Serious PC thread

[Murat Baslamisli]

I wonder how Moxie would feel if Trump came out and said he now identifies as a woman and wants to be the first woman president :-D . After all, it is all about how we FEEL, right ? Come to think of it, if Roger did the same thing, he would easily win all the slams until he is 55 or so. Now THAT would put some distance between Rafa and him , no? But wait...Rafa could then say he identifies as Roger and closes the gap in one sentence ! Silly arguments you say? Just look around you. That Texas wrestler , who is a biological male, has been kicking girl's ass for years ! They have no chance ! Those three runners that came first, second and third (they are male runners running as females) TOOK ACTUAL SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES FROM THE GIRLS THAT PRACTICED FOR THE SAME RACE ALL THEIR LIVES BUT NEVER HAD A CHANCE ! There is something for you to be offended about. What do you think? What would you tell those girls if you met them? I am curious. Imagine you are talking to those girls. You look them in the eye and say what? Oh I can feel the inner fight already...As an empowered woman, maybe even a feminist, you tell them you are sorry that happened to them. But as a SJW, you must defend the "girls" with penises, so what do you do. See, I do not have dilemmas like that and I sleep well at night, minus the back pain.
Moxie....far left lives in a world of make believe. Not too different from Matrix. They think being politically correct is about kindness and acceptance. It is not. Maybe 5% of it is. The rest is pushing agendas and controlling people's thoughts. They think feelings trump everything else. They don't . Objective realities of this world do not change.

 

[Moxie]

100%!!! And woe betide any progressive that tells me to feel any different about it!

So my bring gay people into the conversation is beside the point and clouds the issue, but britbox bringing in sexual predators is on the nose?

 

[Moxie]

Women trans-gendering to men appearing in my changing room? I wouldn't give a crap. I wouldn't care if women showed up anyway.

But, that's a different kettle of fish Moxie. We can discuss that more... but first answer my questions.

No, of course you don't care. And neither do I. But I don't see why you think you get to bully me into answering your question. I didn't start this conversation, btw.

 

[Federberg]

So my bring gay people into the conversation is beside the point and clouds the issue, but britbox bringing in sexual predators is on the nose?

sexual predation is part of the issue Moxie, homosexuality is not. Part of the issue with transgenderism is that another sex is being co-opted, but a risk exists. The fact that someone has gender transitioning surgery doesn't remove their natural power. Just look at the MMA fighting issue. Therefore these people have a natural power differential that they won't lose if they "become" women. So britbox is entirely correct to mention that as an issue. I wager that your throwing homosexuality into this debate is probably a tad insulting. As I believe all three of us have stated.... several times... we place no judgement on the lives or desires of trans people, and most certainly not homosexuals. And frankly where gay people are concerned, there is no attempt to impose any reality on others. They want to be accepted for who they are, who they were born as. That is an entirely different thing than some dude with a package suddenly deciding I should call him Sheila, and claiming he has a right to go into the ladies toilet. I'm actually surprised you don't get the difference

 

[britbox]

No, of course you don't care. And neither do I. But I don't see why you think you get to bully me into answering your question. I didn't start this conversation, btw.

I was just trying to get your threshold. So, you have no problem with any man walking into a ladies changing room? What about a refuge for female victims of domestic violence? You might not want to answer this kind of question, but what you seem to be advocating is open to rampant abuse.

 

[britbox]

I wonder how Moxie would feel if Trump came out and said he now identifies as a woman and wants to be the first woman president :-D . After all, it is all about how we FEEL, right ? Come to think of it, if Roger did the same thing, he would easily win all the slams until he is 55 or so. Now THAT would put some distance between Rafa and him , no? But wait...Rafa could then say he identifies as Roger and closes the gap in one sentence ! Silly arguments you say? Just look around you. That Texas wrestler , who is a biological male, has been kicking girl's ass for years ! They have no chance ! Those three runners that came first, second and third (they are male runners running as females) TOOK ACTUAL SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES FROM THE GIRLS THAT PRACTICED FOR THE SAME RACE ALL THEIR LIVES BUT NEVER HAD A CHANCE ! There is something for you to be offended about. What do you think? What would you tell those girls if you met them? I am curious. Imagine you are talking to those girls. You look them in the eye and say what? Oh I can feel the inner fight already...As an empowered woman, maybe even a feminist, you tell them you are sorry that happened to them. But as a SJW, you must defend the "girls" with penises, so what do you do. See, I do not have dilemmas like that and I sleep well at night, minus the back pain.
Moxie....far left lives in a world of make believe. Not too different from Matrix. They think being politically correct is about kindness and acceptance. It is not. Maybe 5% of it is. The rest is pushing agendas and controlling people's thoughts. They think feelings trump everything else. They don't . Objective realities of this world do not change.

