Serious PC thread

[mrzz]

et us give a chance to its supporters to make their stand, and say what PC culture is really about after all

Well, @Moxie, I know you don't like answers to quoted parts of your text -- I like it, it helps people like me who can not organize themselves -- so I start quoting myself. There are two threads as I felt that centralizing the discussion in the other one was unfair to the people who liked PC. I guess that there are more around here, but, yes, generally it is only you who stands up and fight.

On your first paragraph, you touch a key point, "to respect how people want to be identified". It is a valid point, and believe me I know that. I am collaborating on a book with another author who has two X chromosomes, but somewhere down the road started to identify as "neutral". The person actually changed hiers (hehehehe) name, and as I care about that person I always make sure I address hiemr the "right" way.

However, as my paragraph above shows, it is not easy to do that. Not only language is not completely able to handle it yet, putting it bluntly sometimes people change their minds -- so there is always the little doubt about which term should I use "now" -- in some cases this is not an issue, but in other is. And sometimes you simply slip -- in the case I am referring to, I saw that person grow up as a girl, so I naturally think about hierm as "she".

So my point is: people do not control how people refer to them. This is the first thing you learn when you start to interact socially, and even if I agree with you that the intention to not to hurt each other's feelings is good, I cannot be sure -- and I guess no one can be -- that trying to give this kind of control to everyone, or every group, is actually good on the long run.

About the uniforms. I get your point -- maybe I did not express myself well in the first post. I see the problem in telling some kids "no, you cannot use that because it is for girls/boys". I just don't see how eliminating clothes for girls and boys would address this issue. The fact that I don't agree with the solution given does not mean I fail to recognize the existence of the issue. (but, yes, we did not get the first part of the radio conversation so we're just speculating).

Answering your questions on the next paragraph, yes, I am a white male (German blood mother, Italian father). And I grew up and always have been in the middle class, so, yes, I fall in the category you suspected. I do not object that some labels are used as tools to put minorities at disadvantage. Some terms are really offensive. But you know that are far too many excesses. Also, some groups simply try to assert some objective meanings to some words that are simply no the case (the examples I know better are in Portuguese, unfortunately. This is a longer discussion and I would love to come back to it with more time).

Now to the last question, which @Murat Baslamisli answered in a straightforward way (which in general I agree with). I would only personally add that I want to be less offensive as long as it is honest. If it is just an innocuous choice of words for me, fine, I will happily chose the preferred term. But if to do that I need to somehow lie to myself and/or to others, then, no, it is not a good thing and (in this case) I agree 100% with Murat.

 

[Moxie]

I do not object that some labels are used as tools to put minorities at disadvantage. Some terms are really offensive.

I appreciate your nuanced, forthright, and considered response, @mrzz. Did you intend the "not" in your above quote? Because that would confuse me a bit. In any case, I think the pro-PC and anti-PC camps have rather different objectives. Or, perhaps, I think that the anti-PC people seem to think that someone is taking something away from them, which I don't really see as ever happening. The pro-PC language position is about asking people to think about the words they use. In the US, it basically started with African Americans deciding how they would prefer to be referred to, and the women's movement asking that the default "-man" at the end of nouns be changed to "-person," which I think was successful and relatively painless. (I.e., "African-American" not "negro" or "colored," and "chairperson" not "chairman," etc.) In many ways, getting all of that sorted can give us more freedom to be playful and loose with language. I have no inhibition about saying "I'm just the man for that job," in a joking way at work, because I am less demeaned by virtue of other changes in the language. Many inequalities are far from perfectly evened out, but the way we speak more respectfully of people does help, imo.

