Serious PC thread

[Moxie]

The relevance was related to your mention of "natural allies". It seems that isn't a shoo-in, and can't be taken for granted.

Random. Also, I think you missed my point of the anecdote.

 

[Federberg]

They even edit Only Fools and Horses on BBC re-runs, so Alfie boy doesn't have a chance.

lol! Imagine the amount of work they would have to do on his show! Better yet imagine the same for a show like 'Love thy Neighbour'?

 

[Moxie]

Not if they were born with a penis.

Imagine a scenario where I introduced this trans-person to a male friend of mine, and they were under the impression that they were interacting with a woman? And this trans-person didn't feel the need to let my friend know that they were originally a man. That would be a horrific betrayal of the bro-code as far as I'm concerned.

If you felt the need to tell your friend, that's one thing, but isn't what pronoun you use a different question?

 

[Federberg]

If you felt the need to tell your friend, that's one thing, but isn't what pronoun you use a different question?

well I apply a common sense standard to the scenario. If I told my friend that I was introducing him to a woman and he punches me in the face later because he feels I lied to him then that's a problem

 

[Moxie]

well I apply a common sense standard to the scenario. If I told my friend that I was introducing him to a woman and he punches me in the face later because he feels I lied to him then that's a problem

OK, grampa. I'll go ahead and get off your lawn now.

 

[Federberg]

OK, grampa. I'll go ahead and get off your lawn now.

lol! Not sure where the "grampa" comes from. A heterosexual guy is going to expect his mate introducing him to someone that presents as a woman to warn him if that's not the case. That's just the way it is. I don't see that as old fashioned. That's just being straight forward.

@britbox actually raises another issue that's been topical recently. He mentioned it in the context of Martina Navratilova's comments. But let me be more specific. There have been cases of men who have transitioned to women who have fought in MMA. Not surprisingly they've destroyed real women. That should never have been allowed to happen

 

[Federberg]

by the way, there was also a case of a trans-person. Specifically a dude who still had his business but had breasts (presumably from hormone treatment) who when sentenced to prison elected to be put in a female prison. He ended up raping women in prison. I think this is the link...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ho-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

 

[Moxie]

lol! Not sure where the "grampa" comes from. A heterosexual guy is going to expect his mate introducing him to someone that presents as a woman to warn him if that's not the case. That's just the way it is. I don't see that as old fashioned. That's just being straight forward.

@britbox actually raises another issue that's been topical recently. He mentioned it in the context of Martina Navratilova's comments. But let me be more specific. There have been cases of men who have transitioned to women who have fought in MMA. Not surprisingly they've destroyed real women. That should never have been allowed to happen

I think you misunderstood my post. I said I could see telling your friend, but asked you if you'd use feminine pronouns for a trans woman? You're the one that started the conversation about pronouns & PC.

As to britbox's point, it was about divisiveness in the LGBT+ community. The issue of trans women and women with high T counts in sports is very different, and not really a question of PC, but a larger issue, wouldn't you say? Though I'm willing to discuss.

by the way, there was also a case of a trans-person. Specifically a dude who still had his business but had breasts (presumably from hormone treatment) who when sentenced to prison elected to be put in a female prison. He ended up raping women in prison. I think this is the link...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ho-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

I'm a little surprised by what it says about you that you posted this. Obviously, this is a specific case of a deeply disturbed sexual predator. Surely it can't have escaped your notice that, by-and-large trans women are the victims of violence, not the perpetrators of it. I think we've veered away from the question of PC and into the notion that you have a problem with trans people. That's why I called you "Gramps."

 

[Moxie]

OK, this is a bit of a stretch if you'll ever even watch a little of it, but do give it a try. Contrapoints/Natalie Wynn has won a great following with her humor and intelligence. Here, she specifically addresses pronouns. I hope you'll stick with it as long as you can.

 

[Federberg]

I think you misunderstood my post. I said I could see telling your friend, but asked you if you'd use feminine pronouns for a trans woman? You're the one that started the conversation about pronouns & PC.

now you've completely lost me here

 

[Federberg]

As to britbox's point, it was about divisiveness in the LGBT+ community. The issue of trans women and women with high T counts in sports is very different, and not really a question of PC, but a larger issue, wouldn't you say? Though I'm willing to discuss.

whoa there... please don't include someone like Caster Semenya in this discussion. I think elective gender alterations are a completely different thing. I've also noticed you trying to set definitions... not sure what a trans woman is, I'll respectfully just stick with trans person, it's less confusing. But actually to your point about if it's a pc issue, it clearly is. It seems that a reluctance to acknowledge that a man who has transitioned to a woman still retains a mans strength has caused major problems. Sometimes this identity labelling actually ends up eliminating frank debate. This person who has transitioned still retains the characteristics of their original gender no matter how much they have tried to eliminate it. We have to be honest about it. Failure to do so because of some PC requirement leads to real women getting stomped in sports, the potential for sexual violence etc. The fact that a trans person is more likely to be harmed should not invalidate our responsibility to not give every trans person privileges with the other sex that wasn't their prerogative prior to surgery. Just my view... Caitlyn Jenner shouldn't suddenly be able to walk into a woman's changing room is what I'm saying... If I'm a neanderthal or grampa in your view, I'm ok with that