The elevation of sensitivity over truth. I think that was Bill Maher's definition, and a good one.

 

[Moxie]

sexual predation is part of the issue Moxie, homosexuality is not. Part of the issue with transgenderism is that another sex is being co-opted, but a risk exists. The fact that someone has gender transitioning surgery doesn't remove their natural power. Just look at the MMA fighting issue. Therefore these people have a natural power differential that they won't lose if they "become" women. So britbox is entirely correct to mention that as an issue. I wager that your throwing homosexuality into this debate is probably a tad insulting. As I believe all three of us have stated.... several times... we place no judgement on the lives or desires of trans people, and most certainly not homosexuals. And frankly where gay people are concerned, there is no attempt to impose any reality on others. They want to be accepted for who they are, who they were born as. That is an entirely different thing than some dude with a package suddenly deciding I should call him Sheila, and claiming he has a right to go into the ladies toilet. I'm actually surprised you don't get the difference

This is the argument I was referring to above. I hear men make it all the time. I have never once heard a woman make it. (Though apparently Mrs. Britbox feels uncomfortable.) My point of bringing up homosexuality was in conversation about what (straight) people get comfortable with over time. And gay people include transgenders in their umbrella of LGBTQ+, so it's not wholly inappropriate. The fact that you go directly and comfortably to equating transsexuality with sexual predation is what I find disturbing. You provided an example of a clearly mentally ill person, so I can see that your worst fears feel confirmed, but I've literally never heard of another example. It's an elaborate way to go about preying on women and girls, you have to admit. And I hope you can admit that what we do hear about men preying on women involves following them home, or into a dark alley, or grabbing them in the subway, or beating up wives and girlfriends, or gaining their confidence as a teacher or religious figure...I could go on, but none of these things involves putting on a dress. If you have no problem with trans people, then that's good. However, I hope you can see that any real thought that wearing a dress and pretending to be trans as covering for sexual predation is outsized compared to the number of real trans people who actually put themselves in a great deal more danger, and put themselves up for ridicule and discrimination to a much larger degree than any benefit gained by the very odd and random would-be rapist in a dress.

 

[Moxie]

I was just trying to get your threshold. So, you have no problem with any man walking into a ladies changing room? What about a refuge for female victims of domestic violence? You might not want to answer this kind of question, but what you seem to be advocating is open to rampant abuse.

You and Federberg have said that I've avoided questions/issues. I don't believe I have. I have been forthright about my own opinions. We're just parsing ideas out here. I don't think it needs to be an issue of left/right, either...I'll address Murat on that. I gave you a very specific example from my own life, which involved me as a teenager, with my mother there, and a man in a dress in the bathroom, and I told you I felt no threat, and my mother felt none for me. And yet you keep throwing hypotheticals at me. You seem to think that a penis in a woman's bathroom/changing room is, by it's very fact, a threat, regardless of the person it is attached to. I know far, far more straight men, who love and desire women, that I'd be perfectly comfortable to be in a bathroom or changing room with, because they're honorable and respectful of women, than I know or have encountered scumbags and predators out there. You can't really say that I've just been lucky, because I do live in NYC. And before you say that I'd change in front of men I trust, as a runner, I also change in front of men I don't know, and feel perfectly comfortable. After races in extreme cold, we're all anxious to get our wet things off, and rip them off as quickly as possible and throw on dry clothes. Everyone keeps their eyes on their own project, by social agreement, I suppose, but that's the point. Most men are not inclined to predation. In all kinds of circumstances, I feel comfortable trusting men and their better instincts. You seem never have been to France, where the bathrooms are often basically co-ed. Private stalls, with a common wash area. We have many of these in NY, as well. We're all in the bathroom together, but it really seems to work.

