Serious PC thread

mrzz

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"Gender prejudice" is not behind the difference in pay in tennis? In fact, it's not. Where men and women don't play together, the women get paid less. A fact that men around here seem to forget. Equal pay is not an existing problem? That, I would dispute, at least globally. It's a bit of a cheap gambit to put doubles and wheelchair tennis in for equal parts of the pot. We're talking about singles, here, and everyone knows that that's where the interest is, thereby the money. You can congratulate yourself for deciding that you'd be ok if women made even more money than you, in your field, but you know that's not the norm, right? And I don't even have to know what field you're in. Anyway, I appreciate your admitting that men don't like women making more money than men. As we see around here, and in these conversations, they don't even like them making the same.

But, Moxie, the events in which women get paid less -- the WTA events -- are events that generate less revenue. Probably it is even impossible to these events to pay the women the same men get. You know the guys sell more tickets and generate more money from TV broadcasts. They have different tours, independent from each other. Even if could force tournaments to pay the same for each tour, do you know what would happen? The ATP would simply refuse to play on the same venues as the WTA, and they would run their more profitable circus elsewhere. When you force artificial equality you harvest more division.

With wheelchairs I was exaggerating to make a point. But with doubles... you needed to resort to the "everyone knows" argument, which is exactly the argument the guy in the video used against equal pay. "Everyone knows that nobody wants to see women's tennis" (and, yes, I know that this is an exaggeration).

It makes almost zero sense that a lot of smart people, with a lot of more important things to do, lose their time discussing how much money a small group of very privileged people (even if most earned their privilege) do. If we were talking about how much money the majors and/or the ITF inserts back in the formation of young players, that's a whole different story. In this case, for the sake of equal opportunity, surely it should be split in half. And it would affect much more people.
 

Moxie

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What I have tried to argue for is that it's at the lower levels that the disqualify rears its ugly head.
 

Horsa

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I wrote this when I felt particularly restricted & thought it kinda belonged here. I'm very sorry it's in rhyme for those who don't like rhyme but that's just how it came out because I find myself thinking in rhyme sometimes. In a way I like it when it happens because I think rhyme is very elegant.

I don't know what to say anymore. Is it just me?
You can't say this or that because it's not P.C.
Other people can be extremely rude.
You can't say what you want though in case it's misconstrued.
You're asked for your feelings & thoughts.
When you give them, though you get nasty retorts.
Sometimes you feel like you just can't win.
Sometimes you just feel like giving in.

I hope you like it anyway. Please feel free to offer constructive criticism & it will be taken on board. Non-constructive criticism won't though.
 
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Horsa

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I've recently been listening to an old Beatles album where 1 of the songs would have been banned if it was released today on the grounds of racism though thinking about how it was written & the words it wasn't written to offend black people but to alert people to how important women are to society & how much they do as well as how they're treated now & have been treated in the past & I think the purpose of this song was to enlighten people of women's role in society & change the way people thought about & treated women. The song was called "woman is the (6 letter n word) of the world". It would have perhaps been better if it had been called "woman is the slave of the world" but we have to remember that different language was acceptable then to what is acceptable now. (I love Beatles songs especially those where John or Paul were trying to get people to think differently about certain things & maybe act differently in a good way. I also like Reggae because it looks at everyday situations & gets a message across making people think differently about certain things & act differently in a positive way.)
 

mrzz

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I am really baffled by the women's USOPEN final controversy. Not by what happened -- which is understandable. I play tennis, I usually get pretty pissed of, I almost broke my own nose once with a self inflicted punch, so I am the last person to judge someone who lost her temper.

Having said that, the things I read about this issue, for me are beyond apaling. Either people are letting their emotions get the better of them just like a player on court (but now, with far less justification), or they are profoundly dumb, or extremely ill intended.

I have zero doubt that the umpire is 100% right. He enforced the rules, period. He was polite to the player. At any decision he took, he had no other possible correct choice available.

The first decision, about coaching, is so obvious that is unbelievably tiresome to defend it. What else can one say? The common arguments against it are:

1) Everybody does it.