Transgender poses particular linguistic problems, (as well as bathroom issues, which I think people here have gone crazy over, unnecessarily,) though it tends to get solved with "they," here. (I'd be very interested in the Portuguese words you mentioned, and perhaps you'll send me a PM about it sometime. I can read Portuguese.) I've always said that PC can go too far, be really irritating and sanctimonious, and it doesn't help the cause. I'll give you an example, which is almost suited to the PC BS thread, but is rather too earnest for it: A friend of mine who is highly placed in government in large US city was taking a meeting with 2 transgender people who were moving to her city to start a business. My friend is an out-Lesbian, married to a college roommate of mine, very progressive. When calling them into her office she said, "Come on in, gals!" They immediately took offense and sniffed, "We prefer 'they.'" So unnecessarily confrontational against a person who was obviously on their side and open to them. It was rude. It could so easily have been solved once they'd gotten into the conversation with an "oh, by the way...."

So, of course people can't completely control how they are referred to by others. But, in a civil society, I don't think anyone is wrong to ask for empathy and consideration. You've basically said, as did the caller in that video, that you're not interested in offending people, and you don't so much mind making accommodation. It seems to me that what you object to about the notion of PC is a theoretical that never comes to be. You say you just want to be able to be honest. What would prevent that, in any PC worldview?

 

[Moxie]

Can I answer the last question? NO...I don't want to be less offensive and no it is not a good thing. Calling things as they really are is a good thing. Biology is a good thing. Science is a good thing. Watered down speech designed to conceal agendas is not a good thing.
I am white. I do not care about the group I belong to because I am an individual. I believe in individualism. PC is a baby of collectivism. I despise collectivism . I despise social justice. It is an oxymoron. There is ONLY individual justice. One cannot be guilty or innocent because of the group they belong to or identify as.
It is really simple Moxie. If you can show me ONE issue that the PC movement solved (not masked, really, actually SOLVED) then I will join you in your movement . Tell me one issue that is all good now because the language we use is pussified.

You have made a bold statement of intent, @Murat Baslamisli, and it says something that you think someone is trying to "pussify" the language. You don't believe in social justice. But you must believe in the march of history towards rectifying some kinds of social Injustices, can you not? I don't know where you live, but in the US, justice has not always been fair and blind to race, sex and other issues, for those who are not white and male, which I think you've just said you are. It's rather easy to stand at that place and require other people to be responsible for themselves, and not look at how they've been hard done-by because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation or their gender. I gave some good examples as to how PC language has been adopted in the US and been helpful in my above to Mrzz. If your requisite for buying the idea is that it actually have completely solved inequities in society, I think you're asking too much of a difficult problem, but you might consider the worth of it, based on some movement in the right direction. I hope that will move you to a slightly more moderate opinion about it.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You have made a bold statement of intent, @Murat Baslamisli, and it says something that you think someone is trying to "pussify" the language. You don't believe in social justice. But you must believe in the march of history towards rectifying some kinds of social Injustices, can you not? I don't know where you live, but in the US, justice has not always been fair and blind to race, sex and other issues, for those who are not white and male, which I think you've just said you are. It's rather easy to stand at that place and require other people to be responsible for themselves, and not look at how they've been hard done-by because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation or their gender. I gave some good examples as to how PC language has been adopted in the US and been helpful in my above to Mrzz. If your requisite for buying the idea is that it actually have completely solved inequities in society, I think you're asking too much of a difficult problem, but you might consider the worth of it, based on some movement in the right direction. I hope that will move you to a slightly more moderate opinion about it.

Justice can only be individual. You and I , we both want equal justice, but it cannot be based on color, creed, religion, identity. A person cannot be innocent or guilty depending on those things. Social justice warriors want certain groups of people to be always innocent and others always guilty. That cannot happen.
Your examples about PC language being helpful in certain situations...What do you think the state of race relations is in the USA today, now that nobody is calling the black people the N word (except themselves) ? Why is there a need for an organization called BLM? PC language does not even remotely come close to solve real deep issues. It masks it, pussifies it, robs the issue of its true essence, leaves people with a false sense of having achieved something when nothing of that sort happened. It is sad really. Problems are only solved when they are openly identified first. PC language does not permit that. Little Timmy is slow . Nothing wrong with that. Some kids are. But when you call him "minimally exceptional" you have bullshitted his parents into believing his condition has changed once you named it something else. He is still slow.