 

[Moxie]

whoa there... please don't include someone like Caster Semenya in this discussion. I think elective gender alterations are a completely different thing. I've also noticed you trying to set definitions... not sure what a trans woman is, I'll respectfully just stick with trans person, it's less confusing. But actually to your point about if it's a pc issue, it clearly is. It seems that a reluctance to acknowledge that a man who has transitioned to a woman still retains a mans strength has caused major problems. Sometimes this identity labelling actually ends up eliminating frank debate. This person who has transitioned still retains the characteristics of their original gender no matter how much they have tried to eliminate it. We have to be honest about it. Failure to do so because of some PC requirement leads to real women getting stomped in sports, the potential for sexual violence etc. The fact that a trans person is more likely to be harmed should not invalidate our responsibility to not give every trans person privileges with the other sex that wasn't their prerogative prior to surgery. Just my view... Caitlyn Jenner shouldn't suddenly be able to walk into a woman's changing room is what I'm saying... If I'm a neanderthal or grampa in your view, I'm ok with that

I used a term that is common. It's you who's trying to set a definition here...with "trans person." You use words that make you comfortable, as you like.

 

[Federberg]

I used a term that is common. It's you who's trying to set a definition here...with "trans person." You use words that make you comfortable, as you like.

so you say, yet I haven't heard it before. But in any case I certainly like being comfortable with what I say

 

[Moxie]

so you say, yet I haven't heard it before. But in any case I certainly like being comfortable with what I say

Watch the video, you'll hear it.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

The problem is , when the right goes too far, it is usually easy to pinpoint and single out. Like, you are a supremacist for a certain race (usually white) , you are homophobic, you are a Nazi etc...It is easy. The problem with the left is, when they go too far, they sneak it past the society in such subtle ways that before you know it, you are a "grandpa". Like, right now, if I do not want to date a trans woman, I am a bigot. If I say I would rather have my woman without a penis, I am not invited to San Francisco. The far left has gone insane . Just like the far right, they have become slaves to an ideology that they believe actually benefits the society. And of course they will wail on the streets like the morons that they are after Trump gets elected again and blame the racist bigoted homophobic transphobic white men without once looking at the mirror. Of course the sad part is a colossal prick like Trump will get elected once more. And of course the far left will not even entertain the idea that they themselves are the reason for it. End result ? Center left and center right gets screwed once again. Exact same thing happening in Canada too by the way. The middle is afraid to even talk because they get buried by their own side...Sad times.

 

[Moxie]

The problem is , when the right goes too far, it is usually easy to pinpoint and single out. Like, you are a supremacist for a certain race (usually white) , you are homophobic, you are a Nazi etc...It is easy. The problem with the left is, when they go too far, they sneak it past the society in such subtle ways that before you know it, you are a "grandpa". Like, right now, if I do not want to date a trans woman, I am a bigot. If I say I would rather have my woman without a penis, I am not invited to San Francisco. The far left has gone insane . Just like the far right, they have become slaves to an ideology that they believe actually benefits the society. And of course they will wail on the streets like the morons that they are after Trump gets elected again and blame the racist bigoted homophobic transphobic white men without once looking at the mirror. Of course the sad part is a colossal prick like Trump will get elected once more. And of course the far left will not even entertain the idea that they themselves are the reason for it. End result ? Center left and center right gets screwed once again. Exact same thing happening in Canada too by the way. The middle is afraid to even talk because they get buried by their own side...Sad times.

I'm trying to figure out what you're going for here, @Murat Baslamisli. Yes, if you're a supremacist, that really does imply "white." What other options are you looking at? Black supremacy? First Nations/native American supremacy? In what world? So I think we can agree that there is a historical prescident for the notion of white supremacy, and not really for any other kind. And that it has been used specifically to undermine people of color and immigrants. You agree with that?

As to the rest, some of it really does go off the rails: does anyone say you're a bigot if you don't want to date a trans woman? Does anyone exclude you from going to SF for not dating trans people? You really take that too far. I mean, seriously.

So then on top of it, you blame us, the Dems/left for Trump, or your left in Canada. I think this is unfair, and rather outrageous. Trump speaks in specific racist language, polarizes people in my country, and you're trying to put some of this on the voice coming from the left? In what way, really? I understand that there are a lot of people in the middle who feel they are not heard, but they have choices. One is not to pull in with the racists. Another is not to buy into the cult of personality of Trump and his autocratic ways. The Dems at least offer an alternative, and that's why they made big strides in the most recent election here in the US. I think the middle controls the elections, and it is up to them to decide if they're swayed by dog-whistling to their worst instincts, or if they're willing to vote for their own best interests. Laying back and pretending victimhood is childish, and, thb, what got us here, at least in the US. No one is forcing you to date trans people. No one is forcing you to vote for conservatives, or liberals. You have options in this world. Take ownership of your own political views. IMO, those who act like they have no voice are not using it.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I'm trying to figure out what you're going for here, @Murat Baslamisli. Yes, if you're a supremacist, that really does imply "white." What other options are you looking at? Black supremacy? First Nations/native American supremacy? In what world? So I think we can agree that there is a historical prescident for the notion of white supremacy, and not really for any other kind. And that it has been used specifically to undermine people of color and immigrants. You agree with that?

