Serious PC thread

[Moxie]

Didn't you ask the question about people's views of political correctness? I thought that was an offer to listen, not define it yourself and yes, the world is a bigger place than the United States.

There is a connection between language and empathy but it's not a mirror image. You seem to be hinting that you must agree with everything a minority group expresses to have empathy. No you don't... and who actually defines what is acceptable and what isn't? The way I'm seeing it, is that it's often left of centre white folk who think they are being "fair" and respectful and they've made an industry out of it... when the reality is that they are creating huge divisions by continually categorising people and chastising people who don't fall into line with the soviet style "group think". It goes beyond racist and sexist terms... the next wave of this entitled group are burning their countries flags, banning speakers they don't like, unwilling to debate or find middle ground, ripping down historical monuments... it's the child of political correctness.

Perhaps you can see why I've decided to stop posting on this thread. You're not interested in what I wrote, but what you chose to read into it. I don't think I was "hinting" at anything. Perhaps you should consider your own prejudices about liberal white folks. It's not easy to be the lone voice around here for what I believe is useful about political correctness, so if you're going to reinterpret me back to myself, it's doubly frustrating. I don't think I've ever prevented you from defining terms from your position. As to PC-ness in the US, I distinguish it because I have actively seen it function differently, and be at different stages of evolution in different countries. It's very much something that is subject to the culture of a particular country. I can't speak for the world, but only try to tell you how I believe it functions in the US.

As to your last, I think it's one of the problems with "your side" and its objections to political correctness. You put many things that are worthy of public debate, protest, objection under the umbrella of 'child of PC,' when the conversation is more complex on the various examples you cite. Do you fear some slippery slope that you can't control through public debate and your own lack of personal choice? Flag burning predates the notion of PC, and, in the US, at least, it is protected speech. Taking down historical Confederate monuments, (and also removing the Confederate flag from some state buildings and even some state flags,) is the subject of long debate and much consideration here. To put that down to political correctness is to misunderstand a very complicated wrestling with our own history. And just wondering: did you object when the Russians or Ukrainians took down statues of Stalin and Lenin?

 

[Moxie]

A visual history of toppling monuments, via the NYTimes.

 

[britbox]

Perhaps you can see why I've decided to stop posting on this thread. You're not interested in what I wrote, but what you chose to read into it. I don't think I was "hinting" at anything. Perhaps you should consider your own prejudices about liberal white folks. It's not easy to be the lone voice around here for what I believe is useful about political correctness, so if you're going to reinterpret me back to myself, it's doubly frustrating. I don't think I've ever prevented you from defining terms from your position. As to PC-ness in the US, I distinguish it because I have actively seen it function differently, and be at different stages of evolution in different countries. It's very much something that is subject to the culture of a particular country. I can't speak for the world, but only try to tell you how I believe it functions in the US.

As to your last, I think it's one of the problems with "your side" and its objections to political correctness. You put many things that are worthy of public debate, protest, objection under the umbrella of 'child of PC,' when the conversation is more complex on the various examples you cite. Do you fear some slippery slope that you can't control through public debate and your own lack of personal choice? Flag burning predates the notion of PC, and, in the US, at least, it is protected speech. Taking down historical Confederate monuments, (and also removing the Confederate flag from some state buildings and even some state flags,) is the subject of long debate and much consideration here. To put that down to political correctness is to misunderstand a very complicated wrestling with our own history. And just wondering: did you object when the Russians or Ukrainians took down statues of Stalin and Lenin?

The point was that you posted up the Radio Host video and followed it up asking people how they defined political correctness... which is basically what I and a few others did. Your question was answered... you just didn't get the answer you were looking for. There is no right or wrong answer really - it's more of an opinion.

I welcome public debate and personal choice, but as we have seen with ever increasing frequency, these aren't being allowed to happen - speakers regularly being prevented from talking at universities because student groups don't like people who don't fit that group think mindset. I don't blame political correctness for everything but it certainly helped get the genie out of the bottle. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

 

[Moxie]

The point was that you posted up the Radio Host video and followed it up asking people how they defined political correctness... which is basically what I and a few others did. Your question was answered... you just didn't get the answer you were looking for. There is no right or wrong answer really - it's more of an opinion.