Listen, I don't go out of my way to offend people. I said this before, I will repeat. I am only responsible for what I say, not how someone else understands it. I KNOW what I mean. And right now I am tired and going to bed. This 7 day work weeks are killing me ...

 

[Moxie]

I still think you are extravagantly un-empathetic to the plight of those not as privileged as yourself. Do you actually think that everyone starts from an even playing field? I don't, and so yes, I think there is a need for Black Lives Matter. And I do think that there are positives to PC language, but I won't reiterate them again to you, because you either do not read or will not. I don't know where you got this "Tommy is slow" business, but it's really another window into your inability to have empathy. "Slow" for kids really isn't a thing. Identifying their learning disabilities is. Are you really that mean? Or just bull-headed and committed to your position?

 

[mrzz]

Moxie, your post is long, a lot of important issues, so I need to quote some parts:

Did you intend the "not" in your above quote?

Yes, I intended the "not". Obviously in the great political war which characterizes the world (or "struggle", to use a Marxist term -- just to annoy a few readers) groups will try to diminish others by use of language, be it intentional or out of pure hatred. So, some terms are offensive. But it is one thing to admit that a few terms are really offensive and other to control the language, and thus the narrative, and try to dictate how virtually everything is referred too. This is a giant political weapon and it is simply being used, not out of the good hearts of a few. There are dozens of absurd examples: "undocumented immigrants" is a good one. Most of those are people who consciously entered a country avoiding the laws of that same country, so they are illegal. I may sympathize with their situation, I may not agree with the policies that made them do what they did, but they are illegal. Using a softer term do not change their situation, and, if it does, it would be through what is ultimately a lie. And lies have short legs. Obviously, groups who have interest on the flow of immigrants (that is, cheap work force) probably are strong supporters of the "undocumented immigrants" notion.

Or, perhaps, I think that the anti-PC people seem to think that someone is taking something away from them, which I don't really see as ever happening.

It takes away intellectual freedom. Sorry, I don't know how you cannot see this. Just as in the example you cited, people are not kindly asked to rethink their words. Someone will scream to your face, someone will tell the world you are a bigot, a racist or a rapist. I cannot even remember one single occasion where some PC person addressed me in a polite way. You know I try to be polite most of the time, but right now my instant response to such people is a very calm "fuck you".

In the US, it basically started with African Americans deciding how they would prefer to be referred to, and the women's movement asking that the default "-man" at the end of nouns be changed to "-person," which I think was successful and relatively painless. (I.e., "African-American" not "negro" or "colored," and "chairperson" not "chairman," etc.)

First, honest question: In US, do the majority of black people (I assume this word is not offensive, I think it is a beautiful word, I believe Ali, after all) really prefer African-American? We have "Afro-Brasileiro" here in Brazil too, but most blacks prefer the word "Negro" (is completely non-offensive in Portuguese). In fact, there is national holiday called "Black Consciousness Days" (Dia da Consiciência Negra). The main black political group is the "Movimento Negro". So I am assuming "Negro" in Portuguese translates to "Black" in English. Most times I see a black person on US television, I see her referring to herself as "black".

I have no problem with "spokesperson", as I would not have with using "spokeswoman" and "spokesman" in parallel. In this case, it is just the matter of being objective (a woman cannot be a "spokesman"). It is a sign of the times. Two centuries ago you probably just had "spokesmen". Times have changed, and language needs to follow. You are basically saying that the change in language induces, or helps to induce, changes in social behavior. Not only I doubt the extent of it, I do not like the idea, because I believe changes must be made consciously, properly addressed and out in the open.

But, in a civil society, I don't think anyone is wrong to ask for empathy and consideration.

Maybe not wrong, but almost surely naive. Look, I will love to see a world full of empathy. I just don't believe you get that so easily, and specially if you demand it, or introduce it as a kind of social norm. We had this discussion before, if someone is being nice just because the social norm tell hims to be, I don't think he is being really nice at all. It just makes the world look like a big department store were the employees are paid to smile at you.

