Serious PC thread

[Federberg]

Guys, I am following the conversation and cannot participate properly as my time is compromised... and I hate to post with little time, let alone in delicate topics. All in all I lean more to the "trio" (as Federberg put) position, but I see Moxie's points. The thing I guess is key here is to consider two things:

1) Transgender people are a (numeric) minority. They have specific needs/demands that may challenge the norm (by the way "norm" should not be a bad word). How do we address it?

[key aspect in this discussion] 2) Part (quite possibly a very small minority) of the transgender group is not "honest" and use it for multiple dishonest/aggressive/offensive purposes. Once "transitioning" becomes more accepted, more and more dishonest people (which would not be transgender in an "honest" world) will explore the breaches -- that is what dishonest people do. How do we address it?

3) There are a lot of mental disorders related to sexuality. There are transgender people who are completely (how do I say it in English... ) "solved", (I mean, that are OK with their own issues and have dealt with them). Those are two completely different groups which are commonly thrown in the same bucket (even if there might be some soft frontier between them). I actually do not know which one is the largest, but usually "conservatives" just see the first (not the case here though) and "progressives" only see the second.

Not that I think you guys haven't noticed all that but I do feel in the heat of the argument some of those distinctions are being forgotten.

ok Mr Guterres!

Your desire to be the forum diplomat aside, you highlight an issue I have often pondered. It is intriguing to me that gender dysphoria appears to be treated differently from any other mental disorder. I make no judgement about it, and if it's wrong to call it a mental disorder I am open to re-education. I can't say this enough... I'm a libertarian, I pretty much believe that the State/society should minimise it's intrusion into my business, whether social or financial. So whatever anyone wants to be I'm down with it. But no one has ever really explained to me what the difference is between someone asserting they're a unicorn and a bloke having an operation and asserting he is a woman. In both cases, I'm perfectly happy to accommodate, but if the only difference between the two situations is a subjective assessment of sanity then surely those of us who are less progressive are worthy of a bit more respect than being labelled phobic?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You have a lot of anger, Murat. I hear it. You see these things your way. Fair enough. Just a couple of things...I'm pretty sure there really aren't any Communists anymore. The Soviets took care of that issue. Even the Italians, who loved being comfortable Communists gave it up. And let's not pretend the Chinese are. And your example of a guy in the last paragraph? I know he's theoretical. You're putting your own tropes on him as much as you perceive people like I am. And he's exploited by the right as much as disdained by the left, let's not kid ourselves.

In the US, 18% of social studies professors say they are Marxists. The number in Canada is more like 30%. Of all the branches in any universities, only 7% of professors call themselves conservative. So yes, in addition to the Che t shirt wearing idiots, the leftists communists professors actually outnumber a regular (not far right, because they obviously do not have a chance in hell to be in a university and rightfully so) conservative professors. Brings me back to one of my original posts. We are well versed in what to do when people go far right. We have no idea what to do with the far left because that is when things get "emotional".
The guy in the last paragraph is a real guy . He was in an article I read and I do believe there are millions of him. He is just a dude that is not happy being called names because he has not hurt anyone in his life. He is just not progressive enough for some, that's all.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

The problem is sometimes these ideologies and beliefs are incompatible with very existence or, at least, the basic rights of certain groups, and therefore, why should they be tolerated and respected?

Why should I respect a far right ideology if it goes against everything I believe in, and is eating up the rights of so many groups/minorities/etc...?

You should not. But it works both ways. Why should someone accept a far left ideology that led to the deaths of millions of people in Gulags, does not respect the individual, only believes on collectivism, does not value hard work but encourages victimhood mentality, calls you a bigot if you prefer your woman without a dick, makes fun of you for your religious beliefs, divides you with identity politics and values your opinion only if you belong to a certain ethnicity on any given subject and where you fall on the victimhood scale, calls you a transphobe when you mention biological males should not compete with biological women because it is just not fair to the women?
Extremes on both sides are evil if you ask me. The problem is, on the far right, it is clearly defined. You are a racist bigot white supremacist etc. you are out. It is clear. Left has to decide what is the point when they go too far and marginalize those on the far left like it is done on the right.

 

[mrzz]

Your desire to be the forum diplomat aside

Well, touchè to begin with, but in a few cases, my personal life puts me in a privileged position to see both sides (well, I am a white heterosexual male, so I am supposed to be privileged ). But make no mistake about my diplomatic tone, most times I am engaging the discussion. Just the approach is different.

About the question you pose on your post, it is a legitimate one, but there are differences. If you assume that gender is one thing, and sexuality another, and biological sex yet another, than there is no way out of this. Of course, those three things are deeply correlated and sometimes related through cause and effect relations. Maybe the fatal flaw in "extreme progressiveness" is to insist those three things are completely independent things (that's when you fall in the unicorn trap). But this is a long discussion.