I think you're reaching for anomalies, which, imo, speaks more to your fears and anxieties than my real-world experience. I am the only woman in this particular conversation, and I'm telling you my real experiences. I'm not "trying" to be PC. I honestly don't feel that discomfort that you are trying to put on it.

We ever just started with pronouns. Let me just ask you this: are you comfortable with transgender people, in general, regardless of how you'd use pronouns? Do you accept that it's a real phenomenon from some people, this feeling of gender dysphoria, and the need to move to the gender they feel connected to, even if it wasn't the one they were born to? Serious question.

 

[britbox]

You and Federberg have said that I've avoided questions/issues. I don't believe I have. I have been forthright about my own opinions. We're just parsing ideas out here. I don't think it needs to be an issue of left/right, either...I'll address Murat on that. I gave you a very specific example from my own life, which involved me as a teenager, with my mother there, and a man in a dress in the bathroom, and I told you I felt no threat, and my mother felt none for me. And yet you keep throwing hypotheticals at me. You seem to think that a penis in a woman's bathroom/changing room is, by it's very fact, a threat, regardless of the person it is attached to. I know far, far more straight men, who love and desire women, that I'd be perfectly comfortable to be in a bathroom or changing room with, because they're honorable and respectful of women, than I know or have encountered scumbags and predators out there. You can't really say that I've just been lucky, because I do live in NYC. And before you say that I'd change in front of men I trust, as a runner, I also change in front of men I don't know, and feel perfectly comfortable. After races in extreme cold, we're all anxious to get our wet things off, and rip them off as quickly as possible and throw on dry clothes. Everyone keeps their eyes on their own project, by social agreement, I suppose, but that's the point. Most men are not inclined to predation. In all kinds of circumstances, I feel comfortable trusting men and their better instincts. You seem never have been to France, where the bathrooms are often basically co-ed. Private stalls, with a common wash area. We have many of these in NY, as well. We're all in the bathroom together, but it really seems to work.

I think you're reaching for anomalies, which, imo, speaks more to your fears and anxieties than my real-world experience. I am the only woman in this particular conversation, and I'm telling you my real experiences. I'm not "trying" to be PC. I honestly don't feel that discomfort that you are trying to put on it.

We ever just started with pronouns. Let me just ask you this: are you comfortable with transgender people, in general, regardless of how you'd use pronouns? Do you accept that it's a real phenomenon from some people, this feeling of gender dysphoria, and the need to move to the gender they feel connected to, even if it wasn't the one they were born to? Serious question.

I personally have no problem with transgender people in general. As Murat said - Live and Let Live. However, if you think my wife is the lone exception in preferring female changing rooms to unisex ones then I think you're mistaken. Just imagining that playing out in schools is almost laughable with a ton of testosterone-charged young males.

I asked what your threshold was for a reason. Because if people can start simply being classed as the opposite sex simply by just saying "I identify as a woman... therefore I am"... then it opens up all sorts of issues. If you want to let that genie out of the bottle, then It will be women who ultimately suffer the worst of the consequences.

 

[Moxie]

I wonder how Moxie would feel if Trump came out and said he now identifies as a woman and wants to be the first woman president :-D . After all, it is all about how we FEEL, right ? Come to think of it, if Roger did the same thing, he would easily win all the slams until he is 55 or so. Now THAT would put some distance between Rafa and him , no? But wait...Rafa could then say he identifies as Roger and closes the gap in one sentence ! Silly arguments you say? Just look around you. That Texas wrestler , who is a biological male, has been kicking girl's ass for years ! They have no chance ! Those three runners that came first, second and third (they are male runners running as females) TOOK ACTUAL SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES FROM THE GIRLS THAT PRACTICED FOR THE SAME RACE ALL THEIR LIVES BUT NEVER HAD A CHANCE ! There is something for you to be offended about. What do you think? What would you tell those girls if you met them? I am curious. Imagine you are talking to those girls. You look them in the eye and say what? Oh I can feel the inner fight already...As an empowered woman, maybe even a feminist, you tell them you are sorry that happened to them. But as a SJW, you must defend the "girls" with penises, so what do you do. See, I do not have dilemmas like that and I sleep well at night, minus the back pain.
Moxie....far left lives in a world of make believe. Not too different from Matrix. They think being politically correct is about kindness and acceptance. It is not. Maybe 5% of it is. The rest is pushing agendas and controlling people's thoughts. They think feelings trump everything else. They don't . Objective realities of this world do not change.