Answer: Not true, not true by a long shot. But, yes, others do that too. So maybe more players should be penalized. That's up to any umpire -- and governing entities -- to decide. On that match, do anyone who is complaining was watching the whole time to be sure of what was going on? Do anyone who is complaining was doing the umpire's job to question his call? How many times could have him caught the coach doing what he admitedly did, which was even caught on camera? Do we have all to believe that it was, oh, just that very time? Sorry, it does not work that way.

And, hell, it was A WARNING!

Also, about that. Serena Williams did on court what most debating this issue are doing, she diverted the subject. She said the umpire attacked her character. No, he enforced the rules. He did not spoke a single word about her character. He spotted non-allowed behavior and acted within his premises. If Williams never saw, never asked for it, if it was some gut reaction from the coach, if it was all in good faith, IT DOES NOT MATTER. Just like when you make a foot-fault, the rules make you lose your serve. It does not necessarily mean you were consciously wanting to cheat and win like Dick Dastardly. It is just not allowed, whatever the reason behind it. It is beyond me how can someone even think that to turn a rule debate on a tennis court a debate about character is reasonable.

2) It is sexism.

Answer: Who was on the other side of the net, a man? No. If a male player is allowed more coaching than a female counterpart, who is on the other side of the net to pay the price and be in disadvantage, a woman? No, a man. So, different matches, different tournaments, different tours, different organizations, and NO ADVANTAGE given to a man in detriment of a woman because of that.

Actually, it is precisely the other way around. If women were supposed to follow higher standards just because they are women, it means that this is sexism towards men! It is equivalent as saying "men are just this bunch of savages, they cannot follow any rules, they cannot behave properly, just let them do their things, as they are helpless anyway". If tennis had no rules, if people were allowed to curse all the time, to abuse their gear, to insult umpires, do whatever shit they wanted to do, in no time it would lose a good bit of its audience -- or at least it would be a very different game altogether. Even if the standards were different -- which I strongly doubt they are, it has zero sense to call it sexism.

3) The umpire should have warned Williams before the game penalty.

Answer: This is ultimately wrong, but at least is one argument that does not offend my inteliggence neither my dignity as an honest human being. The umpire was calmly and politely talking to Williams the whole time, even when she was yelling at him, being absurdly disrespectful to him. She was giving him the classical "I am the star, you are just a peasant" treatment. But the guy kept his cool. As he is talking in a lower tone, it is much harder to hear what he says, but he is actually trying to calm her down and explain his reasons (which he does not need to do). Then, out of the blue, she calls him a thief. He could have "warned" her again here? First, by the rules, the warning was already given. Second, THIS IS HIS CALL. He considered she went too far, and, hell, she was ranting for minutes. HE WAS giving her every chance to calm down and stop. She didn't. By the way, the game penalty worked, as she called for the tournament director (which is something within her rights), he came, she explained her point, came back to the match and stopped her show.

4) This is racism.

Answer: I am sorry, but this is outrageous. The only reason I can think for someone to say this is that the person is not thinking about what he or she is saying. First, there was no blue eyed blonde on the other side of the net. Second -- and this is the important part -- given that racism is something abominable, horrific, and a stain that could never leave a person if once attached to him -- I find absurd, despicable, even criminal to so quickly label one person a racist because of a call that he or she had to do in the heat of the moment, in front of millions around the world. Even if he had made a mistake (which he didn't), it would be yet giantly unfair to call the guy (which is a public figure and his face and name are known to people) a racist.

I put this on this thread because , but it has all the fingerprints of PC bullshit:

1) It changes the subject of the conversation. What should be about the rules suddenly is about deeper, more important things that -- obviously -- the accusers can spot and tell for sure. In this world, whoever screams louder that she is a mother and that never cheated in his life, is the one with reason.

2) It falls back on an authoritarian speech. "I demand an apology". Everything has to bow down to the way I see the world, if not, I scream.

3) Everything is about race and gender. Sometimes, it simply isn't. Actually, people who REALLY care about race and gender -- and have real reasons to complain -- should be torn ripping out their hair from their heads. A black woman who is unfairly treated by her white boss due to prejudice, who earns just what is barely needed for living and is in a fragile position to defend her rights, that is a victim. A black woman who is a star, who has millions of fans, millions of dollars, and was basically the reason why most people were watching, and was treated ACCORDING TO THE RULE BOOK, in front of millions of witnesses, is far, far from a victim. Of course things are not binary, of course those are two extremes and there are grey areas in between. But, as I put, this is an extreme, and as I always say, nothing does more damage to fighting prejudice at its roots than to evoke it in vain.

