Rogers Cup 2019, Montreal, Canada, ATP Masters 1000

[Moxie]

I'll address it for you because there is no double standard. Federer won Hamburg in 2004 and defended in 2005. It took till 2019 for Nadal to defend a title off clay. Nice try but fail. Epic fail.

My original point about double-standard was that Fiero is complaining that Fed and Djoker only ever defended one title on clay because Rafa is the clay GOAT...when in fact Roger is the grass GOAT and Novak probably the HC GOAT, so the difficulties for Rafa off-clay are compounded by that, as much as vice versa. I'm saying it cuts both ways, so not so much whining about how little Roger and Novak have been able to do on the dirt. That's the double standard.

 

[Front242]

My original point about double-standard was that Fiero is complaining that Fed and Djoker only ever defended one title on clay because Rafa is the clay GOAT...when in fact Roger is the grass GOAT and Novak probably the HC GOAT, so the difficulties for Rafa off-clay are compounded by that, as much as vice versa. I'm saying it cuts both ways, so not so much whining about how little Roger and Novak have been able to do on the dirt. That's the double standard.

Can't say Novak is the HC GOAT imo given Federer won 5 consecutive US Opens. Novak is probably the slow/medium HC GOAT but that's a different story. Overall Federer still has the edge given HC encompasses more than just slow/medium. Roger also has 11 HC slams, Novak 10 and though Novak is obviously more likely to add to his than Roger at his age, Roger has a more evenly balanced spread of 6 AOs and 5 USOs (consecutive. No one is winning 5 straight US Opens again anytime soon I guarantee). Novak by comparison has 7 of his HC slams at the AO and 3 USOs.

 

[Moxie]

Can't say Novak is the HC GOAT imo given Federer won 5 consecutive US Opens. Novak is probably the slow/medium HC GOAT but that's a different story. Overall Federer still has the edge given HC encompasses more than just slow/medium. Roger also has 11 HC slams, Novak 10 and though Novak is obviously more likely to add to his than Roger at his age, Roger has a more evenly balanced spread of 6 AOs and 5 USOs (consecutive. No one is winning 5 straight US Opens again anytime soon I guarantee). Novak by comparison has 7 of his HC slams at the AO and 3 USOs.

OK, but you take my point: that Rafa's off-clay has been as challenged by two greats that excel on the other surfaces, so people can't just use Rafa's clay GOATness as the reason that ND and RF have failed to do as well on clay without acknowledging that Nadal has been hampered by having the other two, as well. Yes, Rafa has won 12 RG, which has left very few for others, but Fed and Novak have won a combined 10 YEC's (only counting since Rafa was eligible...Roger won a couple before that,) so, by the same token, not leaving much window of opportunity for Nadal. For all the sneering that goes on at Rafa's HC/grass records, there seems to be an equal amount of perfunctory excuse-making re: the other two, just because of Nadal's excellence on clay, and no one ever looks at the double standard.

 

[Front242]

OK, but you take my point: that Rafa's off-clay has been as challenged by two greats that excel on the other surfaces, so people can't just use Rafa's clay GOATness as the reason that ND and RF have failed to do as well on clay without acknowledging that Nadal has been hampered by having the other two, as well. Yes, Rafa has won 12 RG, which has left very few for others, but Fed and Novak have won a combined 10 YEC's (only counting since Rafa was eligible...Roger won a couple before that,) so, by the same token, not leaving much window of opportunity for Nadal. For all the sneering that goes on at Rafa's HC/grass records, there seems to be an equal amount of perfunctory excuse-making re: the other two, just because of Nadal's excellence on clay, and no one ever looks at the double standard.

It's not sneering at his HC/grass records, it's the truth. He hasn't ever won the YEC/WTF and has only 4 grass titles. Federer has 11 clay court titles and Djokovic has 14. The supposed double standard was mentioned with regard to Nadal never defending a title off clay till 2019 and I merely pointed out the truth: that is, Federer defended on clay in 2005 at Hamburg, having won the year before also. You can see it as a dig but there really isn't any need to since it's the truth.

 

[Moxie]

It's not sneering at his HC/grass records, it's the truth. He hasn't ever won the YEC/WTF and has only 4 grass titles. Federer has 11 clay court titles and Djokovic has 14. The supposed double standard was mentioned with regard to Nadal never defending a title off clay till 2019 and I merely pointed out the truth: that is, Federer defended on clay in 2005 at Hamburg, having won the year before also. You can see it as a dig but there really isn't any need to since it's the truth.

Right...but see what you just did there? Nadal has 4 grass titles. Somehow you fail to mention that he has 20 HC titles. That's 24 titles on their best surfaces, when they have 11 and 14 on his. Which only begins to talk about the quality of his HC/Grass titles, compared to their clay ones. They have 1 Major each on clay. He has 6 Majors on HC/Grass.

