Serious PC thread

[Federberg]

On the high-brow side, I suggest that those of you who are flummoxed by gender-fluidity try reading "Orlando" by Virginia Woolf, or "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides. Both are excellent books.

I'm not sure we were flummoxed by it. Not being willing to call someone who has transitioned from man towards woman a woman is not confusion

 

[Moxie]

I'm not sure we were flummoxed by it. Not being willing to call someone who has transitioned from man towards woman a woman is not confusion

I realize that this whole concept of non-binary sexuality/gender is a difficult thing to wrap our heads around. Some years back, when the issue of trans people was coming up more often, I asked a couple of gay friends over drinks if they got the concept, and they said 'not really,' so that made me feel better about my own confusion. But with time, exposure, reading, and a certain amount of empathy, I find acceptance, even if I don't deeply relate to it. What I'm hearing from you and Murat is a little bit of anger towards it, which I think comes from fear of it. I get that these things are harder on straight men than on straight women. But I'm willing to bet you both have gay male friends, or at least gay men you know and don't feel threatened by. This has been a process, too, for straight men. You made the hypothetical of how to introduce a trans woman to a friend, because of the "bro code." Murat mentioned the notion that he feels forced, in some communities, to be willing to date a trans woman, which is surely not a thing. I would say the chances that either one of you runs into a trans woman in a bar are negligible, but I feel that you're worried you might ever meet a beautiful woman and discover that that person wasn't born "female" on her birth certificate. I doubt this will ever happen. Trans people and their choices are not really a threat to you or your life. So it becomes a question of live and let live. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you'll be able to get the concept, eventually.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I realize that this whole concept of non-binary sexuality/gender is a difficult thing to wrap our heads around. Some years back, when the issue of trans people was coming up more often, I asked a couple of gay friends over drinks if they got the concept, and they said 'not really,' so that made me feel better about my own confusion. But with time, exposure, reading, and a certain amount of empathy, I find acceptance, even if I don't deeply relate to it. What I'm hearing from you and Murat is a little bit of anger towards it, which I think comes from fear of it. I get that these things are harder on straight men than on straight women. But I'm willing to bet you both have gay male friends, or at least gay men you know and don't feel threatened by. This has been a process, too, for straight men. You made the hypothetical of how to introduce a trans woman to a friend, because of the "bro code." Murat mentioned the notion that he feels forced, in some communities, to be willing to date a trans woman, which is surely not a thing. I would say the chances that either one of you runs into a trans woman in a bar are negligible, but I feel that you're worried you might ever meet a beautiful woman and discover that that person wasn't born "female" on her birth certificate. I doubt this will ever happen. Trans people and their choices are not really a threat to you or your life. So it becomes a question of live and let live. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you'll be able to get the concept, eventually.

What you and most of the far left is not understanding is that "live and let live" is what most people, including me, wish for. But what we are getting is stuff being shoved down our throats. That is not live and let live. Forcing a a person to bake a cake for an event he does not want and then labelling him homophobic is not live and let live. Going to another baker that will do what you want would be live and let live. If you cannot understand the difference, no one can make you.
You know, I used to make fun of the far right about their anti scientific positions, like the earth being 6 thousand years old and crap like that. Far left has caught up to the right with their anti biology crap. Sex IS binary. There are two genders, no exceptions to that. You have XX chromosomes or XY. That is it. No amount of cutting genitals or hormone therapy can change that biological fact. Sex is biology. Gender is ideology. Simple as that. That does not mean that I have no sympathy towards folks that have issues with this. I do. I am not the least bit threatened by them. I wish them all the best in life. But if you are delusional enough to think just because you cut your penis and have had some hormone therapy you are now a woman, well, basic biology and chromosomes do not support that notion. Most feminists , even though I disagree with them on a lot of issues, will agree with me on this too. FACTS do not care about your feelings. Far left has a hard time understanding this. And your feelings are being showed down my throat in the name of acceptance and tolerance. That is not live and let live. If you think a concept like gender fluid is scientific, we stop talking right here anyways.
I have zero problems with a blue haired social justice warrior identifying as a unicorn during the day and a monarch butterfly at night, I really don't. THAT is live and let live. But if you want to make me a part of it and force me to treat you as such , then I basically have the right to tell you to fuck right off.