So, in a sense, I agree that Serena Williams was a victim. A victim of a way of thinking which is stupid, illogic, and a great cause of harm. Again, watching the video sometimes I can feel sympathy for her (and sometimes don't, when she treats the umpire like shit).

And I write this not the denigrate her. The few who ever payed attention to what I write know that I really don't care to what players actually are, personally. I watch them play, I don't care one bit who they are. But, if someone wants to see them as heroes, it is all good. Here is the point: heroes, real human heroes, are NOT perfect. I can appreciate all the difficulties that someone like Williams had to overcome to get where she did. This seems to be more than enough to elevate someone to "hero" status. But she is human, she can make mistakes and crack down like everyone else. Maybe less than most, but still. Given what she does for a living, the stakes were high and the world was watching. Simply admiting that she does not have a point here does not make her a "lesser hero". It just makes her a more human one.
 
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Moxie

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@mrzz: I hope you will read this from Anna Kessel in The Guardian. I agree with her points and she says it better. People are polarized between seeing this as a "letter of the law" question, or a wider scope problem.
 

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@mrzz: I hope you will read this from Anna Kessel in The Guardian. I agree with her points and she says it better. People are polarized between seeing this as a "letter of the law" question, or a wider scope problem.

The article is garbage. It talks as if there was one minor transgression... not three in the same match. Did any of Thiem's racquet smashing episodes go unpunished?
 

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The article is garbage. It talks as if there was one minor transgression... not three in the same match. Did any of Thiem's racquet smashing episodes go unpunished?
I already know where you stand on this kind of thing...which is basically with your fingers in your ears.
 

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How about answering the point instead of glib retorts? Did any of Thiem's racquet smashing episodes go unpunished? If he'd done it three times in one match do you seriously think he'd have been given a pass?
 

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How about answering the point instead of glib retorts? Did any of Thiem's racquet smashing episodes go unpunished? If he'd done it three times in one match do you seriously think he'd have been given a pass?
Life is short and I've had this debate with you too many times. I understand that some of the examples are for one offense (though do see Federberg's examples on the match thread.) The main question for everyone is why did Ramos chose to dock her a game, at that point in a Major final, rather than warn or take it on the chin? That to me is where he could have used better judgement, rather than escalating the whole thing. And I do think that women in general get treated differently when they complain and act out, and I think Serena in particular has been singled out her whole career, which has a race factor.
 

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Life is short and I've had this debate with you too many times. I understand that some of the examples are for one offense (though do see Federberg's examples on the match thread.) The main question for everyone is why did Ramos chose to dock her a game, at that point in a Major final, rather than warn or take it on the chin? That to me is where he could have used better judgement, rather than escalating the whole thing. And I do think that women in general get treated differently when they complain and act out, and I think Serena in particular has been singled out her whole career, which as has a race factor.

So you are basically saying umpires should be prepared to accept abuse from players and "take it on the chin"... Serena is no spring chicken, she knows the drill. She knew she was already on two transgressions.... she was getting her ass handed to her by Osaka... part of me thinks she knew what she was doing.
 

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It's not like we haven't been here before either. Remember the Clijsters match? Remember the Stosur match?
 

mrzz

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(though do see Federberg's examples on the match thread.)

Those are examples are being -- surprise, surprise -- being interpreted exactly the opposite way they should. They show a pattern from Carlos Ramos: he enforces the rules, and is patient with players outbursts. Serena, however, did TWO things that WERE NOT present on those examples:

1) She kept talking, and offending, on and on. She screamed AT THE UMPIRE FACE, POINTING HER FINGER at him, more than once, and not just after the call. It was not a gut reaction. She kept pushing.

2) She directly and personally offended him. She put herself exactly in the piece of the rule book someone else posted.

And the guy who tweeted that is -- unsurprisingly -- calling for the referee resignation. Typical, no punishment is enough if I disagree with you. What is appalling is that these people call themselves "progressives", and the rest of the world just let them get away with it. This is the mindset of the oppressors.