 

[britbox]

The problem is sometimes these ideologies and beliefs are incompatible with very existence or, at least, the basic rights of certain groups, and therefore, why should they be tolerated and respected?

Why should I respect a far right ideology if it goes against everything I believe in, and is eating up the rights of so many groups/minorities/etc...?

Nobody is expecting you to attend the Nuremburg rallies BS. There are genuine concerns across the board. Some Centre-left feminists have been attacked and "de-platformed", Pioneers like Martina Navratilova have been attacked... This isn't the "Far-right" by any description. I think Murat made a good point that throwing these kind of labels around like confetti ends up polarising society.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Nobody is expecting you to attend the Nuremburg rallies BS. There are genuine concerns across the board. Some Centre-left feminists have been attacked and "de-platformed", Pioneers like Martina Navratilova have been attacked... This isn't the "Far-right" by any description. I think Murat made a good point that throwing these kind of labels around like confetti ends up polarising society.

I think I just prioritize things differently. There are no arguments from this end that there is an overly PC culture and it seems that on some levels, the far left is setting people up to fail, or at least, hoping they do, so they can jump at every opportunity to put labels. However, this, to me, pales by comparison to hate crimes vs. minorities, gays, Muslims, the alarming increase in domestic terrorism in the US (most of which related to white supremacy), etc...

 

[Federberg]

Moxie, here is something to think about: There is this guy , lives in a small town, maybe a second or third generation farmer, coal miner, something like that. Never had an easy life but does not complain. Some years are good, some years are bad. He goes to his church on Sundays and tries to live a decent life, as far as he knows how. Tries to provide for his family. Works hard. When the far left describes him as having "white privilege" (far left uses this racist term as a blanket statement because far left believes in collectivism, they will never look at an individual's situation) this guy really does not appreciate that. And when the far left calls him a homophobe and a bigot because he tends to think a man and a woman work better when it comes to marriage but to each his own, he is not particularly happy either. He might have voted for union (democrats) before. He is not doing that any more. I believe there are millions of this guy in the US and Canada.

I do think that we need to be cautious about this type of voter. There is this mythos that's built up since 2016 that there's this Obama-Trump voter and if progressives just stopped all that identity politics they would be open to come back again. The data actually doesn't support that. When you look at what happened in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, you see no marked increase in turnout for Trump compared to Romney. What you do see is a significant drop in voter turnout for HRC compared to Obama, and this is most extreme in the African American demographic, but not exclusively there. Just saying...

 

[britbox]

I do think that we need to be cautious about this type of voter. There is this mythos that's built up since 2016 that there's this Obama-Trump voter and if progressives just stopped all that identity politics they would be open to come back again. The data actually doesn't support that. When you look at what happened in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, you see no marked increase in turnout for Trump compared to Romney. What you do see is a significant drop in voter turnout for HRC compared to Obama, and this is most extreme in the African American demographic, but not exclusively there. Just saying...

You can't include Penn in that group. Trump's vote got a significant increase to Romney and Hillary's wasn't that far down. However, I think it's too early to assess the identity politics impact yet.

 

[Federberg]

I think I just prioritize things differently. There are no arguments from this end that there is an overly PC culture and it seems that on some levels, the far left is setting people up to fail, or at least, hoping they do, so they can jump at every opportunity to put labels. However, this, to me, pales by comparison to hate crimes vs. minorities, gays, Muslims, the alarming increase in domestic terrorism in the US (most of which related to white supremacy), etc...

I hear you and broadly agree, but it's worth noting that "owning the Libs" is an extremely popular thing on the right. So as much as those who are more progressive/liberal might tolerate some of the more ridiculous things that groups like "The Squad" might say, they ought to be mindful that there is a negative (for the progressive cause) impact their excesses sometimes engender on the right...

 

[Federberg]

You can't include Penn in that group. Trump's vote got a significant increase to Romney and Hillary's wasn't that far down. However, I think it's too early to assess the identity politics impact yet.

you may well be right...

 

[Federberg]

for nerds.....

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...s-philadelphia-black-voters-stayed-home-costi

 

[britbox]

Here is a hypothetical for you Federberg...

If you had to vote between Corbyn and Trump, which way would you go?

 

[Federberg]

Here is a hypothetical for you Federberg...

If you had to vote between Corbyn and Trump, which way would you go?

 

[Federberg]

this might seem like a cop out mate. But I would vote for neither. I just couldn't!