 

[Federberg]

What you and most of the far left is not understanding is that "live and let live" is what most people, including me, wish for. But what we are getting is stuff being shoved down our throats. That is not live and let live. Forcing a a person to bake a cake for an event he does not want and then labelling him homophobic is not live and let live. Going to another baker that will do what you want would be live and let live. If you cannot understand the difference, no one can make you.
You know, I used to make fun of the far right about their anti scientific positions, like the earth being 6 thousand years old and crap like that. Far left has caught up to the right with their anti biology crap. Sex IS binary. There are two genders, no exceptions to that. You have XX chromosomes or XY. That is it. No amount of cutting genitals or hormone therapy can change that biological fact. Sex is biology. Gender is ideology. Simple as that. That does not mean that I have no sympathy towards folks that have issues with this. I do. I am not the least bit threatened by them. I wish them all the best in life. But if you are delusional enough to think just because you cut your penis and have had some hormone therapy you are now a woman, well, basic biology and chromosomes do not support that notion. FACTS do not care about your feelings. Far left has a hard time understanding this. And your feelings are being showed down my throat in the name of acceptance and tolerance. That is not live and let live. If you think a concept like gender fluid is scientific, we stop talking right here anyways.
I have zero problems with a blue haired social justice warrior identifying as a unicorn during the day and a monarch butterfly at night, I really don't. THAT is live and let live. But if you want to make me a part of it and force me to treat you as such , then I basically have the right to tell you to fuck right off.

Preach brotha! Preach!

 

[Moxie]

What you and most of the far left is not understanding is that "live and let live" is what most people, including me, wish for. But what we are getting is stuff being shoved down our throats. That is not live and let live. Forcing a a person to bake a cake for an event he does not want and then labelling him homophobic is not live and let live. Going to another baker that will do what you want would be live and let live. If you cannot understand the difference, no one can make you.
You know, I used to make fun of the far right about their anti scientific positions, like the earth being 6 thousand years old and crap like that. Far left has caught up to the right with their anti biology crap. Sex IS binary. There are two genders, no exceptions to that. You have XX chromosomes or XY. That is it. No amount of cutting genitals or hormone therapy can change that biological fact. Sex is biology. Gender is ideology. Simple as that. That does not mean that I have no sympathy towards folks that have issues with this. I do. I am not the least bit threatened by them. I wish them all the best in life. But if you are delusional enough to think just because you cut your penis and have had some hormone therapy you are now a woman, well, basic biology and chromosomes do not support that notion. FACTS do not care about your feelings. Far left has a hard time understanding this. And your feelings are being showed down my throat in the name of acceptance and tolerance. That is not live and let live. If you think a concept like gender fluid is scientific, we stop talking right here anyways.
I have zero problems with a blue haired social justice warrior identifying as a unicorn during the day and a monarch butterfly at night, I really don't. THAT is live and let live. But if you want to make me a part of it and force me to treat you as such , then I basically have the right to tell you to fuck right off.

A lot of what we're talking about on this thread, the notion of "PC" is a lot of what you're complaining about. You say "you on the left." Referring to me. I'm actually addressing a very specific point here, and now you're attacking my politics. I think you should be cautious about that.

I'm not clear about what is being shoved down your throat. My country, and yours, have accepted gay marriage as the law of the land. People who provide services are not allowed to discriminate. Do you think that's wrong? I think discrimination is wrong. But in practical terms, no gay couple is going to go to a bakery that doesn't want to make them a wedding cake. I really think there is a de facto lack of "shoving it down your throat." Does it not occur to you that you have long been shoving your straightness down the throats of gay people? Gay marriage is the law of the land. If you don't like it, don't get gay married. Or fight within your rights as a citizen, if you'd rather repeal gay marriage. But don't come around and act like a victim.

You saying "facts don't care about your feelings" quotes a really terrible web troll, Ben Shapiro. You do understand that there are people with other variations on XX or XY, don't you? There are men with multiple XXX, and they tend to be in prison. Federberg has forbid me from bringing up Caster Semenya, but her case also tells us that it's not a clear cut XX/XY. Look, believe whatever you want, but to sit around in your straight world and pretend that someone else is shoving complicated issues about gender down your throat is a bit rich. What about any of this affects your life or your relationships? None of it. You could stop thinking of it tomorrow, and you probably will, and yet the people who live with gender dysphoria live with it all the time. The lack of understanding about their situation causes high rates of suicide and of homicide in their community. I think it's a bit weird to act like the wronged party in this scenario, if you're a straight man. Getting back to "live and let live," what about this ruins or even affects your life?

