Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game

[atttomole]

^I disagree. There comes a time when you can't blame it on the coach. He is so clearly not a leader. When his colleagues in the Barcelona team have international honours galore, you have to ask, are they the ones making it possible for him to win all those club honours? He's a phenomenal player, but the hype has run so far away from the facts in my view, it's laughable

Iniesta was in garbage form all season, Xavi was bench player all season, Puyol is retired and the only one with international honors who was in remotely good form was Pique. That didn't stop Barcelona from sweeping through everything this season. It's either due to Messi or Pique. I'll go with the former.

i was in fact happy that the notion of "Messi can't do it without Inesta and Xavi" died this season (though apparently not), since both were virtually non factors (though I'il give Iniesta credit for a good performance in the champions league final).

To me, the notion that a player who scores 80+ goals a year, many of which of pure individual brilliance, is doing it due to teammates is laughable. I mean that's the knock against Messi? That he lost a world cup final when Di Maria and Aguero were injured, the coach didn't take Tevez, and his strikers just couldn't finish (which included some awful misses by Higuain and Palacio) in a TEAM sports? That's his biggest crime? That he lost on penalties to Chile because his teammates couldn't convert a penalty?

But Pele, who was a bench player in his first world cup win till the final, was injured early in his second world cup win and was a non factor, was a part of perhaps the greatest international side of all time in his third world cup win (where he was admittedly brilliant), is in a league of his own? Despite never playing in Europe, playing in an era of football were goals came like candy cause nobody had any idea how to defend, and spent his club career in Brazil? Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I find it insane that we're judging players simply on whether they win events that take place once every four years, and completely sweeping under the rug what they do week in, week out, year in, year out.

I laugh at the notion of Pele being the best ever. To me, that's the same as claiming Laver is the best ever (and he would have been statistically, had he been allowed to play more slams).

Maradona? I'll give that some long and hard thought. He was something else. But if Messi isn't Maradona, he's not too far behind.

I also would not say that Messi was successful because of Xavi and Iniesta, but rather because he plays in a team with a well developed system, and that system is perfect for his game. The system is developed from the youth level, and newcomers have to adapt to that system to succeed at Barca. Barcelona made a few changes this year with Rakitic and Suarez coming in, but the system is more or less the same, and the two new guys have adapted well to the system. In fact, the current Barcelona attack is even more devastating than when Guardiola was coach. And Barca still remains formidable, in spite of the changes that have occurred in recent years. Their attack looks stronger (actually frightening), their midfield is still great and they can keep possession of the ball like they have done for the past decade. They still remain the strongest club team right now.

 

[brokenshoelace]

^I disagree. There comes a time when you can't blame it on the coach. He is so clearly not a leader. When his colleagues in the Barcelona team have international honours galore, you have to ask, are they the ones making it possible for him to win all those club honours? He's a phenomenal player, but the hype has run so far away from the facts in my view, it's laughable

Iniesta was in garbage form all season, Xavi was bench player all season, Puyol is retired and the only one with international honors who was in remotely good form was Pique. That didn't stop Barcelona from sweeping through everything this season. It's either due to Messi or Pique. I'll go with the former.

i was in fact happy that the notion of "Messi can't do it without Inesta and Xavi" died this season (though apparently not), since both were virtually non factors (though I'il give Iniesta credit for a good performance in the champions league final).

To me, the notion that a player who scores 80+ goals a year, many of which of pure individual brilliance, is doing it due to teammates is laughable. I mean that's the knock against Messi? That he lost a world cup final when Di Maria and Aguero were injured, the coach didn't take Tevez, and his strikers just couldn't finish (which included some awful misses by Higuain and Palacio) in a TEAM sports? That's his biggest crime? That he lost on penalties to Chile because his teammates couldn't convert a penalty?

But Pele, who was a bench player in his first world cup win till the final, was injured early in his second world cup win and was a non factor, was a part of perhaps the greatest international side of all time in his third world cup win (where he was admittedly brilliant), is in a league of his own? Despite never playing in Europe, playing in an era of football were goals came like candy cause nobody had any idea how to defend, and spent his club career in Brazil? Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I find it insane that we're judging players simply on whether they win events that take place once every four years, and completely sweeping under the rug what they do week in, week out, year in, year out.

I laugh at the notion of Pele being the best ever. To me, that's the same as claiming Laver is the best ever (and he would have been statistically, had he been allowed to play more slams).

Maradona? I'll give that some long and hard thought. He was something else. But if Messi isn't Maradona, he's not too far behind.