They have double-teamed him over the years, including his being sandwiched in between them in the stretch of their careers. Which starts with Roger having some time to himself, and Novak having a couple of pretty free and easy years on his. I'm just saying folks should look at it fairly.

 

[Front242]

Right...but see what you just did there? Nadal has 4 grass titles. Somehow you fail to mention that he has 20 HC titles. That's 24 titles on their best surfaces, when they have 11 and 14 on his. Which only begins to talk about the quality of his HC/Grass titles, compared to their clay ones. They have 1 Major each on clay. He has 6 Majors on HC/Grass.

They have double-teamed him over the years, including his being sandwiched in between them in the stretch of their careers. Which starts with Roger having some time to himself, and Novak having a couple of pretty free and easy years on his. I'm just saying folks should look at it fairly.

Indoor hard court is Nadal's worst surface and not grass and he has 1 indoor hard court title Outdoor HC is Nadal's 2nd best surface so of course he has lots of titles there. Clay is Federer's worst surface and he has 11 titles, clay is Djokovic's worst and he has 14 titles. There is no double standard. Only facts. Federer also doesn't have the benefit of 3 masters on grass. In fact there are none and this has been discussed many times. He's at a considerable disadvantage there.

Fact: Federer and Djokovic are much better on their worst surface (clay) than Nadal is on his worst (indoor HC).

 

[Andy22]

I'll address it for you because there is no double standard. Federer won Hamburg in 2004 and defended in 2005. It took till 2019 for Nadal to defend a title off clay. Nice try but fail. Epic fail.

Yea where is because Federer did not beat nadal in Hamburg 2004/2005 and that was 14 years ago, Nadal just did his defence on hard courts , and stronger draw by the way so that Federer back in the day won Hamburg he's still only def once on clay just like nadal. Plus it's way more awesome Nadal def a hard court title at 33 years Age than Federer doing in he's early 20s. Djokovic better hard court player than Federer by the way it shows everytime they play each other. Lol grass Nadal worse surface because indoor not a surface + where's no grand slam in these conditions next thing you be saying is that the moon is surface of tennis

 

[Andy22]

Indoor hard court is Nadal's worst surface and not grass and he has 1 indoor hard court title Outdoor HC is Nadal's 2nd best surface so of course he has lots of titles there. Clay is Federer's worst surface and he has 11 titles, clay is Djokovic's worst and he has 14 titles. There is no double standard. Only facts. Federer also doesn't have the benefit of 3 masters on grass. In fact there are none and this has been discussed many times. He's at a considerable disadvantage there.

Fact: Federer and Djokovic are much better on their worst surface (clay) than Nadal is on his worst (indoor HC).

Indoor hard courts is not a surface dumb ass, it's just hard courts with roofs on top, technicaly, Nadal worse surface is hard courts which he's won 20 titles to Djokovic 14, Federer 11, sorry but your wrong little boy Nadal is the best on his worse surface of the big 3. Plus indoor courts not matter because they have no grand slam event, so that you even talking about? I show you something all the tennis surfaces- hard courts, clay grass that's all, can't put a roof as a surface dumb much? It would have been better if said conditions of the match like raining or the roof being on.

 

[Front242]

Yea where is because Federer did not beat nadal in Hamburg 2004/2005 and that was 14 years ago, Nadal just did his defence on hard courts , and stronger draw by the way so that Federer back in the day won Hamburg he's still only def once on clay just like nadal. Plus it's way more awesome Nadal def a hard court title at 33 years Age than Federer doing in he's early 20s. Djokovic better hard court player than Federer by the way it shows everytime they play each other.

How do you figure it's way more awesome that it took him till to 2019 to do it? Look, just be happy he erased that terrible stat and I won't bug the Nadal camp about it any further but trying to make out that it's better that it took him years to do it is just plain silly and, no, the Hamburg draw was much stronger, plus it was best of 5. Masters were way more prestigious back then when the finals were best of 5. They have it much easier these days which is another reason that Djokovic's numbers are neutralized given he never won a best of 5 masters event, only Federer and Nadal have from the active players on tour. The finals were like slams then. Way harder to win.

 

[Front242]

Indoor hard courts is not a surface dumb ass, it's just hard courts with roofs on top, technicaly, Nadal worse surface is hard courts which he's won 20 titles to Djokovic 14, Federer 11, sorry but your wrong little boy Nadal is the best on his worse surface of the big 3. Plus indoor courts not matter because they have no grand slam event, so that you even talking about? I show you something all the tennis surfaces- hard courts, clay grass that's all, can't put a roof as a surface dumb much? It would have been better if said conditions of the match like raining or the roof being on.

Er no. Hard court is Nadal's second best surface. Good one to call me dumbass when you get that basic fact wrong and yes, indoor hard court is a surface.