About your link, Moxie, I'll read it in a better mood to give it a better assessment.
 

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I am really baffled by the women's USOPEN final controversy. Not by what happened -- which is understandable. I play tennis, I usually get pretty pissed of, I almost broke my own nose once with a self inflicted punch, so I am the last person to judge someone who lost her temper.

Having said that, the things I read about this issue, for me are beyond apaling. Either people are letting their emotions get the better of them just like a player on court (but now, with far less justification), or they are profoundly dumb, or extremely ill intended.

I have zero doubt that the umpire is 100% right. He enforced the rules, period. He was polite to the player. At any decision he took, he had no other possible correct choice available.

The first decision, about coaching, is so obvious that is unbelievably tiresome to defend it. What else can one say? The common arguments against it are:

1) Everybody does it.

Answer: Not true, not true by a long shot. But, yes, others do that too. So maybe more players should be penalized. That's up to any umpire -- and governing entities -- to decide. On that match, do anyone who is complaining was watching the whole time to be sure of what was going on? Do anyone who is complaining was doing the umpire's job to question his call? How many times could have him caught the coach doing what he admitedly did, which was even caught on camera? Do we have all to believe that it was, oh, just that very time? Sorry, it does not work that way.

And, hell, it was A WARNING!

Also, about that. Serena Williams did on court what most debating this issue are doing, she diverted the subject. She said the umpire attacked her character. No, he enforced the rules. He did not spoke a single word about her character. He spotted non-allowed behavior and acted within his premises. If Williams never saw, never asked for it, if it was some gut reaction from the coach, if it was all in good faith, IT DOES NOT MATTER. Just like when you make a foot-fault, the rules make you lose your serve. It does not necessarily mean you were consciously wanting to cheat and win like Dick Dastardly. It is just not allowed, whatever the reason behind it. It is beyond me how can someone even think that to turn a rule debate on a tennis court a debate about character is reasonable.

2) It is sexism.

Answer: Who was on the other side of the net, a man? No. If a male player is allowed more coaching than a female counterpart, who is on the other side of the net to pay the price and be in disadvantage, a woman? No, a man. So, different matches, different tournaments, different tours, different organizations, and NO ADVANTAGE given to a man in detriment of a woman because of that.

Actually, it is precisely the other way around. If women were supposed to follow higher standards just because they are women, it means that this is sexism towards men! It is equivalent as saying "men are just this bunch of savages, they cannot follow any rules, they cannot behave properly, just let them do their things, as they are helpless anyway". If tennis had no rules, if people were allowed to curse all the time, to abuse their gear, to insult umpires, do whatever shit they wanted to do, in no time it would lose a good bit of its audience -- or at least it would be a very different game altogether. Even if the standards were different -- which I strongly doubt they are, it has zero sense to call it sexism.

3) The umpire should have warned Williams before the game penalty.

Answer: This is ultimately wrong, but at least is one argument that does not offend my inteliggence neither my dignity as an honest human being. The umpire was calmly and politely talking to Williams the whole time, even when she was yelling at him, being absurdly disrespectful to him. She was giving him the classical "I am the star, you are just a peasant" treatment. But the guy kept his cool. As he is talking in a lower tone, it is much harder to hear what he says, but he is actually trying to calm her down and explain his reasons (which he does not need to do). Then, out of the blue, she calls him a thief. He could have "warned" her again here? First, by the rules, the warning was already given. Second, THIS IS HIS CALL. He considered she went too far, and, hell, she was ranting for minutes. HE WAS giving her every chance to calm down and stop. She didn't. By the way, the game penalty worked, as she called for the tournament director (which is something within her rights), he came, she explained her point, came back to the match and stopped her show.

4) This is racism.

Answer: I am sorry, but this is outrageous. The only reason I can think for someone to say this is that the person is not thinking about what he or she is saying. First, there was no blue eyed blonde on the other side of the net. Second -- and this is the important part -- given that racism is something abominable, horrific, and a stain that could never leave a person if once attached to him -- I find absurd, despicable, even criminal to so quickly label one person a racist because of a call that he or she had to do in the heat of the moment, in front of millions around the world. Even if he had made a mistake (which he didn't), it would be yet giantly unfair to call the guy (which is a public figure and his face and name are known to people) a racist.