You say you just want to be able to be honest. What would prevent that, in any PC worldview?

We just keep circling around this issue, which is ultimately a matter of opinion. Maybe, because you identify to the values of PCness, you do not feel the way we do (I don't know exactly who are "we", but ok), that is, you don't have the feeling that others are trying to control your language, your beliefs, your likes and even your dislikes. Well, problem is that it is not merely a feeling, as I said above you do get confronted and "corrected" (and labeled) a lot of times. And not in a civilized way.

I know now it became kind of "fashionable" to be un-PC. But there are a lot of people who are not racists, not bigots, not haters, who happen to have a honest rejection of the PC culture. Maybe it is time for the good hearted PC people (a very small bunch, IMO) to start asking themselves why.

Holy shit.. it is late. Need to sleep, should revise better the text but too sleepy already.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, your post is long, a lot of important issues, so I need to quote some parts:

Yes, I intended the "not". Obviously in the great political war which characterizes the world (or "struggle", to use a Marxist term -- just to annoy a few readers) groups will try to diminish others by use of language, be it intentional or out of pure hatred. So, some terms are offensive. But it is one thing to admit that a few terms are really offensive and other to control the language, and thus the narrative, and try to dictate how virtually everything is referred too. This is a giant political weapon and it is simply being used, not out of the good hearts of a few. There are dozens of absurd examples: "undocumented immigrants" is a good one. Most of those are people who consciously entered a country avoiding the laws of that same country, so they are illegal. I may sympathize with their situation, I may not agree with the policies that made them do what they did, but they are illegal. Using a softer term do not change their situation, and, if it does, it would be through what is ultimately a lie. And lies have short legs. Obviously, groups who have interest on the flow of immigrants (that is, cheap work force) probably are strong supporters of the "undocumented immigrants" notion.

It takes away intellectual freedom. Sorry, I don't know how you cannot see this. Just as in the example you cited, people are not kindly asked to rethink their words. Someone will scream to your face, someone will tell the world you are a bigot, a racist or a rapist. I cannot even remember one single occasion where some PC person addressed me in a polite way. You know I try to be polite most of the time, but right now my instant response to such people is a very calm "fuck you".

First, honest question: In US, do the majority of black people (I assume this word is not offensive, I think it is a beautiful word, I believe Ali, after all) really prefer African-American? We have "Afro-Brasileiro" here in Brazil too, but most blacks prefer the word "Negro" (is completely non-offensive in Portuguese). In fact, there is national holiday called "Black Consciousness Days" (Dia da Consiciência Negra). The main black political group is the "Movimento Negro". So I am assuming "Negro" in Portuguese translates to "Black" in English. Most times I see a black person on US television, I see her referring to herself as "black".

I have no problem with "spokesperson", as I would not have with using "spokeswoman" and "spokesman" in parallel. In this case, it is just the matter of being objective (a woman cannot be a "spokesman"). It is a sign of the times. Two centuries ago you probably just had "spokesmen". Times have changed, and language needs to follow. You are basically saying that the change in language induces, or helps to induce, changes in social behavior. Not only I doubt the extent of it, I do not like the idea, because I believe changes must be made consciously, properly addressed and out in the open.

Maybe not wrong, but almost surely naive. Look, I will love to see a world full of empathy. I just don't believe you get that so easily, and specially if you demand it, or introduce it as a kind of social norm. We had this discussion before, if someone is being nice just because the social norm tell hims to be, I don't think he is being really nice at all. It just makes the world look like a big department store were the employees are paid to smile at you.

We just keep circling around this issue, which is ultimately a matter of opinion. Maybe, because you identify to the values of PCness, you do not feel the way we do (I don't know exactly who are "we", but ok), that is, you don't have the feeling that others are trying to control your language, your beliefs, your likes and even your dislikes. Well, problem is that it is not merely a feeling, as I said above you do get confronted and "corrected" (and labeled) a lot of times. And not in a civilized way.