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

So, an example of total insanity that is being pushed as the new "normal" in the name of progressiveness that we are dealing with here. The question is very simple: Should a woman be forced, by law, to touch a penis she does not want to touch?
https://www.thepostmillennial.com/a...wEdcJ1Mg6H_qgGXbskFn1J7a7iwOuRj-xYFVSpNBKDCZk

 

[Moxie]

So, an example of total insanity that is being pushed as the new "normal" in the name of progressiveness that we are dealing with here. The question is very simple: Should a woman be forced, by law, to touch a penis she does not want to touch?
https://www.thepostmillennial.com/a...wEdcJ1Mg6H_qgGXbskFn1J7a7iwOuRj-xYFVSpNBKDCZk

Let's just look at some of the language in the article you offer: women are being martyred; "unhinged male;" "sick frame of mind." I don't find this a completely dispassionate article. Obviously, the work that women do in salons can be very intimate. This is really a lot more complicated than making a cake for gay weddings, isn't it, @Murat Baslamisli? I get that this is an interesting question, but it still seems a distraction, in the same was as the bathrooms thing is.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Let's just look at some of the language in the article you offer: women are being martyred; "unhinged male;" "sick frame of mind." I don't find this a completely dispassionate article. Obviously, the work that women do in salons can be very intimate. This is really a lot more complicated than making a cake for gay weddings, isn't it, @Murat Baslamisli? I get that this is an interesting question, but it still seems a distraction, in the same was as the bathrooms thing is.

Moxie, this is happening here. Jobs, livelihoods have been lost, people have been labelled transphobes because they are not comfortable waxing a "woman's" balls. Now, read the above sentence that I wrote really slow.... and tell me that in a world science, reason and biology exists, no one should be uttering a sentence like that one. And the only thing you can say about it is that it is an "interesting" question? You do not see the ultimate misogyny of the whole thing? This is a human rights case in Canada. It is not a "distraction". The way this case goes will have huge implications. So, what is your opinion on it? Should you be forced , by law, to touch a penis that you do not want to? Straightforward question.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, this is happening here. Jobs, livelihoods have been lost, people have been labelled transphobes because they are not comfortable waxing a "woman's" balls. Now, read the above sentence that I wrote really slow.... and tell me that in a world science, reason and biology exists, no one should be uttering a sentence like that one. And the only thing you can say about it is that it is an "interesting" question? You do not see the ultimate misogyny of the whole thing? This is a human rights case in Canada. It is not a "distraction". The way this case goes will have huge implications. So, what is your opinion on it? Should you be forced , by law, to touch a penis that you do not want to? Straightforward question.

You're talking about waxing someone's balls, and then you put out there that they have to touch a penis they don't want to. This is like what I said earlier...you guys think that a random penis in the room is a threat to women, no matter who it is attached to. I actually even know straight guys that have had their balls waxed. They cup the penis. I asked. No touching of it is involved. Same with a Brazilian wax for us girls. No one has to touch my clit. It's very discreet and professional. And as to damaging the scrotum...the labia is also very loose skin. It's tricky to make it not painful, but same exercise. Now, I do get why women in the business of waxing might feel put upon if they don't want to wax trans non-op women. As I said, much more complicated that the baking of the cake issue.

There are many issues related to women who work in nail salons, which is generally where waxing happens, at least in the US. They tend to be immigrant women, underpaid, and exposed to toxins daily. I have every empathy, and I'm thrilled that you, as a straight man, are suddenly aware of their plight, but, again, I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong threat.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You're talking about waxing someone's balls, and then you put out there that they have to touch a penis they don't want to. This is like what I said earlier...you guys think that a random penis in the room is a threat to women, no matter who it is attached to. I actually even know straight guys that have had their balls waxed. They cup the penis. I asked. No touching of it is involved. Same with a Brazilian wax for us girls. No one has to touch my clit. It's very discreet and professional. And as to damaging the scrotum...the labia is also very loose skin. It's tricky to make it not painful, but same exercise. Now, I do get why women in the business of waxing might feel put upon if they don't want to wax trans non-op women. As I said, much more complicated that the baking of the cake issue.

There are many issues related to women who work in nail salons, which is generally where waxing happens, at least in the US. They tend to be immigrant women, underpaid, and exposed to toxins daily. I have every empathy, and I'm thrilled that you, as a straight man, are suddenly aware of their plight, but, again, I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong threat.

All I have to say Moxie to you is wow...You have not understood a single thing about the issue at hand and what is at stake and I have a feeling you will never get it. You have become one of those folks that are a slave to an ideology and you do not see anything beyond it. You are still at your "random penis being a threat" argument. You will never get it.
As for me , as a straight man (oh the good old identity politics from the far left) being aware of the plight of these folks...Well, I am an immigrant. I washed public transit busses in a -30 degree wind tunnel as my first job. I have empathy trust me. These women here lost their job and have been called names because a sick mind decided he is a woman. They have all my empathy. I would rather fight for them than the other dude, trust me.

 

[Federberg]

another article regarding this waxing balls thing....

The Spectator is a mildly right of centre magazine... I loved this sentence..."And as we know, criticising trans people is tantamount to blasphemy in the woke era."
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/why-we-cant-ignore-the-case-of-jessica-yaniv/