 

[Federberg]

A lot of what we're talking about on this thread, the notion of "PC" is a lot of what you're complaining about. You say "you on the left." Referring to me. I'm actually addressing a very specific point here, and now you're attacking my politics. I think you should be cautious about that.

I'm not clear about what is being shoved down your throat. My country, and yours, have accepted gay marriage as the law of the land. People who provide services are not allowed to discriminate. Do you think that's wrong? I think discrimination is wrong. But in practical terms, no gay couple is going to go to a bakery that doesn't want to make them a wedding cake. I really think there is a de facto lack of "shoving it down your throat." Does it not occur to you that you have long been shoving your straightness down the throats of gay people? Gay marriage is the law of the land. If you don't like it, don't get gay married. Or fight within your rights as a citizen, if you'd rather repeal gay marriage. But don't come around and act like a victim.

You saying "facts don't care about your feelings" quotes a really terrible web troll, Ben Shapiro. You do understand that there are people with other variations on XX or XY, don't you? There are men with multiple XXX, and they tend to be in prison. Federberg has forbid me from bringing up Caster Semenya, but her case also tells us that it's not a clear cut XX/XY. Look, believe whatever you want, but to sit around in your straight world and pretend that someone else is shoving complicated issues about gender down your throat is a bit rich. What about any of this affects your life or your relationships? None of it. You could stop thinking of it tomorrow, and you probably will, and yet the people who live with gender dysphoria live with it all the time. The lack of understanding about their situation causes high rates of suicide and of homicide in their community. I think it's a bit weird to act like the wronged party in this scenario, if you're a straight man. Getting back to "live and let live," what about this ruins or even affects your life?

I assume this is what you're talking about (clip below), re: Ben Shapiro? I tell you... it's hard to disagree with him on this issue even though I think he's a colossal ass 99% of the time. I'm sorry but trans-gendered persons should find other pronouns. This is NOT the same as homosexuality, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. I don't have any objections with how trans-genders want to live their lives, but I feel like I am being asked to suspend scientific reason to accommodate their choices. Progressives are on the right side of the climate science debate for example and I support their adherence to scientific rigour in that debate. Why not apply the same discipline in this context?

 

[britbox]

A lot of what we're talking about on this thread, the notion of "PC" is a lot of what you're complaining about. You say "you on the left." Referring to me. I'm actually addressing a very specific point here, and now you're attacking my politics. I think you should be cautious about that.

I'm not clear about what is being shoved down your throat. My country, and yours, have accepted gay marriage as the law of the land. People who provide services are not allowed to discriminate. Do you think that's wrong? I think discrimination is wrong. But in practical terms, no gay couple is going to go to a bakery that doesn't want to make them a wedding cake. I really think there is a de facto lack of "shoving it down your throat." Does it not occur to you that you have long been shoving your straightness down the throats of gay people? Gay marriage is the law of the land. If you don't like it, don't get gay married. Or fight within your rights as a citizen, if you'd rather repeal gay marriage. But don't come around and act like a victim.

You saying "facts don't care about your feelings" quotes a really terrible web troll, Ben Shapiro. You do understand that there are people with other variations on XX or XY, don't you? There are men with multiple XXX, and they tend to be in prison. Federberg has forbid me from bringing up Caster Semenya, but her case also tells us that it's not a clear cut XX/XY. Look, believe whatever you want, but to sit around in your straight world and pretend that someone else is shoving complicated issues about gender down your throat is a bit rich. What about any of this affects your life or your relationships? None of it. You could stop thinking of it tomorrow, and you probably will, and yet the people who live with gender dysphoria live with it all the time. The lack of understanding about their situation causes high rates of suicide and of homicide in their community. I think it's a bit weird to act like the wronged party in this scenario, if you're a straight man. Getting back to "live and let live," what about this ruins or even affects your life?

I didn't read it that he was claiming to be a victim or that it had "ruined his life". He was just offering an opinion.

Anyway Moxie, let's have a scenario where you go swimming... you go into the women's changing rooms to get changed...

Which of the following are you OK with?

a) A man walks in to get changed.
b) A man (in every aspect) other than they say they identify as a woman come into get changed.
c) A man (in every aspect) except they say they dress as a woman comes in to get changed.
d) A man (currently in the trans change) on hormones but still with male tackle comes into get changed.
e) A trans person with male genitalia and female breasts come into get changed.
f) A trans woman who was a man but has had male genitalia removed comes onto get changed.

At what point is your "threshold"?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

A lot of what we're talking about on this thread, the notion of "PC" is a lot of what you're complaining about. You say "you on the left." Referring to me. I'm actually addressing a very specific point here, and now you're attacking my politics. I think you should be cautious about that.