Murat, I know you're on vacation, and I don't want to raise your blood-pressure. I wish you a good, relaxing holiday. That said, firstly I'd like to say that I didn't make this about liberals v. conservatives, or introduce Trump, etc. I am expressing my opinion and my feelings, and I do wish you'd stop lumping me in with some generalized opinions that you don't like coming from the left/far left. I have never pretended to other than a liberal, but I wish you would respect my specific opinions, rather than just painting me with a broad brush, calling me a Social Justice Warrior, and dismissing my arguments, with...yes...silly ones of your own. As to the athletics point, I do think it's interesting and worth examination. These are not things I'm aware of. We can continue this conversation along that vein if you like. But it is kind of a separate conversation.

As to the bolded above, I could say that the far right lives in a world of "make believe," too, for example, on climate change. I'm sad that you think that kindness and acceptance aren't good values...if that's what you're saying. Or I'm also sad that you think that a progressive agenda is trying to control your mind. Clearly you and Federberg and Britbox aren't having it, so that isn't working. What is really left, but openness and kindness? You don't have to be a progressive or a liberal to open your heart to other people's differences, right? You keep saying that something is being shoved down your throat, but I'm not sure what really is? Gay marriage? You don't have to get gay-married. Who makes the cake? Maybe that's a trickier one. (I'm assuming you don't own a bakery, but maybe you do.) If there are 5 bakeries in town, for my gay wedding, I could go to one that is open to my marriage. However, if I live somewhere in the plains of Western Canadan, or the US, and I want a cake, and you are the only bakery in town, and you object to my marriage on religious grounds, that's a tough one, right? Yet, gay marriage is the law of the land. You wouldn't say you couldn't make me a cake because I was Jewish, or Muslim, or Christian would you? Not of your religion? I can see where it feels tricky, but is it, really? If you want to run a business, you are bound by all kinds of laws, which include many about discrimination as to your patrons. You're allowed to hold in your heart that you don't agree with gay marriage, but you have to make the cake, by law. Is your God going to strike you down because you did? Render unto Caesar....In the end, it's just a cake.

 

[Moxie]

I personally have no problem with transgender people in general. As Murat said - Live and Let Live. However, if you think my wife is the lone exception in preferring female changing rooms to unisex ones then I think you're mistaken. Just imagining that playing out in schools is almost laughable with a ton of testosterone-charged young males.

I asked what your threshold was for a reason. Because if people can start simply being classed as the opposite sex simply by just saying "I identify as a woman... therefore I am"... then it opens up all sorts of issues. If you want to let that genie out of the bottle, then It will be women who ultimately suffer the worst of the consequences.

Good lord, changing rooms aren't unisex. They are very by-and-large binary gendered. You really are taking a notion to its farthest extreme. As to the bolded above, I don't think people take lightly the notion that they are not of the gender assigned at birth. I'm not sure what "genie" you thinks gets let out of the bottle, but the notion that "women will suffer the worst of the consequences" is about fear and paranoia on your part. If you think trans women make cis-women uncomfortable, you're just mostly wrong. (Except Mrs. Britbox, obviously.) Likewise, trans men. Women feel most threatened by straight men, who demonstrate straight. Like the ones who denigrate us in the workplace. That's really a huge thing for us, but I don't see you getting all up in arms about that. That's really a lot more common than men in dresses trying to peer up our skirts in the ladies room. You mentioned you have a wife and a sister and a daughter...that's what you should care about. No tranny is likely to abuse them in a bathroom, but plenty of men will undermine them and harass them in the work environment. That is what you should be worried about.