 

[Andy22]

Yea where is because Federer did not beat nadal in Hamburg 2004/2005 and that was 14 years ago, Nadal just did his defence on hard courts , and stronger draw by the way so that Federer back in the day won Hamburg he's still only def once on clay just like nadal. Plus it's way more awesome Nadal def a hard court title at 33 years Age than Federer doing in he's early 20s. Djokovic better hard court player than Federer by the way it shows everytime they play each other. PS

How do you figure it's way more awesome that it took him till to 2019 to do it? Look, just be happy he erased that terrible stat and I won't bug the Nadal camp about it any further but trying to make out that it's better that it took him years to do it is just plain silly and, no, the Hamburg draw was much stronger, plus it was best of 5. Masters were way more prestigious back then when the finals were best of 5. They have it much easier these days which is another reason that Djokovic's numbers are neutralized given he never won a best of 5 masters event, only Federer and Nadal have from the active players on tour. The finals were like slams then. Way harder to win.

Sorry but Nadal doing it in his 30s is way better, than Federer against weaks serve bots players like Andy Roddick, Hewitt Safin are all hard court players, not clay players like Djokovic, zverev Federer Medvedev are way better. Tennis overall has more lower ranked better players like the one who beat Federer in last week.

 

[Andy22]

Er no. Hard court is Nadal's second best surface. Good one to call me dumbass when you get that basic fact wrong and yes, indoor hard court is a surface.

No it's not a surface, don't believe look it up a surface is something thats on the ground, but your too dumb to know that, so Will let Google show you go to tennis court Wikipedia, they will say grass, clay hard courts because there is no fourth surface in tennis. plus like I said indoor courts have no slam, so it not matter little boy, finally grass is just one month so it's hard to say for which surface Nadal better at 100% could be both.

 

[DarthFed]

No it's not a surface, don't believe look it up a surface is something thats on the ground, but your too dumb to know that, so Will let Google show you go to tennis court Wikipedia, they will say grass, clay hard courts because there is no fourth surface in tennis. plus like I said indoor courts have no slam, so it not matter little boy, finally grass is just one month so it's hard to say for which surface Nadal better at 100% could be both.

Surface talk is overrated, what it really comes down to is "playing conditions". And we know indoors plays quite differently to outdoors, generally with a lower bounce. And this makes Rafa's game way less effective.

Bottom line which Rafa fans can't dispute is that Roger and Novak are far better than him in all playing conditions where the ball doesn't bounce extremely high (clay).

 

[Andy22]

Surface talk is overrated, what it really comes down to is "playing conditions". And we know indoors plays quite differently to outdoors, generally with a lower bounce. And this makes Rafa's game way less effective.

Bottom line which Rafa fans can't dispute is that Roger and Novak are far better than him in all playing conditions where the ball doesn't bounce extremely high (clay).

Thats what I'm getting at finally someone with brains, cells of course you could be right but Nadal has played well in windy conditions in big matches

 

[DarthFed]

Thats what I'm getting at finally someone with brains, cells of course you could be right but Nadal has played well in windy conditions in big matches

Lol, it's actually the opposite of what you're getting at. You are grouping indoor HC with outdoor HC because they are both hard courts.

 

[Moxie]

Surface talk is overrated

Did YOU actually just post that? The man who almost literally posts/complains about the surface at nearly every event?

 

[DarthFed]

Did YOU actually just post that? The man who almost literally posts/complains about the surface at nearly every event?

I complain about playing conditions at a lot of them...there is a difference.

 

[Moxie]

I complain about playing conditions at a lot of them...there is a difference.

Between complaining about surface conditions endlessly and saying that surface conditions are overrated seems like an enormous middle ground, so do please explain.

 

[DarthFed]

Between complaining about surface conditions endlessly and saying that surface conditions are overrated seems like an enormous middle ground, so do please explain.

Read the exchange between Front and Nadalgoat above. Front was correctly making a distinction between playing conditions of indoor hards vs. outdoor hards while Nadalgoat wanted to group them together. I have always been talking about playing conditions when I talk about "surfaces." The surface at Wimbledon is grass, like other tournaments, surface at Madrid is clay like other clay tournaments. Surface at Indian Wells is hard court like YEC. But if you are comparing the playing conditions of those tournaments it is a pretty large difference.

 

[Moxie]

Read the exchange between Front and Nadalgoat above. Front was correctly making a distinction between playing conditions of indoor hards vs. outdoor hards while Nadalgoat wanted to group them together. I have always been talking about playing conditions when I talk about "surfaces." The surface at Wimbledon is grass, like other tournaments, surface at Madrid is clay like other clay tournaments. Surface at Indian Wells is hard court like YEC. But if you are comparing the playing conditions of those tournaments it is a pretty large difference.

I think I've been saying that for years. And for the record, I don't agree with Nadalgoat that indoor HC is not a separate surface. But I don't remember you hitting playing conditions so hard vis-a-vis some of those surfaces. You moan so loud about the grass at Wimbledon that my speakers short out, even though grass is a natural surface and is subject to weather and wear.