I also would not say that Messi was successful because of Xavi and Iniesta, but rather because he plays in a team with a well developed system, and that system is perfect for his game. The system is developed from the youth level, and newcomers have to adapt to that system to succeed at Barca. Barcelona made a few changes this year with Rakitic and Suarez coming in, but the system is more or less the same, and the two new guys have adapted well to the system. In fact, the current Barcelona attack is even more devastating than when Guardiola was coach. And Barca still remains formidable, in spite of the changes that have occurred in recent years. Their attack looks stronger (actually frightening), their midfield is still great and they can keep possession of the ball like they have done for the past decade. They still remain the strongest club team right now.

I disagree that Barca play the same system now that they did under Guardiola. They are far less reliant on possession (Xavi and Iniesta's declines more or less dictated that, and there's a reason they never played at the same time this season), and play more direct Football. For years, their midfield was their heart and soul, but not this year. This year it was all about ways in which their absurdly talented frontline could expose opponents, which meant a lot of reliance on counter-attacks, and more direct football in the build-up play. It also meant more reliance on individual brilliance and one-on-one football, as well as ways in which their forwards linked up with short 1-2's. This was the first year since Eto'o was in the team in which they relied on their striker's movement to free up space for the other two forwards.

Keep in mind, Messi also went back to playing on the right side this year, rather than in the middle, which he had been doing for the past 4 years.

That said, I agree that the system, stability and overall chemistry at Barcelona have certainly helped Messi, but that team wouldn't have won a single champions league since Guardiola took over without him. Not one.

Now, most great players thrived in great teams. Pele did it as mentioned above, in one of the greatest international sides in history. There are 11 players on every side. No player is going to do it alone...well, except Maradona.

 

[Riotbeard]

While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

.well, except Maradona.

...and the hand of God?

Nah, Armando Diego was something special.

 

[Federberg]

While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!

It's awesome there isn't it? I went to a local match there in about 2001. I forget the teams playing. There's a picture of me somewhere slumped on the seat. Had one too many beers that afternoon. Great fun! You're lucky you've seen it after the renovation. When I was there the seats were just concrete

 

[Riotbeard]

While not really a football fan, I thought folks would be interested in that I was a match at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro this weekend. It was super fun!

It's awesome there isn't it? I went to a local match there in about 2001. I forget the teams playing. There's a picture of me somewhere slumped on the seat. Had one too many beers that afternoon. Great fun! You're lucky you've seen it after the renovation. When I was there the seats were just concrete

Yes, very fun. We were in center field about the 10th row, so really great seats. We saw a local match Flamengo (Of Rio) vs. a team whose name I can't remember. I wish we had a few too many. They don't sell beer in the stadium anymore. There were sooooo many riot police haha. I guess Brazillian soccer fans can get rowdy.

We flew from New Orleans through Panama, and the panamanian national team was at the same airport bar, haha. I also randomly sat next to a retired professional mexican player (local leagues) on the flight back. I guess the lesson is, if you go to Latin America, you will be surrounded by football.

 

[Riotbeard]

.well, except Maradona.

...and the hand of God?

Nah, Armando Diego was something special.

We did go to the jesus.

 

[britbox]

This is an old thread but worthy of resurrection...

Two questions:

1) Give us your First XI picking any player ever.

2) Give us your First XI of any players you've ever seen playing (TV counts) but it's got to have been players who were active when you were old enough to remember.

This needs to be a functional winning team rather than trying to put greats in just because they are great.

 

[atttomole]

Ok
Buffon

Zanetti. Baresi. Nesta. Maldini
Gerard Vieira
Zidane Maradona.
Messi
Ronaldo de Lima

This is a perfect team and is strong in all departments. It has everything. This team can play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation.

On the bench; Neuer, Cafu, Adams, Parker, Samuel, Guardiola, Makelele, Cambiasso, Ronaldinho, Baggio, van Bastern, Cristiano Ronaldo and Figo.

 

[britbox]

Ok
Buffon

Zanetti. Baresi. Nesta. Maldini
Gerard Vieira
Zidane Maradona.
Messi
Ronaldo de Lima

This is a perfect team and is strong in all departments. It has everything. This team can play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation.

On the bench; Neuer, Cafu, Adams, Parker, Samuel, Guardiola, Makelele, Cambiasso, Ronaldinho, Baggio, van Bastern, Cristiano Ronaldo and Figo.

Bit too narrow for my liking, not enough width.

 

[atttomole]

Depending on the opposition, I can easily remove Zidane and put Makelele, who can play alongside Gerard and Viera in midfield, to protect the defence. A front 3 of Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi is fine, and they can move around the whole attack as they wish.


Buffon

Zanetti. Baresi Nesta Maldini

Gerard Makelele Vieira

Maradona

Messi Ronaldo de Lima

 

[atttomole]

And Arsenal wins the first game of the new Premier League season against Leicester. It was a thriller.

 

[Tennisman12345]

And Arsenal wins the first game of the new Premier League season against Leicester. It was a thriller.