 

[Federberg]

You're funny Moxie. You seem to think that as you're the only woman in this conversation you have the unquestioned right to represent the female viewpoint. The fact is I have heard from several women clear discomfort with the changing room issue, so please don't represent your stance as the norm. Heck I recall a specific situation where Caitlyn Jenner was discussed and whether he was now eligible to use the women's changing room. What I found funny was that so many women in the discussion doubted the sincerity of Caitlyn's transition. A number of people felt that he had been surpassed by the women in his family and wanted to get a piece of the celebrity. I can't say I've ever invested enough time to care, so I have no opinion on the matter, but there we are. You seem to think that trans gender folk are also homosexual, but in a lot of cases they aren't so let's get that straight, perhaps you're the one who needs to learn a bit more about this topic. You persist in trying to characterise our views as fear based, it's obvious and a bit pathetic. But I confess it's amusing that this cartoon view you seem to have makes you think that you can label our reactions and elicit a defensive posture from us. There's a place that one can go to before you get to fear, and that's plain old common sense.

 

[Moxie]

You're funny Moxie. You seem to think that as you're the only woman in this conversation you have the unquestioned right to represent the female viewpoint. The fact is I have heard from several women clear discomfort with the changing room issue, so please don't represent your stance as the norm. Heck I recall a specific situation where Caitlyn Jenner was discussed and whether he was now eligible to use the women's changing room. What I found funny was that so many women in the discussion doubted the sincerity of Caitlyn's transition. A number of people felt that he had been surpassed by the women in his family and wanted to get a piece of the celebrity. I can't say I've ever invested enough time to care, so I have no opinion on the matter, but there we are. You seem to think that trans gender folk are also homosexual, but in a lot of cases they aren't so let's get that straight, perhaps you're the one who needs to learn a bit more about this topic. You persist in trying to characterise our views as fear based, it's obvious and a bit pathetic. But I confess it's amusing that this cartoon view you seem to have makes you think that you can label our reactions and elicit a defensive posture from us. There's a place that one can go to before you get to fear, and that's plain old common sense.

Your response makes me sad in so many ways. Not only do you not read or understand what I've said, you willfully mischaracterize it. I thought I'd made some good points. I also thought that you were generous enough as a person to think about them. Sadly, no. Did I say that I thought trans people were gay? I know you can read better than that. Now it seems to me that you only want to "win" the argument. I thought we were having a conversation, but apparently I was wrong. I am sorely disappointed in you. I see this "Serious PC Thread" is actually just about brushing off all issues that people don't like, feel uncomfortable with, calling them PC BS, and there is no interest in debate. We may as well combine the threads, then. I've said what I think, and it's fallen on deaf ears. The fact that we're still discussing the changing rooms proves that we've lost the plot. And forgive me for speaking as the only woman in this conversation...I actually am. I'm sure you know women who think differently...how convenient. But they're not in this conversation. What about the points that I made as an actual woman in this conversation? No empathy or interest? I was hoping that you might hear what I had to say, but you cannot. I made an effort, but now I'm done.

 

[Federberg]

Your response makes me sad in so many ways. Not only do you not read or understand what I've said, you willfully mischaracterize it. I thought I'd made some good points. I also thought that you were generous enough as a person to think about them. Sadly, no. Did I say that I thought trans people were gay? I know you can read better than that. Now it seems to me that you only want to "win" the argument. I thought we were having a conversation, but apparently I was wrong. I am sorely disappointed in you. I see this "Serious PC Thread" is actually just about brushing off all issues that people don't like, feel uncomfortable with, calling them PC BS, and there is no interest in debate. We may as well combine the threads, then. I've said what I think, and it's fallen on deaf ears. The fact that we're still discussing the changing rooms proves that we've lost the plot. And forgive me for speaking as the only woman in this conversation...I actually am. I'm sure you know women who think differently...how convenient. But they're not in this conversation. What about the points that I made as an actual woman in this conversation? No empathy or interest? I was hoping that you might hear what I had to say, but you cannot. I made an effort, but now I'm done.

It's funny that you accuse me of wilfully mischaracterising your view point. But the only person in this discussion who has attempted to narrate the other's position is you. You have repeatedly claimed that our positions are based on fear. That is your assumption, not our position. And despite our repeatedly rejecting that, you persisted in promoting that view. It's a way of trying to control the narrative, and actually reveals your own intent to "win". Frankly I don't know how anyone wins in this discussion anyway You made some points, I'm not going to presume to assign value to them, but acting as if you're on the side of righteousness is not a great way to persuade others to your point of view.