I welcome public debate and personal choice, but as we have seen with ever increasing frequency, these aren't being allowed to happen - speakers regularly being prevented from talking at universities because student groups don't like people who don't fit that group think mindset. I don't blame political correctness for everything but it certainly helped get the genie out of the bottle. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

I think you're being unfair to me that I was looking for an "answer" as to PC. It's a debatable point and I've only offered my counter. Why is that not fair? I don't see it they way that you do. It's not easy to get my voice heard in this echo chamber of a forum. Given that I am the lone dissenting voice, you might be a little more open to my different voice. But fine. However, you didn't answer my question as to how fearful you are about the slippery slope. To me, it seems the major complaint from your side. Fear. What are you really afraid is going to happen, that would be out of your control?

 

[britbox]

I think you're being unfair to me that I was looking for an "answer" as to PC. It's a debatable point and I've only offered my counter. Why is that not fair? I don't see it they way that you do. It's not easy to get my voice heard in this echo chamber of a forum. Given that I am the lone dissenting voice, you might be a little more open to my different voice. But fine. However, you didn't answer my question as to how fearful you are about the slippery slope. To me, it seems the major complaint from your side. Fear. What are you really afraid is going to happen, that would be out of your control?

I think there is some cross wires here... I said you asked other posters for their definition of PC.

On the slippery slope stuff... this is kind of moving onto a bigger thing, but I think there are connections to Political Correctness in regard to mindset - in respect that there is an increasing fallback on a victim mentality. I don't think you can go through life without discriminating on some grounds or other... you wouldn't be able to make a decision on anything without doing so.

Anyway, that's a separate strand to this stuff... on PC alone, I don't like the idea of group think... basically being told how to think and secondly I don't like tribal categorisation of groups or being told how they should be identified. I prefer identifying people as I find them individually not as part of a collective group. I mean even the group you have labelled me in... "privileged white male" - are we all the same? do we hold a common opinion across millions of people? - absolutely not. That's why I find pigeon-holing people into groups very divisive and counter productive. I think it is dangerous because we are now seeing blowback and people becoming more extreme without caring to even listen and debate.

If you think I have misunderstood or misrepresented anything you've said then let me know the specifics.

 

[Moxie]

I do think you misunderstand me on a basic level, but that has to do with how much we differ on the topic. I really don't see anything to be gained by discussing it further. You have your notion of what PC means, and I have mine. That's fine. This is a tennis forum, after all.

 

[Federberg]

I was watching CNN the other day, and some of the data an analyst had compiled was truly disturbing. Apparently, and what shocked me was that this is not just an American phenomenon, more and more people believe that democracy is not necessarily the best system for society. More and more people believe that violence is an acceptable tool in a protest. When you add this to all the information coming out now about Russian tactics during the US elections (and no doubt other elections in Western democracies) - the subversion of social media to influence the thinking of the American electorate - I start to question who actually has come out on top in the aftermath of the ending of the cold war. Talk about asymmetric warfare! Putin has played an absolute blinder. This just makes me loathe the GOP more, because they have been anti-education for such a long time that it has created a fertile ground for climate change denial, fake news and a whole host of other things. I just didn't realise that the political weakness of the left would translate to activists on the left also rejecting some of the basic tenets that make democracy such an effective system. Even professors at American universities are boycotting debates with people whose views they oppose. FFS what about having the intellectual confidence to debate against those you fervently disagree with? At the end of the day if the electorate really is that dumb then democracy really doesn't have much use at all. Depressing!