I know now it became kind of "fashionable" to be un-PC. But there are a lot of people who are not racists, not bigots, not haters, who happen to have a honest rejection of the PC culture. Maybe it is time for the good hearted PC people (a very small bunch, IMO) to start asking themselves why.

Holy shit.. it is late. Need to sleep, should revise better the text but too sleepy already.

I'm sorry that you can't really appreciate what I say as earnest opinion and not some Orwellian double-speak, or Marxist propaganda. I thought you were hearing me, but you are not. You even said, above, that, "I cannot even remember one single occasion where some PC person addressed me in a polite way." Doesn't that include me? What's that about? I haven't "demanded" anything from you (as you insinuate that we do, above,) only asked for open discourse.

A few points to your above: Your understanding, as a native speaker of Portuguese, is completely different from a US speaker of English one as to "negro." Don't pander to me, I know what it means in the Latinate, but that doesn't make it more palatable to the American ear. However, we have no problem with "Black." (Note: Black Lives Matter. Again: how people choose to identify.)

"Spokesman" wasn't changed into "spokesperson" 2 centuries ago, but maybe 4 decades ago. That may not matter to you, as a not-so-fine difference of a couple a 16 decades, but it does to me.

You come from a place where it is very easy to complain that your intellectual freedom is being somehow infringed. What a load of privileged bullshit. No one is taking anything away from you, not your maleness, nor your whiteness, nor your right to speak as you like. Some people ask for a small amount of linguistic empathy. You gave a tad, but mostly you retreat into your righteousness, even from a position of advantage. Your world view is more cynical than mine. I believe that people can be nice because the prefer to be that way, not because they're paid to or forced to. It's just that sometimes they need a little enlightenment.

I've enjoyed the conversation, but now I'm done. You're the only one here with the smallest understanding of where I'm coming from, and it turns out even that is puny. I have better places, and more productive ones, to debate the topic. I'll be keeping it to tennis here.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I still think you are extravagantly un-empathetic to the plight of those not as privileged as yourself. Do you actually think that everyone starts from an even playing field? I don't, and so yes, I think there is a need for Black Lives Matter. And I do think that there are positives to PC language, but I won't reiterate them again to you, because you either do not read or will not. I don't know where you got this "Tommy is slow" business, but it's really another window into your inability to have empathy. "Slow" for kids really isn't a thing. Identifying their learning disabilities is. Are you really that mean? Or just bull-headed and committed to your position?

I am really nice, I have no mean bone in my body Ask my wife ! It is just that I have a very sensitive bullshit detector and I recognize it right away.
You are actually proving my point when you say there is a need for BLM. I do too. MY question to you was , WHY do we need it , since we do not use the N word anymore? Get it? Please say you do ! Because calling a group of people by this name or that has got nothing to do with the REAL issues that exist between blacks and whites in the USA. THAT is my point.
And you are not getting the "slow kid" point either. They always existed and as a society we always do our best to identify and help them. But changing the name of their situation does nothing to help the actual situation but kind of mask what is happening and make parents and everyone feel better about themselves. I have huge empathy for them. My wife tells me that is why I have sleeping issues. I worry too much about others
Listen, every issue you are sensitive to, so am I . The difference is, I want the issue clearly presented to me with no bullshit and sugarcoating . In this PC age, issues are watered down to give the public that they are actually being worked on when they are not and people are patting each other on the back when they don't deserve to.

 

[Nekro]

What a joke, we need BLM!!!! lol the only people who need BLM are the jews.... It's a tool for hate mongering.... ofc Soros is the biggest sponsor.... BLM is very bad for Black people, it's making black people more hated by all other ethnic groups but at the same time it won't solve any problems as Murat said....

Can you mention anything good BLM have ever done? Cause all i've been hearing is that they caused violence at Trump's campaign, they caused mess here, they made mess there.... They are a hate group, plain and simple.... They hate even themselves lol, Serena Williams, their big supporter just made a kid with a white guy... lol.... A self-respecting afro-american would be just at peace making black children with black people, Serena is obviously not comfy in her skin.....