But I'll respond directly to your experiences as a woman. Sure I can respect that you haven't felt threatened in a changing room situation. I'm glad that's the case. But is your experience determinative? Surely you see that it's not? I note that you've not really confronted the issue that we have raised repeatedly that trans genders have competed as women with rather obvious consequences. So does Navratilova's stance make her trans-phobic? Do you not see that the desire to accommodate the self-perception of trans genders can lead to the displacement of women? It's amazing to me that this concern can just be dismissed as not serious. I am absolutely certain that trans genders will be fully accepted and accommodated in society, we're not there yet, because we all must have an honest discussion about the appropriate gender identifications and treatment, without being accused of prejudice or fear by the self righteous..

 

[brokenshoelace]

so you say, yet I haven't heard it before. But in any case I certainly like being comfortable with what I say

In that case I strongly suggest you research the topics you seem to feel so strongly about.

 

[brokenshoelace]

What you and most of the far left is not understanding is that "live and let live" is what most people, including me, wish for.

The president of the United States is more or less a literal fascist.

 

[brokenshoelace]

No, I'm actually delving into the practicalities of what you're proposing. Since you're asking, my wife was working with a transgender male morphing into a female and felt very uncomfortable about bathroom procedures. But, hey! Not really one of the sisterhood eh?

I'm not unnerved by trans people... that's the common trope fed out by so-called "progressives"... if you don't agree with us, then you're "phobic" or it's "hate speech".

Phobic... means scared of...

You've failed to address any of the questions here Moxie, which is disappointing for you... because I've always regarded you as having bigger balls than many of the males on the forum. You might not appreciate the remark, but it's actually a compliment.

If I had a 10 year old daughter and sent her to get changed after swimming, and some hairy arsed grock in a pair of black speedos follows her into the female changing rooms then yes, it's a problem.

The issue of transgender people is very complicated and anyone willing to characterize it as a black or white thing is full of shit. Even as an extreme liberal myself, I fully concede there are very obvious needs for pause when it comes to even the most rudimentary aspects of accepting the trans community. However, the amount of violence, hate and abuse they receive is no joke, and downplaying that makes for a dangerous wilful ignorance of reality (not suggesting you're doing that).

That said, taking the literal "phobic means scared of" approach is a lazy way out. It's just as lazy as "some of my best friends are black" and "Islam is not a race so I'm not being racist."

If someone hates and discriminates against say, Muslims, but isn't particularly afraid of them (ie he doesn't believe they'll blow him up, he just hates them), are we seriously going to waste our time over technicalities and semantics because of the very literal definition of "Islamophobic"?

Likewise, if someone doesn't believe homosexuals are a scary threat to society that will eventually lead to paedophilia and beastiality (those are legit talking points among homophobes by the way), but they just hates gays nonetheless, are we seriously going to argue he/she's not a homophobe?

 

[Federberg]

In that case I strongly suggest you research the topics you seem to feel so strongly about.

Lol! Are you riding in on a white horse? Welcome to the party, but with the greatest of respect you're making assumptions here

 

[brokenshoelace]

Lol! Are you riding in on a white horse? Welcome to the party, but with the greatest of respect you're making assumptions here

I mean, you literally said you've never heard the term "trans-woman" before. That's shockingly uninformed given the subject at hand. Not being a dick, I'm serious.

 

[Federberg]

I mean, you literally said you've never heard the term "trans-woman" before. That's shockingly uninformed given the subject at hand. Not being a dick, I'm serious.

I think you misunderstood my statement, but I'm happy to clarify. I haven't had it confirmed to me that the correct descriptive for a man who has transitioned to a woman is a trans-woman. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I have also seen/read a woman transitioned to a man being described as a trans-woman as well. People who are trying to be sensitive to the issue but wanting to avoid gender pitfalls often use the descriptive trans-person. I should add that I've listened to lectures by or about trans-genders and the use of the neutral was common and certainly wasn't considered offensive. So it was rather amusing to me for my caution to be used as an attack point