New season and yet they get the same old luck .... At least 9 man Chelsea lost today, Tottenham play tomorrow we are gonna take the title this year , been the best team the last few seasons just missing that little bit of luck. COYS !!!!!!

 

[atttomole]

New season and yet they get the same old luck .... At least 9 man Chelsea lost today, Tottenham play tomorrow we are gonna take the title this year , been the best team the last few seasons just missing that little bit of luck. COYS !!!!!!

Tottenham can play excellent football, and I think they could have won it last season, and the one before it. However, I think they need a few more top drawer players to win it. It's ironic that they sold Midric to Real, and he is the one who makes Real tick. With Modric, Tottenham could have one the Premier League by now.

 

[Tennisman12345]

Tottenham can play excellent football, and I think they could have won it last season, and the one before it. However, I think they need a few more top drawer players to win it. It's ironic that they sold Midric to Real, and he is the one who makes Real tick. With Modric, Tottenham could have one the Premier League by now.

I agree about needing a few more top players. Tottenham's current squad is fantastic but if one or two key players get injured it can be very problematic. If only we could have Modric and Bale back! One player to look out for this season for Spurs is Marcus Edwards he could be the next youth player to shine in the main team. I also hope N'koudou gets more of a chance this year his is very quick and could be a super sub. I just hope Tottenham win tomorrow need a good start to the season!

 

[Federberg]

I agree about needing a few more top players. Tottenham's current squad is fantastic but if one or two key players get injured it can be very problematic. If only we could have Modric and Bale back! One player to look out for this season for Spurs is Marcus Edwards he could be the next youth player to shine in the main team. I also hope N'koudou gets more of a chance this year his is very quick and could be a super sub. I just hope Tottenham win tomorrow need a good start to the season!

Glad to see a fellow Lilywhite on the boards! I'm a bit worried about squad depth too. Was ok with Walker going tbh, I actually think Trippiers better. And younger! Wouldn't surprise me to see Walker turning back into Mr Calamity as Pep isn't likely to be as tough on him with his defensive reponsibilities. Kyle Walker-Peters was good today, need to see more but he could be a good deputy. I'm with you about Nkoudou and Edwards. We've got some great lads coming through. Just need a few more top guys in. If we can get Barkley I would be happy to see the back of Sissoko.

All in all if it wasn't for Wembley I would be a hell of a lot more confident about our title chances. We'll learn more next week I guess

 

[Tennisman12345]

Glad to see a fellow Lilywhite on the boards! I'm a bit worried about squad depth too. Was ok with Walker going tbh, I actually think Trippiers better. And younger! Wouldn't surprise me to see Walker turning back into Mr Calamity as Pep isn't likely to be as tough on him with his defensive reponsibilities. Kyle Walker-Peters was good today, need to see more but he could be a good deputy. I'm with you about Nkoudou and Edwards. We've got some great lads coming through. Just need a few more top guys in. If we can get Barkley I would be happy to see the back of Sissoko.

All in all if it wasn't for Wembley I would be a hell of a lot more confident about our title chances. We'll learn more next week I guess

Good win today, I really don't want Barkey, nothing special imo especially with his price and wages. Sissoko is terrible the sooner he leaves the better. Hope we beat Chelsea next week glad Cahill and Fabredickhead are suspended next week, hope Kane and Dele destroy them

 

[Federberg]

Good win today, I really don't want Barkey, nothing special imo especially with his price and wages. Sissoko is terrible the sooner he leaves the better. Hope we beat Chelsea next week glad Cahill and Fabredickhead are suspended next week, hope Kane and Dele destroy them

I hear you about Barkley, I'm not sold on him but if Poch sees something in him then I'm a believer! Would be a great statement if we can do the blue scum, but I'm cautious for now. We weren't great yesterday

 

[Tennisman12345]

Looks like we will not be signing Barkley. Hopefully we will win Sunday, but I can just see the ref giving a dodgy decision or some other bs bad luck we normally get against them at Wembley. But a win would be massive and really set us up for great things this season. I hope Kane gets a goal he could easily get 40 this season!

 

[Federberg]

Looks like we will not be signing Barkley. Hopefully we will win Sunday, but I can just see the ref giving a dodgy decision or some other bs bad luck we normally get against them at Wembley. But a win would be massive and really set us up for great things this season. I hope Kane gets a goal he could easily get 40 this season!

It would be great to see Harry finally score in August. Why are you so sure that we won't sign Barkley? Has some new news come out? I know he's injured, but the word is there was still interest. And now that Everton have Sigurdsson he's going to a spare wheel for them. At the end of the day if they don't sell him now they'll get next to nothing in the January window, this is the last year of his contract. I'm thinking the injury probably strengthen Levy's hand. He'll probably put in a £15m bid on the last day!