About PC: It's a jewish tool too to cause conflicts and create tension, and to distract the masses while the jews are skinning the average people alive.....

The noose is tightening around the neck of the middle class too... life is getting more expensive, people are losing their homes.... Is there a way out? yeah, vote for Trump... oh screw it, Trump's whole business circle is jewish, his ex-wife is jewish, his daughter, son in law, daughter in law are jewish, whitie middle, lower, all kinds of classes screwed again, blackies can hope for nothing good either, ofc they will sponsor black hate groups , their leaders will get a huge sums but for average black people only the sucking will remain....

lol Trump is a white supremacist and a sympathizer with the KKK...... Since Trump came to power, they took down white statue, they took down Stormfront, the Daily Stormer, and now the Americans' jew puppets in Ukraine are making moves to do ethnic cleansing against eartern-european minorities in Ukraine.... Trump is so good for white people, just lol!!!!!!

There's no conspiracy theory here, it's a clear case, everybody can see it, American jewish leadership giving commands to Ukrainian jews.... Eastern European countries already preparing the sanctions against Ukraine.... Who will suffer? Only the average Ukrainian people because of the sanctions and the minorities in Ukraine... The puppets get fat on American money and the money stays in the family, that is the zionists....

Black, white, brown people are suffering everywhere, the jews are living happy, rich and untouchable....

And don't talk to me about racism, jews are an interest group and that's it... as far as their evildoings are concerned... Everybody can become a jew.... Trump became a jew, because that's his mentality... he got involved with the "Russian" jews for money, he married a jewish person, his children married jews, he's now practically a jew, he could have kept Bannon but he replaced him with a jew.... Trump is practically a Jew..... ofc there are jews out there who are not involved in ripping off other people and who just want to make a living with normal work but tbh the tribe's involvement in mafia activity, warmongering and shitstirrery is so well known if i was born a jew i would just ditch it and convert to Christianity and stay far away from them, problem solved....

And I want to show you a case from my country which is a great example of how jews are acting worldwide.....

Migration Aid..... an organization sponsored by Soros, their boss and main activist is Jewish mafia girl Zsohár Zsuzsa (Susan Zsohár)..... Sponsored by a jew, run by a jew, and ofc they ripped millions of Forints off Hungarian citizens, they had no traceable bank account, what they did: they ripped off the host nation while bringing illegal migrants into the country... totally destructive to the host nation.... this Zsohár jewish criminal appeared even in TV programs insulting the people she ripped off, it was something like: "yeah, the migrants will copulate with Hungarian women because Hungarian men are impotent" adding insult to injury, ofc as an alien parasite she's hostile to the host nation she's ripping off.... And there was this cute love story, Zsohár has a Syrian boyfriend, now we can try to decide if it's a Soros sponsored pro migrant propaganda or some private initiative.... Actually lots of Hungarians got pissed at this criminal person and they started attacking her because of her involvement with Soros, she said she did it not because of soros but because of love LMAO!!!!: Zsohár with her alleged Syrian lover:

http://mandiner.hu/cikk/20151203_soros_nem_a_ferfi_zsohar_zsuzsanna_interju_migransok

There's even a cute vid in there........

And the end of the story, she just bolted to Austria with the money she stole from our people... As Borat said: "They take everybody's money, they never give it back......" Ofc, spend that money abroad thief!!!!!

Just as muslims suspected of being involved in criminal activities are deported to arab countries, jews involved in ripoffs and crimes should be deported to Israel.... oh wait, who's gonna do that? Jews are running all the western and lots of the eastern countries too.... so just read up about candidates before voting for them, who are involved with jews and who aren't, ofc in the USA that's very hard to do.....

 

[mrzz]

I'm sorry that you can't really appreciate what I say as earnest opinion and not some Orwellian double-speak, or Marxist propaganda. I thought you were hearing me, but you are not. You even said, above, that, "I cannot even remember one single occasion where some PC person addressed me in a polite way." Doesn't that include me? What's that about? I haven't "demanded" anything from you (as you insinuate that we do, above,) only asked for open discourse.