I put this on this thread because , but it has all the fingerprints of PC bullshit:

1) It changes the subject of the conversation. What should be about the rules suddenly is about deeper, more important things that -- obviously -- the accusers can spot and tell for sure. In this world, whoever screams louder that she is a mother and that never cheated in his life, is the one with reason.

2) It falls back on an authoritarian speech. "I demand an apology". Everything has to bow down to the way I see the world, if not, I scream.

3) Everything is about race and gender. Sometimes, it simply isn't. Actually, people who REALLY care about race and gender -- and have real reasons to complain -- should be torn ripping out their hair from their heads. A black woman who is unfairly treated by her white boss due to prejudice, who earns just what is barely needed for living and is in a fragile position to defend her rights, that is a victim. A black woman who is a star, who has millions of fans, millions of dollars, and was basically the reason why most people were watching, and was treated ACCORDING TO THE RULE BOOK, in front of millions of witnesses, is far, far from a victim. Of course things are not binary, of course those are two extremes and there are grey areas in between. But, as I put, this is an extreme, and as I always say, nothing does more damage to fighting prejudice at its roots than to evoke it in vain.

So, in a sense, I agree that Serena Williams was a victim. A victim of a way of thinking which is stupid, illogic, and a great cause of harm. Again, watching the video sometimes I can feel sympathy for her (and sometimes don't, when she treats the umpire like shit).

And I write this not the denigrate her. The few who ever payed attention to what I write know that I really don't care to what players actually are, personally. I watch them play, I don't care one bit who they are. But, if someone wants to see them as heroes, it is all good. Here is the point: heroes, real human heroes, are NOT perfect. I can appreciate all the difficulties that someone like Williams had to overcome to get where she did. This seems to be more than enough to elevate someone to "hero" status. But she is human, she can make mistakes and crack down like everyone else. Maybe less than most, but still. Given what she does for a living, the stakes were high and the world was watching. Simply admiting that she does not have a point here does not make her a "lesser hero". It just makes her a more human one.
Do you feel better after your rant? I agree with what you're saying up to a point.

1stly in a way Serena was a victim as she wasn't responsible for her coach coaching her but she could have stated that it was unfair that she was penalised for what someone else has done in a civilised manner while pointing out that not everyone gets penalised like she did stating cases. (This type of offence could be prevented in future by not letting coaches watch matches live but from a T.V. in a back room.)

2ndly, under no circumstances should she have thrown a paddy, broken her racquet & started being threatening towards the umpire who was doing his job to the best of his ability under the circumstances. Maybe she was angry but she could have expressed her anger some other way like in a very constructive way for the situation & carrying on with the game giving the ball a hefty whack.

3rdly, it doesn't matter how angry people are, they don't have the right to get abusive towards other people & you just don't call people a thief. The umpire had to do something. Maybe he could have given her an extra warning but he had to get order so proceedings could take place/continue. Power is exercised in 1 of 3 ways, hierarchical by authority, by people knowing the rules & abiding by them & knowing what will happen if they don't, doing their best (self-governance) *there is more to it than that in other situations but I'm not talking about other situations so will keep things short* or a mixture of both. Serena wasn't governing herself & was disrespecting the umpire's authority so he had to do something. Maybe she has had harsher treatment than some other players but there is a time, place & way to air grievances & she chose the wrong time, place & way to vent. I don't think this was a case of racism or gender inequality but of trying to get order & enforce the rules. Even if it was a case of racism or gender inequality there are other ways of dealing with this. I'm also sick of the gender inequality or racism card being played instead of people just thinking of actions & consequences as in when we act in a way that's not right we have to face the consequences for that action though sometimes we can lessen the consequences by thinking about what we've done when we know we're wrong, eating humble pie & apologising & explaining. We're all human & we all make mistakes. I also think the umpire was a victim of Serena's abuse & don't blame him for not standing for it. She's like a female version of John McEnroe. Her behaviour was atrocious but she's human & got angry to the point where she left the umpire with no choice but to exercise his authority & we all do things we later regret when we're angry.
 