 

[Horsa]

I was watching CNN the other day, and some of the data an analyst had compiled was truly disturbing. Apparently, and what shocked me was that this is not just an American phenomenon, more and more people believe that democracy is not necessarily the best system for society. More and more people believe that violence is an acceptable tool in a protest. When you add this to all the information coming out now about Russian tactics during the US elections (and no doubt other elections in Western democracies) - the subversion of social media to influence the thinking of the American electorate - I start to question who actually has come out on top in the aftermath of the ending of the cold war. Talk about asymmetric warfare! Putin has played an absolute blinder. This just makes me loathe the GOP more, because they have been anti-education for such a long time that it has created a fertile ground for climate change denial, fake news and a whole host of other things. I just didn't realise that the political weakness of the left would translate to activists on the left also rejecting some of the basic tenets that make democracy such an effective system. Even professors at American universities are boycotting debates with people whose views they oppose. FFS what about having the intellectual confidence to debate against those you fervently disagree with? At the end of the day if the electorate really is that dumb then democracy really doesn't have much use at all. Depressing!

I agree. I wish people would accept votes, stop throwing teddies out of prams & get on with life, discussing differences in a civilized manner instead of having slanging matches. What happened with agreeing to disagree & accepting that everyone had the right to have & air an opinion as long as it's done correctly? Doing it correctly means saying what you have to say & listening to others saying what they have to say without interrupting each other or name-calling, showing each other respect & if you still disagree with what they have to say stating this fact & then saying we're both entitled to our opinions but we won't agree so we may as well agree to disagree then changing the subject to others. It is very depressing so I've decided to only get my news once a day when reading my newspaper which I often have to do while listening & singing along to music to stop myself getting depressed. I manage this also by not watching much t.v. unless on d.v.d. so when I'm not working or reading the newspaper I'm either reading a book, sewing, painting or baking. I sometimes write poems, songs & stories too.

 

[Horsa]

I agree. I wish people would accept votes, stop throwing teddies out of prams & get on with life, discussing differences in a civilized manner instead of having slanging matches. The British people who disagreed with the Brexit vote started this off. I just started learning old weights & measures as the stalls in the nearby market towns started selling goods using them immediately. I didn't want David Cameron to be P.M. the last time because of the fact some of his laws caused the death of elderly & disabled people but he was voted in so I accepted it instead of doing what some people have done since when the votes didn't go their way & throw their teddies out of the pram like toddlers who can't get what they want. They're really clever & mature I must say. (Last sentence meant to be ironic as people can't always sense irony in written statements anymore)What happened with agreeing to disagree & accepting that everyone had the right to have & air an opinion as long as it's done correctly? Doing it correctly means saying what you have to say & listening to others saying what they have to say without interrupting each other or name-calling, showing each other respect & if you still disagree with what they have to say stating this fact & then saying we're both entitled to our opinions but we won't agree so we may as well agree to disagree then changing the subject to others. It is very depressing so I've decided to only get my news once a day when reading my newspaper which I often have to do while listening & singing along to music to stop myself getting depressed. I manage this also by not watching much t.v. unless on d.v.d. so when I'm not working or reading the newspaper I'm either reading a book, sewing, painting or baking. I sometimes write poems, songs & stories too.

 

[Obsi]

More and more people believe that violence is an acceptable tool in a protest.

But you said that violent left-wingers are your friends. You imbecile.

Agreed, but the sole purpose for AntiFA is to combat neo-fascist groups as far as I understand. So while as a standalone proposition they would look like Militant to me.... I'll simply say this... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

 

[Federberg]

But you said that violent left-wingers are your friends. You imbecile.

You really do follow me everywhere don't you? So flattering!

You have the answer in my comment that you posted. But I know you're a moron - you are Obsi the moron (OTM) after all, so I'm not really explaining myself to you - I know you'll never get it. Rather I'm directing this at anyone else who might look at that post you copied and miss the specificity of the context. Rather antifa than racists

 

[Moxie]