I'm not clear about what is being shoved down your throat. My country, and yours, have accepted gay marriage as the law of the land. People who provide services are not allowed to discriminate. Do you think that's wrong? I think discrimination is wrong. But in practical terms, no gay couple is going to go to a bakery that doesn't want to make them a wedding cake. I really think there is a de facto lack of "shoving it down your throat." Does it not occur to you that you have long been shoving your straightness down the throats of gay people? Gay marriage is the law of the land. If you don't like it, don't get gay married. Or fight within your rights as a citizen, if you'd rather repeal gay marriage. But don't come around and act like a victim.

You saying "facts don't care about your feelings" quotes a really terrible web troll, Ben Shapiro. You do understand that there are people with other variations on XX or XY, don't you? There are men with multiple XXX, and they tend to be in prison. Federberg has forbid me from bringing up Caster Semenya, but her case also tells us that it's not a clear cut XX/XY. Look, believe whatever you want, but to sit around in your straight world and pretend that someone else is shoving complicated issues about gender down your throat is a bit rich. What about any of this affects your life or your relationships? None of it. You could stop thinking of it tomorrow, and you probably will, and yet the people who live with gender dysphoria live with it all the time. The lack of understanding about their situation causes high rates of suicide and of homicide in their community. I think it's a bit weird to act like the wronged party in this scenario, if you're a straight man. Getting back to "live and let live," what about this ruins or even affects your life?

XX and XY are not debatable by any biologist. One may try, but one fails every time.It is not complicated. Gender dysphoria is a real thing that has nothing to do with your chromosomes. It is a mental issue that has to be dealt with. And suicide rate in the trans community is very high before and after someone has transitioned. That has to be dealt with by professionals too.
The bakery issue has happened, that is why I give it as an example of shoving your beliefs down other's throats. Read the guy's story below.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/baker-same-sex-wedding-cake-us-supreme-court-case-1.4690485
I have never shoved my sexual preferences down anyone's throat .Not even once, because that is not a subject I talk about with people. Unlike gay people, I do not want parades . If people feel their sexual preference deserves a parade, it is their thing I guess. Mine does not. It is not even worth mentioning. It should be private. My gay cousin who is married to a wonderful girl agrees with me on that too. She would not be caught dead on a gay parade. We had parades after winning the Second World War. We have parades when a team wins something. And now we have parades to show the whole world who we sleep with. Whatever. Good for you.

 

[Moxie]

I didn't read it that he was claiming to be a victim or that it had "ruined his life". He was just offering an opinion.

Anyway Moxie, let's have a scenario where you go swimming... you go into the women's changing rooms to get changed...

Which of the following are you OK with?

a) A man walks in to get changed.
b) A man (in every aspect) other than they say they identify as a woman come into get changed.
c) A man (in every aspect) except they say they dress as a woman comes in to get changed.
d) A man (currently in the trans change) on hormones but still with male tackle comes into get changed.
e) A trans person with male genitalia and female breasts come into get changed.
f) A trans woman who was a man but has had male genitalia removed comes onto get changed.

At what point is your "threshold"?

Funny how quickly many conversations about transgender get so quickly to women's bathrooms and changing rooms. And I really don't believe I've ever heard a woman express any problems with it. It really does just seem to come from men projecting their own anxieties onto us. Why don't you tell me how you feel about trans men in your changing room.

 

[britbox]

Funny how quickly many conversations about transgender get so quickly to women's bathrooms and changing rooms. And I really don't believe I've ever heard a woman express any problems with it. It really does just seem to come from men projecting their own anxieties onto us. Why don't you tell me how you feel about trans men in your changing room.

How about answering the original question?

 

[Moxie]

How about answering the original question?

Your question? I don't really feel I have to...just because you asked it? It's kind of ridiculous and paranoid, if you ask me. I'll tell you, though, I saw my first transvestite in a women's room at a Liza Minelli concert when I was 16. I thought she was the most glamorous thing I'd ever seen, and told my mother so, with complete awe, when I came out of the restroom. Neither one of us was freaked out that there was a "man" in the women's room. Even in my then near complete naiveté about worldly ways, I felt no threat.

 

[britbox]

Your question? I don't really feel I have to...just because you asked it? It's kind of ridiculous and paranoid, if you ask me. I'll tell you, though, I saw my first transvestite in a women's room at a Liza Minelli concert when I was 16. I thought she was the most glamorous thing I'd ever seen, and told my mother so, with complete awe, when I came out of the restroom. Neither one of us was freaked out that there was a "man" in the women's room. Even in my then near complete naiveté about worldly ways, I felt no threat.