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Moxie

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Those are examples are being -- surprise, surprise -- being interpreted exactly the opposite way they should. They show a pattern from Carlos Ramos: he enforces the rules, and is patient with players outbursts. Serena, however, did TWO things that WERE NOT present on those examples:

1) She kept talking, and offending, on and on. She screamed AT THE UMPIRE FACE, POINTING HER FINGER at him, more than once, and not just after the call. It was not a gut reaction. She kept pushing.

2) She directly and personally offended him. She put herself exactly in the piece of the rule book someone else posted.

And the guy who tweeted that is -- unsurprisingly -- calling for the referee resignation. Typical, no punishment is enough if I disagree with you. What is appalling is that these people call themselves "progressives", and the rest of the world just let them get away with it. This is the mindset of the oppressors.

About your link, Moxie, I'll read it in a better mood to give it a better assessment.
Understand that I have nothing against Carlos Ramos, and I think he's an excellent umpire. I do think that you are inadvertently exposing your own double-standards in the way that you have described Serena yelling at the chair. Let me quote here that portion of your first post on this:

"3) The umpire should have warned Williams before the game penalty.

Answer: This is ultimately wrong, but at least is one argument that does not offend my inteliggence neither my dignity as an honest human being. The umpire was calmly and politely talking to Williams the whole time, even when she was yelling at him, being absurdly disrespectful to him. She was giving him the classical "I am the star, you are just a peasant" treatment. But the guy kept his cool. As he is talking in a lower tone, it is much harder to hear what he says, but he is actually trying to calm her down and explain his reasons (which he does not need to do). Then, out of the blue, she calls him a thief. He could have "warned" her again here? First, by the rules, the warning was already given. Second, THIS IS HIS CALL. He considered she went too far, and, hell, she was ranting for minutes. HE WAS giving her every chance to calm down and stop. She didn't. By the way, the game penalty worked, as she called for the tournament director (which is something within her rights), he came, she explained her point, came back to the match and stopped her show."
------------------------

Firstly, any time the player is yelling at the chair, the umpire is soft-spoken and reasonable. That is their job. To do otherwise would be unprofessional in the extreme. And you have even made an example of yourself for getting very hotheaded during competition. To say that she was "absurdly disrespectful to him," I think is an exaggeration, and ignores arguments that male players have had with chair umpires, impugning their integrity, often without consequence, even though it often includes obscenities, which Serena's did not. To interpolate her thinking as, "I am the star, you are just a peasant" is completely your invention. Did you feel the same way when Federer has told off the chair? Because you should.

I completely agree that Serena was wrong to keep hammering the point. She should have let it go. At the very least for her own well-being in the match. However, I think you and @britbox are ignoring context vis-a-vis Serena and the USO, and otherwise across her career. There has been a cumulative effect of feeling unfairly judged compared to others, starting with the Capriati match, which I attended, and is one of the reasons we have Hawkeye. In the arena, we didn't have the benefit of replay, but we were left with the feeling that Serena was ripped off by the officiating in that match, and not just one call. Indian Wells is an obvious example of both sisters getting treated shabbily, and there was more than a tinge of racism in it.

Then the Clijsters match, then the Stosur one. (Hinderance, in a final? Seriously?) And now the French federation has banned the catsuit that Serena wore at RG, even though it was designed to protect her health, postpartum, because she has a history of blood clots, and had such a difficult delivery of her child. It doesn't take a great leap of empathy to understand that she might feel like she is more targeted than others, when it comes to sanctioning. Sure, there are rules, but a lot of players, and generally they are male, get a bit more of a pass before they get even warned. And the feeling amongst women is that men are expected to be aggressive and competitive, so when they explode, it's somewhere between understandable and entertaining. When women do it, it's disrespectful (your tack,) overly aggressive and out-of-line. Never mind that Serena is one of the most decorated women in tennis. She didn't get there by being a shrinking violet. She is a strong competitor, and if she argues as much as men, she shouldn't be judged differently. If she has to argue more often, I'd say it is in part because she's a woman. Because she gets judged differently. And as a strong woman of color, she gets seen as threatening when she does it. These are just prejudices that people have. Do you really not see that?

Lastly, I'm not sure why you say that the people who have complained on line are "progressives." That has not come into the debate, so, again, you are reading-in, and unnecessarily polarizing where people are coming from.