We do understand what you have to say & are interested in your views. You're not fighting your corner all alone. We understand the need for P.C. & think it's gone too far now. We need to consider other people's thoughts, feelings & opinions & respect them & their right to have & share them but sometimes you need to call a spade a spade no matter how tactful, diplomatic & euphemistic you like to be. I think the right position in this argument is slap, bang in the middle. I respect everyone for who they are & the right for them to be able to be seen for the person who they are. I disagree with the P.C. brigade's attempt to rewrite history by rewriting old books & songs & pulling down of old statues & the fact that people have the right to have gender reassignment surgery on the N.H.S. when cancer patients & those needing cataract surgery & hip & knee replacements don't always get treatment as there's a lack of money & the fact that very young children are able to have gender reassignment surgery when they're still at an impressionable age & might regret having it later on in life when they're more developed. Children shouldn't be expected to fulfil stereotypical roles & forced to wear clothes fitting their biological gender but surgery is a big thing & a big decision that they're not ready for at such a young age no matter how intelligent & mature they may seem. Referring to your video, I would feel embarrassed being referred to as a person with a bust. I've suffered from sexual harassment in 1 of the places I worked because I was top-heavy so would rather be known as a lady. It took me all my time to get labelled for other things by people of the opposite gender like my hair/voice or intellect instead. I agree that we shouldn't give people a victim mentality or provoke people's victim mentalities but we can only do so much to help. People have to help themselves. I got bullied on & off all my life, at school, at home, going to & from school & in the workplace because I'm different, 1 eye works harder than the other so I don't always read things right as I can't always see things properly & this has affected my co-ordination which in the past has sometimes made people think I was slack when I wasn't or on the other end of the scale I got ridiculously high marks in certain subjects so was picked on & could do the manager's job better than her so she didn't like it & set me up. I used to be really good at arguments & debates but now I'm just sick of it so no good. I did/do still have at times a victim mentality but have had to work hard to get over it. I'm over-conscientious at times. I've suffered anxiety & depression at times because of it but I attended self-esteem, confidence building & assertiveness courses & I'm getting over the victim mentality but it's not easy especially reminding myself of my rights & asserting them. Does that mean I need wrapping up in cotton wool? No, though I prefer to be called someone with emotional difficulties than mentally ill which has the stigma attached of being seen as crazy whereas only some mentally ill people are off their heads which can be untrue as some of the most intelligent people I know have emotional difficulties. I don't like smarmy people. I prefer the truth & can unpack euphemistic language.

Thank you for your support of my views, and also for your great honesty about your own struggles. I do think honesty leads us all to greater empathy, which is the basic crux of my position. I don't agree that everything you site is a critical issue or a consequence of PC-ness, but I respect your points. I do not trade in euphemism, which I have tried to emphasize before. I only look to language that people prefer for self-identification and try to respect it. You have said it would embarrass you if your "bust" was referred to, and yet you, as I, do have one. Now you are sanctioning language, do you see my point? I don't think anyone here is in favor of deeply derogatory language or openly offending people. But, as I see it, those who are wary of PC culture are afraid that something beyond their control is being taken away. I just don't see that it is. What are the real chances that sex change operations are going to preempt cancer treatment in the NHS? Seriously. However, there is a cultural shift towards acceptance of those who are "different," for any number of reasons, and, by your own remarks, I don't see how you would have a problem with that. Buried in all of this is some notion of Affirmative Action, as we call it in the US. I think a lot of the resentment and disagreement comes over this. I would say it's a different conversation, even though I see it hugely conflated here.

 

[Horsa]

Thank you for your support of my views, and also for your great honesty about your own struggles. I do think honesty leads us all to greater empathy, which is the basic crux of my position. I don't agree that everything you site is a critical issue or a consequence of PC-ness, but I respect your points. I do not trade in euphemism, which I have tried to emphasize before. I only look to language that people prefer for self-identification and try to respect it. You have said it would embarrass you if your "bust" was referred to, and yet you, as I, do have one. Now you are sanctioning language, do you see my point? I don't think anyone here is in favor of deeply derogatory language or openly offending people. But, as I see it, those who are wary of PC culture are afraid that something beyond their control is being taken away. I just don't see that it is. What are the real chances that sex change operations are going to preempt cancer treatment in the NHS? Seriously. However, there is a cultural shift towards acceptance of those who are "different," for any number of reasons, and, by your own remarks, I don't see how you would have a problem with that. Buried in all of this is some notion of Affirmative Action, as we call it in the US. I think a lot of the resentment and disagreement comes over this. I would say it's a different conversation, even though I see it hugely conflated here.