As to the rest, some of it really does go off the rails: does anyone say you're a bigot if you don't want to date a trans woman? Does anyone exclude you from going to SF for not dating trans people? You really take that too far. I mean, seriously.

So then on top of it, you blame us, the Dems/left for Trump, or your left in Canada. I think this is unfair, and rather outrageous. Trump speaks in specific racist language, polarizes people in my country, and you're trying to put some of this on the voice coming from the left? In what way, really? I understand that there are a lot of people in the middle who feel they are not heard, but they have choices. One is not to pull in with the racists. Another is not to buy into the cult of personality of Trump and his autocratic ways. The Dems at least offer an alternative, and that's why they made big strides in the most recent election here in the US. I think the middle controls the elections, and it is up to them to decide if they're swayed by dog-whistling to their worst instincts, or if they're willing to vote for their own best interests. Laying back and pretending victimhood is childish, and, thb, what got us here, at least in the US. No one is forcing you to date trans people. No one is forcing you to vote for conservatives, or liberals. You have options in this world. Take ownership of your own political views. IMO, those who act like they have no voice are not using it.

There are other supremacists than white. A quick google search can help you there. But of course we all use the term generally to mean white and it is the correct way. Not a problem there.
Yes, in Canada, men are called bigots if they do not want to date a woman with a penis. I have probably 50 examples of that . That IS going too far. The San Fran language was to make a point that you are not the model citizen there if you are a hetero white person. After all, you are the product of priviledged white patriarchy. No matter what your circumstances are. Because the far left only understands collectivism, they do not look at the individual. Identity politics is all they know.
Of course I blame the far left in the US and Canada. Because they made ordinary people feel like they are racists and homophobes and bigots. The guy that has the bakery that refused to make a cake for a gay couple is sued and called a bigot and a homophobe. Of course the gay couple could go to any other place that could accomodate them but no, they have to make this public. The baker has a set of religious beliefs that is not hurting anyone but he does not want to be hurt either but he has no right to that. And I am saying this as a fucking atheist that that baker is correct ! No one should be forced to provide a service they are not comfortable with. THAT and probably a million other examples combined make the ordinary middle right people vote for Trump. I am sure there is a 5-10% of real bigoted, racist population as well but I strongly believe most Trump voters are fed up center right people that cannot stand the far left anymore. Trust me, I hate far right as much as the far left...
Left is not offering any alternatives currently unfortunately. You have people like AOC ...where the average IQ of a room decreases by 50 points when she enters it. She actually said that facts do not matter as much as her feelings ! She said that...I heard it.
Left lost its way in the name of progressiveness. I know this because I used to think like them. Not any more. Left use to be for the working folks.They cannot stand the working folks now. They used to be for equality of opportunity, now they are for equality of outcome, which is a deplorable idea. Left used to care for the individual, now they are all about the group identity. Of course that divides people into tribes and tribes always end up fighting. Left used to care about ideas. Now the ideas have value only depending on who is talking about what. I for example, as a straight white male, have no right to an opinion on the black issues or women's issues like abortion. Left does not understand anymore how dangerous that position is. Like, you are not going to accept a cure to ovarian cancer if it is found by a white male doctor? That is how far left has gone nuts. Yesterday, I heard in the news that in San Francisco they were changing names of things like manhole, manpower, anything to do with the word "man" in it. THAT is why people vote for Trump. Intersectionality is why people vote for Trump. I miss the old left without the crazy. It had a role in society.

 

[Moxie]

It's getting late. We can take this up again tomorrow, and I will. I think that if you want to prove "supremacy" movements other than "white," and at least beyond laughable, in terms of effect and affect, that's on you, not on me, so I'd be interested in what you come up with. I also have a really hard problem with your insistence that men in Canada are being forced to date trans women, or they'll be called out as "bigots." I really need some kind of coherent proof here. Toronto and Vancouver are your big liberal cities. Is there really a great raft of men there that are cowering in the face of their non-PC ness because they don't date trans women? Are they being ridden off the rails by their more liberal friends for their taste in women, cis- or not? I have a hard time believing this, knowing both cities pretty well. And if not Toronto and Vancouver, then what...people in Ottawa and Alberta are suffering persecution for not dating trans women or trans men? Somehow I find this implausible. Convince me otherwise, but with examples please, and not just your opinion.

Hasta mañana!

 

[Moxie]

On the high-brow side, I suggest that those of you who are flummoxed by gender-fluidity try reading "Orlando" by Virginia Woolf, or "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides. Both are excellent books.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

My vacation just started and I am hoping not to think about any of this stuff for a week . 7 day weeks and all 12 hour days get to you TTL.