I meant people who addressed me personally, not here. I considered the idea of explicitly mentioning that you were not included in this comment, but thought it was obvious. I see that it irritated you (and I am sorry for that), and because of it you gave all my post a much more offensive tone that it was supposed to have. Now that I clarified it, if some time you feel like it, read my post again. Reading your reply I feel you miss interpreted me a lot. For example, I wasn't advocating for the use of "negro" in English, just mentioned that it is ok in Portuguese, and asked if "Black" is still ok in English. I know that language evolves.

I never said (at least never meant to say) that "spokesperson" started being used two centuries ago. I said that two centuries ago there was no need for this word. First society changes, then the appropriate words follow.

You can discredit everything I say with just one word: "privilege". Fine, it is useful to know that I sound like that to you. Being pissed of induces some brutal honesty...

Again, if you felt I treated you unfairly, it wasn't my intention. I am very sorry for that. You do address me nicely here and I won't fail to acknowledge that.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Moxie, also I am really curious about this "privilege" thing that you are talking about that I am supposed to have? How did you come up with that? When I opened my shop , one of the first e mails I got was something that went like this " We do not want your kind here or your business, go back to where you came from" and some threats after that. I am guessing the person knew I was born and raised in Turkey, assumed I was a muslim and took it from there. Of course he had no way of knowing that I am a die heart atheist but being white really did not help eh?
The problem is collectivism. If everyone saw and treated each other as an individual, we would have a lot less "labeling " going on...
Carlin, may he rest in peace, said it best "
“I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loath and despise the groups they identify or belong to.”

 

[britbox]

I like Carlin's interpretation of political correctness.... Liberal facism.

 

[britbox]

I still think you are extravagantly un-empathetic to the plight of those not as privileged as yourself. Do you actually think that everyone starts from an even playing field? I don't, and so yes, I think there is a need for Black Lives Matter. And I do think that there are positives to PC language, but I won't reiterate them again to you, because you either do not read or will not. I don't know where you got this "Tommy is slow" business, but it's really another window into your inability to have empathy. "Slow" for kids really isn't a thing. Identifying their learning disabilities is. Are you really that mean? Or just bull-headed and committed to your position?

Empathy and Language are two different things. Political Correctness is obsessed with language to the extent it trumps everything else. You can have empathy and yet if you use the wrong in-vogue words you can be crucified for it.

 

[britbox]

Moxie, also I am really curious about this "privilege" thing that you are talking about that I am supposed to have? How did you come up with that? When I opened my shop , one of the first e mails I got was something that went like this " We do not want your kind here or your business, go back to where you came from" and some threats after that. I am guessing the person knew I was born and raised in Turkey, assumed I was a muslim and took it from there. Of course he had no way of knowing that I am a die heart atheist but being white really did not help eh?
The problem is collectivism. If everyone saw and treated each other as an individual, we would have a lot less "labeling " going on...
Carlin, may he rest in peace, said it best "
“I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loath and despise the groups they identify or belong to.”

 

[Moxie]

Empathy and Language are two different things. Political Correctness is obsessed with language to the extent it trumps everything else. You can have empathy and yet if you use the wrong in-vogue words you can be crucified for it.

There is a connection to language and empathy. If you won't hear what people prefer to use as language to identify themselves, you're not empathizing with them. It's not about "vogue," it's about history. And if you think you get "crucified" for using the wrong ones, I'd say that was a bit of an over-reach, and also whiny. The main difference is how we define "political correctness." You define it as a slap on your hand if you haven't said "mother-may-I." I'd say it is an openness to how people chose to be called. Nothing more. If you find some people high-handed about PC-ness, I have no control over that. I'm not asking you to accept sanctimonious assholes. I've been trying to say that I'm not that person. I've only been trying to describe the basic human kindness towards people who are in the minority and how they chose to identify. If you can't get that, I don't know what. I've already said I'm out of here, but I respected your post and so responded.