You're welcome. I disagreed with your post a few days ago saying only Mr. Z on here understood you on here because who knows what other people really understand or could really understand? Are there reasons why people don't understand you? Have they got a lot on their mind at that present time? Are they very busy doing lots of other things? Are they nervous or flustered? Are they having a bad day? What people understand & what people are really capable of understanding is often 2 different things as are what something says & what other people interpret these statements. I guess in this train of thought we have to ask the questions "what exactly constitutes intelligence & what exactly constitute knowledge?" I think that everyone understands you but wants to take a different view or don't care to show you that they understand you. That's also a factor in whether people appear to understand others or not. Language like you suggested is a social construction as is political correctness & though words have only a few meanings their meanings are interpreted differently by different people at different times. For example, there are some books I read differently every time I read them. That's not because I can't read but because I'm constantly learning and my reading is influenced by my changing interpretations of the story or facts depicted in the book. It's the same for everyone. Most sentences can be ambiguous. I also knew what it was like to feel like no one listens to or understands you so thought I'd show understanding though I do think you were throwing a paddy once or twice which I can also understand. We all go off on 1 at times. Not everything I said was relevant, I agree but I was a bit nervous as to how my comments were taken & have a tendency to change subject + I'm used to multi-tasking so am used to going from 1 subject to another & another & back again. I recall you saying you're not euphemistic. I try to be euphemistic about things but am realistic too. I try to respect how people classify themselves but will tell them the truth albeit euphemistically. I see your point. Most of the time we don't have to mention people's race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. I'm just afraid overly P.C. culture would rewrite history. I embrace P.C. to a point. The N.H.S. is having to ration services & make cutbacks as there isn't enough money for it to operate as usual. Some heart transplants have been cancelled or delayed as have some cancer treatments & some cataract surgery & hip & knee replacement surgery has been cancelled or delayed while some people who have chosen to change gender have had their ops on the N.H.S. That is what I'm talking about. Though I could also say that about certain people allowed breast enlargements on the N.H.S. if their bust size is getting them down emotionally. I'd think the money would go to help the people who need it most 1st which is heart, cancer, cataract, hip & knee. I was also different because although I was born & have lived in England all my life, genealogically I'm mainly Scots/Irish & have nearly always had Scots/Irish hair which is very thick & curly. A lot of the people I went to school & work with picked on me because my hair was much thicker & curlier than theirs. I never felt I fitted in until I went to Scotland then I felt at home for the 1st time. I never felt English but had to classify myself as English until in High School when I could classify myself as British. I also told you a bit about my background because sometimes it helps to understand people's bias & why they have that particular bias.

 

[Moxie]

It's very kind of you to think that people disagree with me because they have a lot on their mind or are having a bad day. I don't think it's that, though it can sort of seem so.

 

[Moxie]

@britbox: Speaking of the NFL, how come you've never come after me for my undying support of the Washington Redskins? That should have been an obvious softball.

 

[britbox]

@britbox: Speaking of the NFL, how come you've never come after me for my undying support of the Washington Redskins? That should have been an obvious softball.

Hehe, I was waiting for the name to be changed to the Washington Presidents.... then I remembered who was in the white house

 

[Moxie]

Hehe, I was waiting for the name to be changed to the Washington Presidents.... then I remembered who was in the white house

I believe Trump has suggested the Nambia Redskins. Surely that would make everyone happy.

 

[britbox]

I believe Trump has suggested the Nambia Redskins. Surely that would make everyone happy.

I'm sure you noticed Trump caused quite a stir in the NFL today. He'd be well advised to stay out of sport.

 

[Moxie]

I'm sure you noticed Trump caused quite a stir in the NFL today. He'd be well advised to stay out of sport.

Yes, and if only he'd stay out of North Korea, as well. But messing with American football is a bit of rubber meets the road, as far as loyalties are concerned. It could get interesting. Actually, it was pretty interesting just today.

 

[Moxie]

@mrzz : Don't worry. Just because we were joking for a few posts doesn't mean that we're polluting the Serious PC Thread. I can easily swing this to on-topic at the flip of a switch to sanctimoniousness. And the Silly PC thread is still intact to make fun of folks like me.