the end of the day the results are there for all of us to see, we can't be completely fooled.:cool:

Huh? Whose driving who away? Fair and friendly debate.

Yes, it has been fair and friendly. I am not someone who is personally offended if someone has a different opinion to me. Debate is all part of the fun, after all! :)
 

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federberg said:
nehmeth said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
To tell you the truth I'm fed up with reading Peter Bodo articles. It's too much of a sensationalist view and the narrative that Murray lost because of his "outburst" is unsubstantiated. I mean, before the match, everyone was saying Djokovic was simply a better player/baseliner on thus sort of surface, and he'll dictate and win. Then...that exactly happens, and we're looking for explanations? I don't get it.

Agree with you on Bodo... after writing for 40 plus years and a gazillion articles, I guess the need to "stretch" things (just to keep his own interest), comes naturally.

Novak should have won on that court. But the the media (at least the English speaking), has this way of getting behind Murray. They cover things in such a way that even Novak's fans get a little concerned that maybe they're just not seeing how great Murray is and how average Novak was playing.

Then it comes to the match and Murray (in my opinion) is still a mental turd without Lendl. Novak plays his game and wins.

Of course Lendl should be credited for helping Murray get over the hump. But it's important not to go overboard. I certainly don't want to revise history... he did win fair and square after all, but Novak was shocking in both finals. Would we be going on about Lendl if the real Novak had showed up? I'm not so sure..
Well the "real" Novak did show up. That's what happens w/ him since the 2011 days. He's prone to mental walkabouts and lapses in matches.
 
A

auto-pilot

So what is everyone's opinion on what exactly took place after Murray was up a break in the 3rd set?
In the 3rd set did Djokovic merely maintain his level from the first 2 sets, and Murray dropped?
Or did Djokovic lift his level in the 3rd set?
To me it looked like Murray's level dropped, including donating unforced errors, not hitting as deep, and looked dispirited after Djokovic got the break-back.
Whereas in the first 2 sets, Murray kept the ball very deep and therefore didn't allow Djokovic much room to control play or pick-off winners.
Would Murray have performed differently in the 3rd set and maintained his level if Lendl was in his camp?
Maybe.
 

El Dude

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It is rather interesting how people continue to speak of Andy Murray as if something is "wrong" with him, as if his performance is a far-cry from his ability. As I see it, his performance perfectly matches his ability level. If you look at his record since he broke through in 2008, he's got the 4th best overall numbers; I'd say that is very accurate for his ability level - that he's been "the best of the rest" after the Big Three. If you look at his record, it was really only a five-Slam span of time--from Wimbledon 2012 to Wimbledon 2013--where he seemed coeval with the Big Three, which in a way is reminiscent of Guillermo Vilas's run from 1977 to mid-78.

To put that another way, overall Andy Murray has been about as good as Roger Federer since 2010. In other words, peak Murray = post-peak (plateau) Federer. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is better than all but two players on tour. What do people expect from him?

This phenomena is not unlike how some folks think Novak has been sub-par after 2011, as if that was a sustainable level that he simply failed to keep up for various reasons. Actually, 2011 was his best season and established a new level for him, but like Roger's 2006 or Rafa's 2010, it wasn't that he was much worse the following year, its that he played at his very best and didn't as much decline as settled into a more manageable level, as well as the fact that others adjusted and got better.

The simple fact with Andy is that, for better or worse, he's playing alongside three of the greatest players to ever swing a racket - he's a great player, but just not as great as Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. This was the lot in life of Guillermo Vilas and, for a few years at least, Ivan Lendl. I think people were hoping that 2012-13 was a sign that Murray was following the Lendl career path. Like Andy, who won his first Slam--the 2012 US Open--at the relatively ripe age of 25, Lendl won his first Slam late or an all-time great at the age of 24. But unlike Andy (so far at least), it wasn't simply his best year so far, it signalled a rise to a new level. Lendl went on to be the year-end #1 in four of the next five years, age 25-29. Both won a Slam per year in their first two Slam winning years, but whereas Lendl won two Slams in each of two following two years--1986-87--Andy didn't win a Slam or Masters in 2014, which would have been the equivalent of Lendl's 1986. It is interesting to note that Andy fell away from the Lendl career path around the time he parted ways with Lendl as his coach.

What's next for Andy? Well, he turns 28 in a few months which places him firmly in his "plateau phase." Chances are we won't see higher heights than we've already seen. I suspect Andy will remain a Slam threat and top 10 player, even top 5, for several more years, but I think the ship has sailed on him following Lendl's path and claiming his place among the greats. That said, Roger Federer is going to be 34 later this year and Rafa has some big question marks, and given that Andy remains the "best of the rest" he may only have to solve, or get around, one player. In other words, he very well could have another Slam or two in him - unless, of course, Rafa regains his health and one or more of the young guns miraculously reach a new level. But all things tolled, I think Andy is probably still the third contender for Slam titles over the next couple years, and is still probably the second most likely to win at Wimbledon.

One other point of difference from Lendl. Ivan lost his first four Slam finals to Borg, Connors (twice) and Wilander. I'm not sure he improved in 1984 and beyond as much as the field shifted to help him rise to the top. Borg retired, Connors continued to age, and then McEnroe stuttered and declined. Aside from his incredible 1988, Wilander didn't quite capitalize on his early promise, and the next group of elite players--Becker and Edberg--didn't fully come into their own until the late 80s, when Lendl begin to show cracks. Plus I don't think Becker or Edberg (or Wilander) were quite in the same league as the former "Big Three" (Connors, Borg, McEnroe). In other words, Lendl's very best years--1986-87--were nestled in a nice gap between the reign of Borg/Connors/McEnroe and the rise of Wilander/Edberg/Becker, and then of course the arrival of Agassi and Sampras. I am not saying that it was a weak era, but that those two years when Lendl won two Slams a year were in a nice window of opportunity when Ivan was the only great player playing at his best. Even when Edberg and Becker peaked, Lendl was right with them, but whereas Lendl was clearly the top player in 1986-87, he was more in the pack with the others in 1988-90. Actually, until Sampras took over the #1 spot in 1993, there was a nice half-decade or so (longer if you want to go back to the end of McEnroe's dominance in 1985) in which the top players were packed close together.