 

[Moxie]

I like Carlin's interpretation of political correctness.... Liberal facism.

There is nothing about this Carlin rant that has anything to do with language I object to. And, for what it's worth, it's about 30 years old. That's why it's so moldy and irrelevant to US PC notions now. None of the language that he objects to ever caught on. And he's not addressing any important ones, i.e., racist or sexist terms. If your own culture is so far behind the times, so be it, just please don't use this as an example of the worst of PC as far as the US is concerned. I love Carlin, and his campaign against word police, but in this case, he missed the boat by a wide mark, historically. He was complaining against PC-ness in the US back when it was nascent. He took a notion to its extreme, as a comedian, but it has no relevance now. Things have changed here.

 

[britbox]

There is nothing about this Carlin rant that has anything to do with language I object to. And, for what it's worth, it's about 30 years old. That's why it's so moldy and irrelevant to US PC notions now. None of the language that he objects to ever caught on. And he's not addressing any important ones, i.e., racist or sexist terms. If your own culture is so far behind the times, so be it, just please don't use this as an example of the worst of PC as far as the US is concerned. I love Carlin, and his campaign against word police, but in this case, he missed the boat by a wide mark, historically. He was complaining against PC-ness in the US back when it was nascent. He took a notion to its extreme, as a comedian, but it has no relevance now. Things have changed here.

Didn't you ask the question about people's views of political correctness? I thought that was an offer to listen, not define it yourself and yes, the world is a bigger place than the United States.

There is a connection between language and empathy but it's not a mirror image. You seem to be hinting that you must agree with everything a minority group expresses to have empathy. No you don't... and who actually defines what is acceptable and what isn't? The way I'm seeing it, is that it's often left of centre white folk who think they are being "fair" and respectful and they've made an industry out of it... when the reality is that they are creating huge divisions by continually categorising people and chastising people who don't fall into line with the soviet style "group think". It goes beyond racist and sexist terms... the next wave of this entitled group are burning their countries flags, banning speakers they don't like, unwilling to debate or find middle ground, ripping down historical monuments... it's the child of political correctness.

 

[britbox]

There is a connection to language and empathy. If you won't hear what people prefer to use as language to identify themselves, you're not empathizing with them. It's not about "vogue," it's about history. And if you think you get "crucified" for using the wrong ones, I'd say that was a bit of an over-reach, and also whiny. The main difference is how we define "political correctness." You define it as a slap on your hand if you haven't said "mother-may-I." I'd say it is an openness to how people chose to be called. Nothing more. If you find some people high-handed about PC-ness, I have no control over that. I'm not asking you to accept sanctimonious assholes. I've been trying to say that I'm not that person. I've only been trying to describe the basic human kindness towards people who are in the minority and how they chose to identify. If you can't get that, I don't know what. I've already said I'm out of here, but I respected your post and so responded.

OK, I think you've narrowed this down a lot. I think PC is far more intrusive than just the area you are identifying with.

Anyway, if somebody turns around one day and identifies themself as being of non-binary gender, is your position that everybody else should just identify them in the same way? and how far do you go? Do you change every form to include Non-binary as a gender option?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Not only what is being said is being widely picked, it is also WHO is saying it that is watched too by the PC crowd. If you do not rank high in the victimhood scale, you are not even ALLOWED to say things anymore, no matter how PC it is ! Opinions, no matter how solid, productive and important they may be, are not allowed to be aired if the right person is not airing it. Very sad and dangerous situation.

 

[britbox]

If you do not rank high in the victimhood scale

...and here is the thing... the victimhood scale. Part of the problem is that some people/groups are being told they are victims from the get go, so they grow up with a giant chip on their shoulder... and the worse ones are the entitled left wing whites who are offended on their behalf.

I actually think removing any categorisation to race or gender from any official form would be a better start moving forward rather than creating more and more categories with which to divide people. Yep, you're a human being...next!