Part of the problem originated from Serena not seeing signals from her coach, and so she didn't think she was being penalized for that. Ramos could have been sensitive to that. Let's not forget that this is a US Open where Lahyani decided to give Kyrgios a pep talk to keep him from losing focus. Why did Serena not deserve the same gentleness from the chair? In a final, ffs. Ramos could have gentled her better, instead he chose to take it to 11. Not for nothing, they decided not to bring him out for the usual awarding of a medal to the chair umpire. Why? Because the crowd would have eviscerated him. I don't care that people like to call the NYC crowds rude. They were also there, as I was when Serena got hard done by in the Capriati match. They would have seen that Serena was not treated well by the chair, and they'd have booed him off the stage. The fact that the tournament knew that has to say something.
 

Moxie

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For the sake of clarity, this gives a rundown of Serena's issues at the US Open.
 

mrzz

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I know you don't like it but for the sake of debate it is better to run down point by point:


To say that she was "absurdly disrespectful to him," I think is an exaggeration, and ignores arguments that male players have had with chair umpires, impugning their integrity, often without consequence, even though it often includes obscenities, which Serena's did not

Disagree. I don't see that many times players blatantly calling an umpire a thief, specially given circumstances. Actually, the fact that one of the calmest phrases that she said was "you are a thief" made it all worst. They both new at the time that the whole world was (or later would) watching. This was probably the greatest offense a player ever made to an umpire -- it would be so even if he had not given her yet another code violation. People are making a giant leap in argumentation when they say that because once some guy cursed at the umpire, then this is the norm, then they "normally" get away with it. That's a whole different conversation -- which still should not matter, because it is still something on the lines of "if someone else broke the law, then I can break it too".


Did you feel the same way when Federer has told off the chair? Because you should.

Actually, I did think that Federer behaved like an asshole there (if you are referring to the 2009 final). Of course that when you wrote "you should", I wanted to answer simply "no". Point is that is not clear cut that behaving like an asshole means a code violation -- he could get one, but it is a far more subjective case than this one.

These are just prejudices that people have. Do you really not see that?

Answering the whole two paragraphs that finish on this line: Yes, Moxie, people have prejudices, and you know I agree with you on that. But the whole point here is that people are accusing one specific individual of making a bad call based on his own prejudice. You are always the first to defend players who are accused without proof... how cannot you see the giant injustice in painting one guy trying to do his job as a racist because other people have prejudices?

You referred to a long list of past cases which I frankly don't know in detail, but I will simply believe you when you say Williams was unfairly treated on all those. You give them as justification for William's attitude, and, ok, fine for me. It can justify her actions, I understand it from a human perspective, but it still does not make her the one with a point here. Are you really saying that Ramos should stop and think "hmmm.. poor Serena, she's been so wrongly treated, let's give her a break"... it does not make sense.

Lastly, I'm not sure why you say that the people who have complained on line are "progressives." That has not come into the debate, so, again, you are reading-in, and unnecessarily polarizing where people are coming from.

Sorry, Moxie, but I am no hypocrite. You know people had already turn this in to a political debate. Yourself has written "People are polarized between seeing this as a "letter of the law" question, or a wider scope problem." This is basically the definition of a conservative x liberal debate. If it was a logic, honest debate, I would be happy to participate -- and join the liberal side. And, yes, I know that a lot fucking retarded prejudice-minded people are salivating because Serena Williams behaved that way and got punished. So, why in the world cannot we find a good example or prejudice to have this debate, instead of crucifying a guy who was doing his job?

Let's not forget that this is a US Open where Lahyani decided to give Kyrgios a pep talk to keep him from losing focus. Why did Serena not deserve the same gentleness from the chair? In a final, ffs. Ramos could have gentled her better, instead he chose to take it to 11.

Let's not forget that EVERYONE agreed that Lahyani was wrong on what he did. So it is not a question of "deserving". And, c'mon, Ramos tried quite hard to reason with her. He was, in fact, "gentle", using, for instance, words similar to that of Lahyani. When Serena told him she was no cheater, he put his hand to his heart and said, "I know that, Serena". He did that a lot of times. He was trying to talk to her when she ordered him to shut up, screaming.