But I ramble on!
 

MargaretMcAleer

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auto-pilot said:
So what is everyone's opinion on what exactly took place after Murray was up a break in the 3rd set?
In the 3rd set did Djokovic merely maintain his level from the first 2 sets, and Murray dropped?
Or did Djokovic lift his level in the 3rd set?
To me it looked like Murray's level dropped, including donating unforced errors, not hitting as deep, and looked dispirited after Djokovic got the break-back.
Whereas in the first 2 sets, Murray kept the ball very deep and therefore didn't allow Djokovic much room to control play or pick-off winners.
Would Murray have performed differently in the 3rd set and maintained his level if Lendl was in his camp?
Maybe.


It is up to the player on court,not his coach,a coach can only prepare his/her player before any match,at the end of the day,the onus is on the player.To me Murray lost his concentration/focus when he was up a break in the 3rd set,he let Novak back into the set,cant afford to do that to any player,especially Novak.I didnt think the final was a high quality match at all quite frankly,my husband went to bed after the 3rd set he said he had enough,wasnt impressed by either player.
 

Luxilon Borg

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Great Hands said:
Luxilon Borg said:
Billie said:
OK, let's not drive the new guy away after his 1st day of posting!?:snicker

It seems to me that we all agree that Andy is a great player, but lacks a bit in technical and mental aspects. I sometimes feel like I am crazy for not hating or disliking anybody so much. I always root for somebody, very rarely against somebody. I also think that all players try to do the best they can, at the end of the day the results are there for all of us to see, we can't be completely fooled.:cool:

Huh? Whose driving who away? Fair and friendly debate.

Yes, it has been fair and friendly. I am not someone who is personally offended if someone has a different opinion to me. Debate is all part of the fun, after all! :)

Absolutely, same here.

For the record, I consider you an informed poster with good knowledge base, and you are obviously passionate..

I look forward to future debates!
 

Luxilon Borg

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Great Hands said:
Billie said:
OK, let's not drive the new guy away after his 1st day of posting!?:snicker

It seems to me that we all agree that Andy is a great player, but lacks a bit in technical and mental aspects. I sometimes feel like I am crazy for not hating or disliking anybody so much. I always root for somebody, very rarely against somebody. I also think that all players try to do the best they can, at the end of the day the results are there for all of us to see, we can't be completely fooled.:cool:

Thank you for being very welcoming and friendly, Billie! And don't worry, I haven't been driven away, or been offended or anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just stopped posting about this issue because I feel I've said what I have to say, and others have said what they think, and there's no point in repeating ourselves and going round in circles.:)

Let me add my welcome too.

I love posters who don't take spirited debates personally.
 

Federberg

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auto-pilot said:
So what is everyone's opinion on what exactly took place after Murray was up a break in the 3rd set?
In the 3rd set did Djokovic merely maintain his level from the first 2 sets, and Murray dropped?
Or did Djokovic lift his level in the 3rd set?
To me it looked like Murray's level dropped, including donating unforced errors, not hitting as deep, and looked dispirited after Djokovic got the break-back.
Whereas in the first 2 sets, Murray kept the ball very deep and therefore didn't allow Djokovic much room to control play or pick-off winners.
Would Murray have performed differently in the 3rd set and maintained his level if Lendl was in his camp?
Maybe.

my guess is that his biggest weakness - his 2nd serve - cost him dearly. It felt like he couldn't buy a point without a decent first serve after a while. This is one of his biggest weaknesses against Roger and Novak. He starts off ok on that side.. usually.. but once those guys get used to it, it puts tremendous pressure on him. He might get away with WTA style serves against lesser players, but you really can't afford to be at such a huge disadvantage against a stone cold killa like Novak
 

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federberg said:
nehmeth said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
To tell you the truth I'm fed up with reading Peter Bodo articles. It's too much of a sensationalist view and the narrative that Murray lost because of his "outburst" is unsubstantiated. I mean, before the match, everyone was saying Djokovic was simply a better player/baseliner on thus sort of surface, and he'll dictate and win. Then...that exactly happens, and we're looking for explanations? I don't get it.

Agree with you on Bodo... after writing for 40 plus years and a gazillion articles, I guess the need to "stretch" things (just to keep his own interest), comes naturally.

Novak should have won on that court. But the the media (at least the English speaking), has this way of getting behind Murray. They cover things in such a way that even Novak's fans get a little concerned that maybe they're just not seeing how great Murray is and how average Novak was playing.

Then it comes to the match and Murray (in my opinion) is still a mental turd without Lendl. Novak plays his game and wins.

Of course Lendl should be credited for helping Murray get over the hump. But it's important not to go overboard. I certainly don't want to revise history... he did win fair and square after all, but Novak was shocking in both finals. Would we be going on about Lendl if the real Novak had showed up? I'm not so sure..

Novak "showed up" in the AO 2012 semi and barely squeaked by Murray. Let's not re-write history indeed, especially with one sided hypotheticals.

Novak was not shocking at the 2012 US Open final. This is a complete myth that again, got thrown around here too much and was believed. Murray handled the wind better. When the wind calmed down, Novak was actually outplaying him.