No, it's not ridiculous. Do you think a man should be able to stroll in and use women's changing facilities? Let's start from there.

 

[Moxie]

No, it's not ridiculous. Do you think a man should be able to stroll in and use women's changing facilities? Let's start from there.

I've told you my thoughts. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, why are you so worried about who comes into my changing room?

 

[britbox]

You haven't answered the question at all. Yes or no will suffice. I have a wife, sister, mother... I would actually care.

 

[Moxie]

You haven't answered the question at all. Yes or no will suffice. I have a wife, sister, mother... I would actually care.

Ask them if they care. You seem to have completely missed the point that you are projecting your fears onto them. You also distract the conversation from the what we were talking about. But I guess you guys have made your feelings clear...you're unnerved by trans people.

 

[Federberg]

you've picked the wrong to trio to avoid the issue with Moxie Trying to narrate what we feel instead of answering the question is not advancing the debate. It's just.... obvious. With all due respect this isn't about our fears, and it's a bit pathetic that you think that accusation will have any relevance to grown ups. This is about how some progressives try to impose whatever new societal fashion takes their fancy on the rest of the world

 

[britbox]

Ask them if they care. You seem to have completely missed the point that you are projecting your fears onto them. You also distract the conversation from the what we were talking about. But I guess you guys have made your feelings clear...you're unnerved by trans people.

No, I'm actually delving into the practicalities of what you're proposing. Since you're asking, my wife was working with a transgender male morphing into a female and felt very uncomfortable about bathroom procedures. But, hey! Not really one of the sisterhood eh?

I'm not unnerved by trans people... that's the common trope fed out by so-called "progressives"... if you don't agree with us, then you're "phobic" or it's "hate speech".

Phobic... means scared of...

You've failed to address any of the questions here Moxie, which is disappointing for you... because I've always regarded you as having bigger balls than many of the males on the forum. You might not appreciate the remark, but it's actually a compliment.

If I had a 10 year old daughter and sent her to get changed after swimming, and some hairy arsed grock in a pair of black speedos follows her into the female changing rooms then yes, it's a problem.

 

[Federberg]

If I had a 10 year old daughter and sent her to get changed after swimming, and some hairy arsed grock in a pair of black speedos follows her into the female changing rooms then yes, it's a problem.

100%!!! And woe betide any progressive that tells me to feel any different about it!

 

[Moxie]

No, I'm actually delving into the practicalities of what you're proposing. Since you're asking, my wife was working with a transgender male morphing into a female and felt very uncomfortable about bathroom procedures. But, hey! Not really one of the sisterhood eh?

I'm not unnerved by trans people... that's the common trope fed out by so-called "progressives"... if you don't agree with us, then you're "phobic" or it's "hate speech".

Phobic... means scared of...

You've failed to address any of the questions here Moxie, which is disappointing for you... because I've always regarded you as having bigger balls than many of the males on the forum. You might not appreciate the remark, but it's actually a compliment.

If I had a 10 year old daughter and sent her to get changed after swimming, and some hairy arsed grock in a pair of black speedos follows her into the female changing rooms then yes, it's a problem.

I know what "phobic" means. I don't know what questions I've failed to answer, except for your multiple choice one about what variations of man/trans person I'd be comfortable with in a changing room, which, you have to admit, is a bit of a trap question, but also, as I said, paranoid and a little weird and beside the point. But neither did you answer the question when I put it back to you. And as to your last point, I can't believe you think that's at all what we're talking about, but the problem is that you do. I thought we were talking about transgender people, not pedophiles. (BTW, -phile means "to love." )

 

[britbox]

I know what "phobic" means. I don't know what questions I've failed to answer, except for your multiple choice one about what variations of man/trans person I'd be comfortable with in a changing room, which, you have to admit, is a bit of a trap question, but also, as I said, paranoid and a little weird and beside the point. But neither did you answer the question when I put it back to you. And as to your last point, I can't believe you think that's at all what we're talking about, but the problem is that you do. I thought we were talking about transgender people, not pedophiles. (BTW, -phile means "to love." )

Women trans-gendering to men appearing in my changing room? I wouldn't give a crap. I wouldn't care if women showed up anyway.

But, that's a different kettle of fish Moxie. We can discuss that more... but first answer my questions.