Moxie, all I am saying from post 1 is: The umpire did his job. All I am protesting -- all that pisses me off - is to put it all down to his alleged "prejudice" and "sexism". There is prejudice in the world? Yes. There is sexism? Yes. Is this guy guilty of it, in this case? No. People simply don't care if the price to pay to force their opinions on others is the image and integrity of an innocent third party. And they do it with pretense moral superiority. It pisses me off and you surely saw that.
 

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Do you feel better after your rant?

A bit. But generally I feel better when I slap myself in the face while playing -- some people in my club think I should be sent to the funny farm -- so that is not necessarily a good thing.
 

Moxie

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I know you don't like it but for the sake of debate it is better to run down point by point:




Disagree. I don't see that many times players blatantly calling an umpire a thief, specially given circumstances. Actually, the fact that one of the calmest phrases that she said was "you are a thief" made it all worst. They both new at the time that the whole world was (or later would) watching. This was probably the greatest offense a player ever made to an umpire -- it would be so even if he had not given her yet another code violation. People are making a giant leap in argumentation when they say that because once some guy cursed at the umpire, then this is the norm, then they "normally" get away with it. That's a whole different conversation -- which still should not matter, because it is still something on the lines of "if someone else broke the law, then I can break it too".




Actually, I did think that Federer behaved like an asshole there (if you are referring to the 2009 final). Of course that when you wrote "you should", I wanted to answer simply "no". Point is that is not clear cut that behaving like an asshole means a code violation -- he could get one, but it is a far more subjective case than this one.



Answering the whole two paragraphs that finish on this line: Yes, Moxie, people have prejudices, and you know I agree with you on that. But the whole point here is that people are accusing one specific individual of making a bad call based on his own prejudice. You are always the first to defend players who are accused without proof... how cannot you see the giant injustice in painting one guy trying to do his job as a racist because other people have prejudices?

You referred to a long list of past cases which I frankly don't know in detail, but I will simply believe you when you say Williams was unfairly treated on all those. You give them as justification for William's attitude, and, ok, fine for me. It can justify her actions, I understand it from a human perspective, but it still does not make her the one with a point here. Are you really saying that Ramos should stop and think "hmmm.. poor Serena, she's been so wrongly treated, let's give her a break"... it does not make sense.



Sorry, Moxie, but I am no hypocrite. You know people had already turn this in to a political debate. Yourself has written "People are polarized between seeing this as a "letter of the law" question, or a wider scope problem." This is basically the definition of a conservative x liberal debate. If it was a logic, honest debate, I would be happy to participate -- and join the liberal side. And, yes, I know that a lot fucking retarded prejudice-minded people are salivating because Serena Williams behaved that way and got punished. So, why in the world cannot we find a good example or prejudice to have this debate, instead of crucifying a guy who was doing his job?



Let's not forget that EVERYONE agreed that Lahyani was wrong on what he did. So it is not a question of "deserving". And, c'mon, Ramos tried quite hard to reason with her. He was, in fact, "gentle", using, for instance, words similar to that of Lahyani. When Serena told him she was no cheater, he put his hand to his heart and said, "I know that, Serena". He did that a lot of times. He was trying to talk to her when she ordered him to shut up, screaming.

Moxie, all I am saying from post 1 is: The umpire did his job. All I am protesting -- all that pisses me off - is to put it all down to his alleged "prejudice" and "sexism". There is prejudice in the world? Yes. There is sexism? Yes. Is this guy guilty of it, in this case? No. People simply don't care if the price to pay to force their opinions on others is the image and integrity of an innocent third party. And they do it with pretense moral superiority. It pisses me off and you surely saw that.
OK, so now you have put it in a format that requires me to do a lot of work, and I don't have the time or energy, now. I will say that I think you miss the point to say that I'm saying that Ramos is sexist or racist, more than the point is that the system is. I've told you I'm not trying to make it about Carlos Ramos. I'm exhausted from work and I'm not sure I can do this justice. And I'm not sure I want to spend the effort, tbh. I've argued these things with you guys before. You say that you recognize that there is racism and sexism in the world, but you don't approach it with empathy. You come at me with the aggression that I and my ilk present it with some sort of moral superiority. That is your interpretation. All I've asked for was some kind of empathy for a player who has been more than often aggrieved. I offer a rose. Don't ascribe to me aggression that I don't present, please. :rose:
 
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